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Nature of Man

mindlight

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Is Theistic Evolution corroding the dignity of man by asserting positions contrary to the Biblical understanding of who we are?
- man as an evolving animal improved by billions of years of evolution versus special creation made in the image of God with a mission from God who has fallen due to sin
- by asserting a scientific interpretation of our origins over the Biblical view eroding respect for scripture
- by asserting a scientific approach to the appraisal of humanity results in a reductionist and materialistic vision of human kind that is in effect merely secular.

The result being a false and secular view of human worth, dignity, origins and potential.

We are special creations and miracles not animals with extra mental processes who evolved by surviving in a brutal competition for resources with other now extinct animals.
 
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Willtor

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Is Theistic Evolution corroding the dignity of man by asserting positions contrary to the Biblical understanding of who we are?

No. It is not doing so.

- man as an evolving animal improved by billions of years of evolution versus special creation made in the image of God with a mission from God who has fallen due to sin

No. It does not.

- by asserting a scientific interpretation of our origins over the Biblical view eroding respect for scripture

No. It does not.

- by asserting a scientific approach to the appraisal of humanity results in a reductionist and materialistic vision of human kind that is in effect merely secular.

No. It does not.

The result being a false and secular view of human worth, dignity, origins and potential.

No. It does not.

We are special creations and miracles not animals with extra mental processes who evolved by surviving in a brutal competition for resources with other now extinct animals.

We are special creations _and_ we are animals with extra mental processes (etc., etc., etc.).
 
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T

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Is Theistic Evolution corroding the dignity of man by asserting positions contrary to the Biblical understanding of who we are?

No.... if anything, it's improving the dignity of man.

- man as an evolving animal improved by billions of years of evolution versus special creation made in the image of God with a mission from God who has fallen due to sin

What exactly is "the image of God"?

- by asserting a scientific interpretation of our origins over the Biblical view eroding respect for scripture

If "respect" means "read the whole thing as literally as a cookbook," then it must be "eroded" as you put it so that we may grow in our faith.

- by asserting a scientific approach to the appraisal of humanity results in a reductionist and materialistic vision of human kind that is in effect merely secular.
The result being a false and secular view of human worth, dignity, origins and potential.


I disagree... I see nothing reductionist about exploring the mechanisms through which our Creator brought us to where we are.

We are special creations and miracles not animals with extra mental processes who evolved by surviving in a brutal competition for resources with other now extinct animals.

If the evidence says otherwise, will you maintain your belief in your own "special"-ness out of vanity?
 
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ebia

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Is Theistic Evolution corroding the dignity of man by asserting positions contrary to the Biblical understanding of who we are?
No. At least in part because none of the positions you put are those asserted by TE.

- man as an evolving animal improved by billions of years of evolution versus special creation made in the image of God with a mission from God who has fallen due to sin
Should read more like:
"man as an evolved animal ... made in the image of God in, for and through creation and fallen due to sin verses special creation." In particular, those with a TE view are at least as likely, generally more likely, to follow through with the idea of man being in the image of God in creation where as others are inclined to pay no more than lip-service to the idea.

- by asserting a scientific interpretation of our origins over the Biblical view eroding respect for scripture
The two aren't in competition but are complementary. "The car goes down the road because igniting petrol in the cylinders pushes pistons that ultimately turn the wheels" does not deny "The car goes down the road so that John can get to work".


- by asserting a scientific approach to the appraisal of humanity results in a reductionist and materialistic vision of human kind that is in effect merely secular.
Again, not a proposition that TEs make. Scientific appraisal is not an alternative to theological appraisal.

We are special creations and miracles not animals with extra mental processes who evolved by surviving in a brutal competition for resources with other now extinct animals.
Those two are not an either/or but a both and.
 
