Naturalism and Scientism

[Elioenai26]

The existence of the supernatural has no bearing on the question of metaphysical naturalism?

Not that I know of. In fact, the word has no connotation within the naturalistic framework, so why mention it?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Not that I know of. In fact, the word has no connotation within the naturalistic framework, so why mention it?

Because it bears on the question of metaphysical naturalism. I notice you haven't asked others to cease mentioning miracles and other supernatural phenomena.

 

[Elioenai26]

Because it bears on the question of metaphysical naturalism. I notice you haven't asked others to cease mentioning miracles and other supernatural phenomena.

You know why?

Because other people have a better understanding of said concepts than you do. They do not have to be convinced that the words and concepts are meaningful. They realize the inherent self-contradictory nature of logical positivism and shun from even insinuating that it is tenable.

That's why.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

You know why?

Because other people have a better understanding of said concepts than you do. They do not have to be convinced that the words and concepts are meaningful. They realize the inherent self-contradictory nature of logical positivism and shun from even insinuating that it is tenable.

That's why.

Others have also asked you to provide a definition for words such as "miracle", and yet you aren't slapping them with this red herring? You are being evasive.

 

[Elioenai26]

Others have also asked you to provide a definition for words such as "miracle", and yet you aren't slapping them with this red herring? You are being evasive.

Alright. If you say so.

Personally, I have nothing to evade at all. I know what naturalism is and I know what a miracle is. I have experienced the latter in my own life too many times to number. Of course, this means nothing to you because you do not know me. Nor can I prove it to you. Nor would I seek to if I were standing in front of you.

So what is it that you are seeking?

 

[Elioenai26]

Signing off for the night gents. Have a wonderful evening/night/morning.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Alright. If you say so.

Personally, I have nothing to evade at all. I know what naturalism is and I know what a miracle is. I have experienced the latter in my own life too many times to number. Of course, this means nothing to you because you do not know me. Nor can I prove it to you. Nor would I seek to if I were standing in front of you.

So what is it that you are seeking?

An answer to my question. If you have no reason to evade, you would have answered it several posts ago, either here in this thread or in the previous thread. The question is pertinent here because if someone is a naturalist they presumably have doubts about supernatural claims. Instead of merely casting aspersions on those doubts, you have the opportunity to address them.

 

[Elioenai26]

An answer to my question. If you have no reason to evade, you would have answered it several posts ago, either here in this thread or in the previous thread. The question is pertinent here because if someone is a naturalist they presumably have doubts about supernatural claims. Instead of merely casting aspersions on those doubts, you have the opportunity to address them.

Search through some of my posts here, there's over 1,500 of them. Im sure you'll find something in there regarding what you are looking for.

If not then start a new thread on supernatural.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Search through some of my posts here, there's over 1,500 of them. Im sure you'll find something in there regarding what you are looking for.

If not then start a new thread on supernatural.

This is perhaps the worst excuse you've used thus far. Perhaps next time you ask me a question - a question relevant to the topic of a thread - I will ask you to peruse through my 9000 posts to find your answer.

 

[Elioenai26]

This is perhaps the worst excuse you've used thus far. Perhaps next time you ask me a question - a question relevant to the topic of a thread - I will ask you to peruse through my 9000 posts to find your answer.

Don't worry sir, I assure you, I do not need to ask you anymore questions.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Don't worry sir, I assure you, I do not need to ask you anymore questions.

Nor do you apparently need to answer any questions either. So what exactly are you doing here?

 

[Elioenai26]

Nor do you apparently need to answer any questions either. So what exactly are you doing here?

Learning and seeking to understand various counter-perspectives to the Judeo - Christian worldview.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Learning and seeking to understand various counter-perspectives to the Judeo - Christian worldview.

To what end?


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Elioenai26]

To what end?


eudaimonia,

Mark

To the end that I might more effectively minister to those who are seeking the truth.

 

[Davian]

To the end that I might more effectively minister to those who are seeking the truth.

IOW, preach.

I would take it from your posts that by "seeking the truth", you actually mean "seeking religion".

I am not seeking religion.

 

[Elioenai26]

IOW, preach.

I would take it from your posts that by "seeking the truth", you actually mean "seeking religion".

I am not seeking religion.

I am glad. I do not seek religion either, nor do I seek to minister to others by presenting them with a set of religious doctrines and creeds that must be followed out of fear of reprisal.

If you call telling others about the good news of the gospel preaching, then I am a preacher, and I am most thankful for being able to do so.

 

[Davian]

I am glad. I do not seek religion either, nor do I seek to minister to others by presenting them with a set of religious doctrines and creeds that must be followed out of fear of reprisal.

Fear of reprisal from whom? You?

If you call telling others about the good news of the gospel preaching, then I am a preacher, and I am most thankful for being able to do so.