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ebia

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TE people HAVE TO separate human body from human mind, as if the body is snatched by the mind. Otherwise, TE is broke.
No they don't. Again I would say that while neither position necessitates creating a false dichotomy between body and mind, if one were to honestly investigate one would find that literal creationists were more likely to create such a sub-biblical reading than those with a TE perspective.

It's literalists who create the (unhistorical and unbiblical) dichotomy "God or natural processes". TEs are quite happy to say "both"; that natural processes are the constant outpouring of God's creative word.
 
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gluadys

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Is Theistic Evolution corroding the dignity of man by asserting positions contrary to the Biblical understanding of who we are?

No.


- man as an evolving animal improved by billions of years of evolution versus special creation made in the image of God with a mission from God who has fallen due to sin


Since evolution is not an improvement program the word "adapted" would be a better adjective than "improved". And there is no need to insist on a dichotomy between an evolved humanity and a humanity made in the image of God. It is not an either-or choice, but a both-and inclusiveness.


- by asserting a scientific interpretation of our origins over the Biblical view eroding respect for scripture

It is not a TE position to place scientific interpretations over the biblical view, so there is no erosion of respect for scripture. If anything there is more respect for scripture when it is not forced into a concordist straight-jacket.


- by asserting a scientific approach to the appraisal of humanity results in a reductionist and materialistic vision of human kind that is in effect merely secular.

Again, not a TE position. Perhaps you need to learn more about evolutionary creationism so that you don't present strawman caricatures that have no basis in what evolutionary creationists actually believe.



We are special creations and miracles not animals with extra mental processes who evolved by surviving in a brutal competition for resources with other now extinct animals.


Darwin stressed (perhaps overstressed) competition in the struggle for life, but he also noted that it was very seldom brutal. I always get a kick out of the idea of one blade of grass "brutally" competing with another.

And, as ought to be well known by now, species who specialize in mutual cooperation are often the most successful in the "brutal" competition for resources.

Evolution is a lot more nuanced than Tennyson's vision of nature red in tooth and claw.
 
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juvenissun

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No they don't. Again I would say that while neither position necessitates creating a false dichotomy between body and mind, if one were to honestly investigate one would find that literal creationists were more likely to create such a sub-biblical reading than those with a TE perspective.

It's literalists who create the (unhistorical and unbiblical) dichotomy "God or natural processes". TEs are quite happy to say "both"; that natural processes are the constant outpouring of God's creative word.

This is the irony of TE:

Human body has to be separated from Human mind. Because E could not explain the existence of human mind.

Human body has to be integrated with human mind. Because if not, T and E will be separated.

In my debate on evolution, I only aim at E, not TE. TE is a compromise and is weird. If E is wrong, TE is wrong. If T is wrong, TE is wrong again.
 
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crawfish

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This is the irony of TE:

Human body has to be separated from Human mind. Because E could not explain the existence of human mind.

Human body has to be integrated with human mind. Because if not, T and E will be separated.

There is definitely a separation between body and soul (which is what I assume you mean by "mind"). This only makes sense - so much of our psyche is based on elements that are inherited or fashioned by our past experiences, from the physical world - it is the internal connection inside us to the divine that is our true soul.

Likewise, our bodies are too fundamentally tied to time and too fundamentally limited to be our eternal bodies. This body will pass away to dust; but the body that inherits my eternal soul will be perfect in every way.


In my debate on evolution, I only aim at E, not TE. TE is a compromise and is weird. If E is wrong, TE is wrong. If T is wrong, TE is wrong again.

Problem is, E doesn't even have to be completely right to make YEC wrong. It only needs to be a little right. YEC is walking on very tender scientific ground, where they are forced to ignore or discredit observable evidence.

TE is a position of faith. Just like any Christian, we place our faith in the T. We just cannot deny the E.
 
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crawfish

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Is Theistic Evolution corroding the dignity of man by asserting positions contrary to the Biblical understanding of who we are?

As so many have already answered you, no.

- man as an evolving animal improved by billions of years of evolution versus special creation made in the image of God with a mission from God who has fallen due to sin

Doesn't special creation mean "intended creation"? Why would it not be special creation if God used billions of years of evolution to bring out something He intended? Note that we are not separated by the animals by our DNA or our physical makeup or our tools or our speech; we are separated because of the fact of our eternal souls.

Nothing changes as far as man's fallen state or ultimate mission with TE; only the method of origin.

- by asserting a scientific interpretation of our origins over the Biblical view eroding respect for scripture

Very wrong. I would argue that TE forces a very high respect of scripture; that of not reading rationalism into it. By separating scripture from scientific scrutiny, we are free to read it as it was intended by the original authors; using the worldviews and stylistic viewpoints of their time, which were also intended. Creationism, and in particular YEC, must force interpretations and meanings that could not have possibly be intended because they must make the scriptures rational as well as spiritual in order to satisfy their biases.

- by asserting a scientific approach to the appraisal of humanity results in a reductionist and materialistic vision of human kind that is in effect merely secular.

Not if God's in the picture. A God who could create in slow, tiny steps, over billions of years, is every bit as amazing (and perhaps more) than a God who simply "poof"s things into existence.

The result being a false and secular view of human worth, dignity, origins and potential.

Again, we believe in the same things (except origins). As often happens, you are confusing us with atheistic/naturalistic evolutionists, or thinking that they somehow speak for us.

We are special creations and miracles

True from a TE point of view.

not animals with extra mental processes who evolved by surviving in a brutal competition for resources with other now extinct animals.

Again, we were intended by God as His creation and have been imbued with His spiritual image. Despite our origins.
 
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mindlight

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We are special creations _and_ we are animals with extra mental processes (etc., etc., etc.).

This contradicts the distinction made in the Biblical account in Genesis 1 and 2 between man and animals. Your version of special creation becomes a construct that you force onto scripture.
 
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mindlight

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What exactly is "the image of God"?

Jesus is the Image of the Invisible God. We image God in a different way to the completeness with which Christ does it. But Free agency, Moral culpability, rational thought, artistic creative abilities would distinguish us from animals for instance. Animals are not made in the image of God.


If "respect" means "read the whole thing as literally as a cookbook," then it must be "eroded" as you put it so that we may grow in our faith.
Very TE, we evolve to an understanding above the Almighties, we ascend to a place higher than the throne of God. This is not about a version of spiritual maturity that can disregard the meaning of the Bible Text for the sake of its own reading of what constitutes progress or self-improvement.

I see nothing reductionist about exploring the mechanisms through which our Creator brought us to where we are.

Nor I. What is reductionist is the assertion of these speculative theories over and above the scriptural version of mans origins and essential dignity by rereading the text to fit the scientific consensus. This misreading of scripture constitutes a reduction in the dignity of man by failing to recognise the primacy of the Divine in that dignity


If the evidence says otherwise, will you maintain your belief in your own "special"-ness out of vanity?

The primary evidence here - where science is not qualified to speak with any certainty is scripture
 
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mindlight

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In particular, those with a TE view are at least as likely, generally more likely, to follow through with the idea of man being in the image of God in creation where as others are inclined to pay no more than lip-service to the idea.

But they distort its meaning by misreading the text in accordance with the modern scientific consensus rather than its intended meaning. The image of God becomes something different when scientific argument and observation is regarded as primary over Gods revelation.

The two aren't in competition but are complementary. "The car goes down the road because igniting petrol in the cylinders pushes pistons that ultimately turn the wheels" does not deny "The car goes down the road so that John can get to work".

Both accounts say the car goes down the road - an historical assertion. The creation account asserts a beginning to creation- e.g. a time before which nothing existed except God. This is an historical fact I hope that you accept yet you will not accept the other historical implications of the account.


Again, not a proposition that TEs make. Scientific appraisal is not an alternative to theological appraisal.

Those two are not an either/or but a both and.