I didn't say you were seeking religion, but that you were preaching it. Preaching is the antithesis of discussion.

Do you think that the preaching of your particular religion as "truth" is appropriate for this forum?

 

[Elioenai26]

Fear of reprisal from whom? You?

Fear of reprisal from those who would lord it over them in legalistic zeal at the expense of graciousness, mercifulness, and love.

Preaching is the antithesis of discussion.

In the above you are wrongly assuming that preaching has only one connotation and that in which (a) is speaking (b) to (c) without allowing a response from (c) regarding (b).

However, if you are to look at the various uses of the word preach, you will surely be able to understand that the word has more than just the officious connotation. In fact, if you would recall my statement earlier made, you will notice that I told you specifically what I meant at 3:48pm today. It is given below to refresh your memory.

"telling others about the good news of the gospel..."

Therefore, your accusation of me preaching in a manner which prohibits discussion is false. In fact, I have engaged you in numerous posts over the past months regarding a whole array of topics. So far from my "preaching" being the antithesis of discussion, it has been the impetus for discussion.

You know this of course and what I think you really mean to say is that you believe anyone who speaks about God is preaching. This is a misconception that you have and one that needs to be ammended for it implies a stereotypical bias and prejudice against theists.

Do you think that the preaching of your particular religion as "truth" is appropriate for this forum?

Several things to note here:

1. This is a Christian Forum

2. This is a philosophy sub-forum

3. If someone asks me or speaks to me about miracles, then I am going to take the opportunity to share with them my knowledge regarding them.

4. I have previously stated that several of the reasons why I am here are to learn and to understand various counter-perspectives to the Judeo - Christian worldview to the end that I might more effectively minister to those who are seeking the truth.

Now if you have an indictment against me and feel I have broken the forum rules here, then report me to the admins.

But I will tell you, as long as I am here, wherever I am, I pray for the opportunity to witness to the grace and mercy and love of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

 

[Davian]

Fear of reprisal from those who would lord it over them in legalistic zeal at the expense of graciousness, mercifulness, and love.

I can't make sense of this.

In the above you are wrongly assuming that preaching has only one connotation and that in which (a) is speaking (b) to (c) without allowing a response from (c) regarding (b).

However, if you are to look at the various uses of the word preach, you will surely be able to understand that the word has more than just the officious connotation. In fact, if you would recall my statement earlier made, you will notice that I told you specifically what I meant at 3:48pm today. It is given below to refresh your memory.

"telling others about the good news of the gospel..."

Therefore, your accusation of me preaching in a manner which prohibits discussion is false. In fact, I have engaged you in numerous posts over the past months regarding a whole array of topics. So far from my "preaching" being the antithesis of discussion, it has been the impetus for discussion.

"Telling others" is not discussion. Antithesis is a counter-proposition. I did not say prohibit. Do not put words in my mouth.

You know this of course and what I think you really mean to say is that you believe anyone who speaks about God is preaching. This is a misconception that you have and one that needs to be ammended for it implies a stereotypical bias and prejudice against theists.

No, in this context, preaching would be "telling others" their opinions as fact. That this often applies to theists is inconsequential.

Several things to note here:

1. This is a Christian Forum

Note that I said "your particular religion". There are many different religions and denominations that fall under that umbrella, with further qualifiers of age of the earth and theistic evolution vs YEC etc.

Should you not respect your fellow theistic members of this site?

2. This is a philosophy sub-forum

And there are Christian-only sub-forums where your preaching may be subject to fewer challenges.

3. If someone asks me or speaks to me about miracles, then I am going to take the opportunity to share with them my knowledge regarding them.

I do not take issue with this. However, if they are presented as fact, then that will need to be substantiated.

4. I have previously stated that several of the reasons why I am here are to learn and to understand various counter-perspectives to the Judeo - Christian worldview to the end that I might more effectively minister to those who are seeking the truth.

That is in line with your claim of knowledge of the truth, a claim that you have yet to substantiate.

Now if you have an indictment against me and feel I have broken the forum rules here, then report me to the admins.

No, I had in mind the note on forum etiquette at the top of the forum:

"Christians should hold themselves to a higher standard given that this is a Christian site. Non Christians, lurkers, the weak of faith, etc. do read your posts which means that the impression you give is what they see."

But I will tell you, as long as I am here, wherever I am, I pray for the opportunity to witness to the grace and mercy and love of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Perhaps you should have prayed for the ability substantiate your claims.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Several things to note here:

1. This is a Christian Forum

2. This is a philosophy sub-forum

3. If someone asks me or speaks to me about miracles, then I am going to take the opportunity to share with them my knowledge regarding them.

I have offered you that opportunity on several occasions, and on each occasion you have conjured some excuse for why you will not share your understanding on the topic.