Scientific appraisals of our origins betray the scientific method by asserting that the same level of proof that can be applied to phenomena now can be applied to the discussion of our origins. The evidence from a scientific point of view is degraded, incomplete and subject to too many unknown variables to be proper science. One cannot argue by analogy to try and understand what is a totally unique event- the creation of man.

If its not proper science then talk of complementary language styles becomes redundant. We have the eyewitness account of the scriptures inspired by God and we have pseudo science posing as religion and asserting truthes it cannot know with out divine revelation.
 
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mindlight

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Doesn't special creation mean "intended creation"? Why would it not be special creation if God used billions of years of evolution to bring out something He intended? Note that we are not separated by the animals by our DNA or our physical makeup or our tools or our speech; we are separated because of the fact of our eternal souls.

This is a very reasonable argument and if God intended us as special creations which he patiently worked towards over billions of years would be truly amazing. The problem is that this is not what the Bible actually says or means by special creation. Its a reading of the scientific view onto the text and then an attempt to rationalise the meaning of the text to fit that scientific theory.

Nothing changes as far as man's fallen state or ultimate mission with TE; only the method of origin.

Ones whole hermeneutical approach to scripture changes with this interpretation.

Very wrong. I would argue that TE forces a very high respect of scripture; that of not reading rationalism into it. By separating scripture from scientific scrutiny, we are free to read it as it was intended by the original authors; using the worldviews and stylistic viewpoints of their time, which were also intended. Creationism, and in particular YEC, must force interpretations and meanings that could not have possibly be intended because they must make the scriptures rational as well as spiritual in order to satisfy their biases.

Most TEs will accept the historical nature of the resurrection of Jesus or of his creation miracles. But they analyse the first chapters of Genesis into a work of literary theological fiction to avoid the tensions they are afraid will break their faith with the scientific consensus among their intellectual peers in the secular universities. You believe in the same God I do without accepting the full implications of what that means about the levels of deception in the modern academic world
 
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ebia

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This is the irony of TE:

Human body has to be separated from Human mind. Because E could not explain the existence of human mind.

Human body has to be integrated with human mind. Because if not, T and E will be separated.

In my debate on evolution, I only aim at E, not TE. TE is a compromise and is weird. If E is wrong, TE is wrong. If T is wrong, TE is wrong again.
Sorry, but that makes no sense to me. It just looks like a set of claims setup to be demolished - a strawman in other words.
 
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ebia

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But they distort its meaning by misreading the text in accordance with the modern scientific consensus rather than its intended meaning.
You presuppose all sorts of unwarranted assumptions there:
a) that the TE understanding is a distortion
b) that the TE understanding is about reading "in accordance with the modern scientific concensus"
c) that your reading is the "intended reading"
d) (sentence below) that TEs are putting scientific argument as primary over Gods scripture.

I don't accept that any of those are true.

The image of God becomes something different when scientific argument and observation is regarded as primary over Gods revelation.
I couldn't say, because I'm not regarding scientific argument as primary. But I would say that there is no substantive difference in the the understanding of Image of God between thoughtful Christians regardless of position on evolution. I would say that "image of God" is far more often forgotten except as lip service amongst literalists than TEs.

Both accounts say the car goes down the road - an historical assertion.
By choice or accident you've avoided the point of my analogy.

The creation account asserts a beginning to creation- e.g. a time before which nothing existed except God. This is an historical fact I hope that you accept yet you will not accept the other historical implications of the account.
I fully accept the implications I find in the early Genesis accounts, but I don't find them to be historical but theological accounts.

Scientific appraisals of our origins betray the scientific method by asserting that the same level of proof that can be applied to phenomena now can be applied to the discussion of our origins. The evidence from a scientific point of view is degraded, incomplete and subject to too many unknown variables to be proper science.
I don't agree, but I didn't join the conversation to argue the relative merits of evolutionary science but to correct the misrepresentations in the opening post.
 
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gluadys

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Ones whole hermeneutical approach to scripture changes with this interpretation.

And what would be wrong with that?

Scripture does not prescribe any single hermeneutical approach. Interpretational principles are human devices that can and should be changed if they don't work well.
 
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Willtor

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This contradicts the distinction made in the Biblical account in Genesis 1 and 2 between man and animals. Your version of special creation becomes a construct that you force onto scripture.

Haha! Sure.

Anyway, this radical distinction between humans and other animals makes sense from a theological perspective, but it is indefensible apart from that. So, indeed, the Genesis account teaches there is something interesting and special about humanity's ability to relate to God. But if you're looking at natural history or the human genome or whatever else for it, you won't find it. Thus, I say that humans are both a special creation of God and yet do not have a separate natural origin from the rest of the animals.
 
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PaladinValer

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I'm an animal.

I'm a special animal; one that God ordained to have stewardship over His Creation by evolving it to have an intellectual capacity necessary to complete that job but, more importantly, to have a spirit that can act as an intermediary between that stewarded population with the Almighty.

Go green. It is God's Will.
 
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crawfish

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This is a very reasonable argument and if God intended us as special creations which he patiently worked towards over billions of years would be truly amazing. The problem is that this is not what the Bible actually says or means by special creation. Its a reading of the scientific view onto the text and then an attempt to rationalise the meaning of the text to fit that scientific theory.

I would argue that what the bible mentions as special creation does not involve process. I believe that this is a much more faithful reading of the scripture, based on what the original human author intended, than a reading from 20th century "rational" sensibilities.

Which leads to a misconception about TE's - that we are "reading scripture with a filter of modern science". This is untrue - since we reject that God was trying to place a modern, scientific worldview into scripture, we read scripture with NO deference to science. We read it a spiritual revelation of God to a human author, who penned that revelation in terms of his own history, culture, experiences and worldview. YEC's and OEC's, however, have adopted the concordist view - that scripture is written to express a scientific truth that was then-yet-uncovered. For instance, a YEC will read the verse
This is what God the LORD says--he who created the heavens and stretched them out, who spread out the earth and all that comes out of it, who gives breath to its people, and life to those who walk on it:
and believe this is God giving knowledge of an expanding universe. A TE would read this and believe the author was referring to the skies as they would appear to the original human author, i.e. stretched out to every horizon in every direction.

Ones whole hermeneutical approach to scripture changes with this interpretation.

Some certainly does, but much YEC theology is based on misinterpretations of scripture - a systematic theology where a base assumption is made and interpretation is guided by that assumption. I think a different hermeneutical approach is entirely called for, and in the end it does not alter the gospel of grace one bit.

Most TEs will accept the historical nature of the resurrection of Jesus or of his creation miracles. But they analyse the first chapters of Genesis into a work of literary theological fiction to avoid the tensions they are afraid will break their faith with the scientific consensus among their intellectual peers in the secular universities. You believe in the same God I do without accepting the full implications of what that means about the levels of deception in the modern academic world

I'm a TE who is not a scientist and does not need to answer to any secular scientific authority. Most of my closest friends are either creationists or those who don't know either way (and don't really care). Life would be easier for me if I'd accept OEC or YEC, but I would not be honest with myself if I did. There is enough evidence to prove to me that YEC is not possible, and OEC makes little sense. Either God created the universe over billions of years, or He created it to appear that way; and either way, YEC science is bunk and the secular scientists are closer to the truth.

I don't fool myself about the deceptive nature scientists OR theologians. I've seen enough dishonest, deceptive and misleading tactics used by YEC proponents that I do not trust them. I do not trust any individual scientist, but I do feel that the scientific method pretty much ensures that bad science will die. If evolutionary theory was a bunch of bunk and scientists knew it, then it would die a certain death (and would still not "prove" to atheists that there was a God). In the end, too many questions posed by things we know cannot be answered adequately by ID scientists for me to feel any other way.
 
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