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Natural selection v Intelligent design

Jobar

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Stevevw said:
There were other things that the Judge either ignored or didn't take into consideration such as saying that ID is the same as creationism which is false and was established at the trial but ignored.

If there's any real difference between creationism and ID, it's never been apparent to me, nor was it to Judge Jones; a lot is said on that topic in that video.

I do admit that I haven't kept up with evo/creo debates in the past several years; I thought (and still do think) that the Dover case quashed ID pretty comprehensively, as any sort of respectable scientific theory. But if you want to give me 1 or 2 links which you find the most effective recent arguments for ID, I'll try to check them out when I have time. (And you'll need to do better than the two I read and commented on earlier; if it's something that EvoWiki has already addressed, it won't be much of a challenge.)
 
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stevevw

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Those sites were not to do with any support for scientific evidence for ID. They were just a commentary on the trial from a ID perspective. There's plenty of ID peer reviewed papers out there that give good account for themselves. In fact I think its since we have discovered more detail about the genome, physics and our universe that we are seeing the great design in things. Its getting harder for scientists to say that life and existence created itself somehow and naturalistic processes can account for the great complexity we are finding.

More and more we are seeing how life is coded with a very multi layered language that makes our greatest designed computers look like child's play. We see that our universe is so finely tuned that there are just to many things that would have to fall in the right place at the right time to create life and our planet. Just about everything is working to a law and pattern that is beyond any random chaos which comes from naturalistic processes. Here's a few to start with but there's plenty more if you need them. I've tried to give a cross section covering different areas.
The Coherence Of An Engineered World
http://www.witpress.com/elibrary/wit-transactions-on-ecology-and-the-environment/114/19279

The “Wow! signal” of the terrestrial genetic code
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0019103513000791
Self-organization vs. self-ordering events in life-origin models
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1571064506000224
The protein folds as platonic forms: new support for the pre-Darwinian conception of evolution by natural law.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12419661
Evidence Of Design In Bird Feathers And Avian Respiration
http://www.witpress.com/elibrary/dne-volumes/4/2/399

 
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Archaeopteryx

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Look at Table 1.
Which is what I've been saying, steve. This doesn't put evolution into doubt. It merely shows that the picture is more complicated than a strict version of the TOL implies, with additional sources of genetic variation. Contrary to what creationists claim, this is not a "death blow" to evolution.
Hang on, what do you expect evolution to rely on?
To my understanding, here he is addressing a very specific idea here about evolution, not evolution on the whole.
How does this cast doubt on evolution?
I'm not seeing how this casts doubt on evolution.
Again, how does this cast doubt on evolution?
Same question as above. It seems you are saying that because the picture is more nuanced and complex than previously imagined, that evolution is on the verge of being discarded. Yet your own source disagrees with this. He is optimistic that a more sophisticated understanding of evolutionary biology is on the horizon.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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For those who are interested, here are some more papers on HGT and evolution:

From Journal of Biology (2009;8:59):

From Proc. R. Soc. B. (2010;277:819-827):

From Current Opinion in Microbiology (2011;14(5):615-623):

From Trends in Genetics (2011;27(4):157-163):

From Front Cell Infect Microbiol. (2012;2:119):

From PNAS (2012;109(13):4962-4967):

From PNAS (2012;109(43):17513-17518):

From Annual Review of Genetics (2012;46:341-358):

From Trends in Genetics (2013;29(3):170-175):

From Science (2013;339(6124):1207-1210):

From Nature Reviews Genetics (2015;16:472-482):
 
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Archaeopteryx

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No... that doesn't appear to be happening. ID is not in the midst of some grand resurgence.
 
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stevevw

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Yes it does and you must be reading something different.[/quote]

I don't want to get into a debate about another person and what their true intentions are and what they meant by what they said. I didn't post the link for Koonin as proof that evolution is false. I posted it to show the variety of things that are questioning the Darwinian version of evolution. Most people agree that there is a form of evolution happening so I don't even say that evolution is completely false anyway. Its the extent of what some say evolution is capable of is the question and I posted Koonin appraisal of the many different areas that are questioning the the classic version. That version is being dismantled bit by bit with new discoveries.

What Koonin personally believes is another thing and not necessarily true. What he personally thinks is not why I posted that link. The fact is the evidence from other scientists he mentioned does question evolution to thee point that it most likely is not the main cause for change in animals. Even Koonin acknowledges those conclusions. But if you cant see that the article that is written by Koonin isn't at the very least showing that Darwinian evolution through mutations and natural selection and adaption is being challenged even to the point of playing much of a role at all in how creates change then you are not going to agree with what he is saying no matter what.

Its OK to say that this evidence only changes the fringe of evolution and the main core of it is still in tact. But that's is just not the case. Its the other way around. The main core of how mutations can evolve complex new abilities by creating new genes that were not there has very little evidence. Its the acquisition of new genetic abilities from other sources which are not Darwinian evolution that is said to be the main source which makes evolution a minor player if at all.

But what you are doing is only seeing one of my links and casting aside all the others. Look at this in terms of all the support I posted. Go in and check out the rest of the support and see if that states the same as you think. The main part of the support comes from the actual testing of whether mutations have the ability to evolve new complex abilities and that's where the best support is.

Koonin paper is only an additional source to show where the changes can come from because the tests have already shown that its not the cause for change in living things. So look at Koonins paper as a small part of all the support I posted and see it in that context rather than trying to single it out in isolation. Koonins personal opinion doesn't hold as much weight as the actual papers that show the tests done to disprove evolution.

But here is another statement from Koonin anyway. He definitely questions evolution and states that the one Darwin came up with is just about dead and buried and its time for a new version. But he doesn't know what that is at the moment. But its not from the type of evolution that Darwin states. The thing is you cant have your cake and eat it too. These articles are saying that other sources for the changes in creatures is the majority reason for how they change and Darwinian evolution is a minor reason.

So even if we say that there is some evolution happening its role isn't significant enough to account for everything that has and is being attributed to it by most scientists now. Its role isn't big enough to confidently say that It can crate something like a bird wing through random mutations and adaptations. Because if it could do that then its role would need to be dominate and strong and the evidence I posted shows its not.


The Origin at 150: is a new evolutionary synthesis in sight?

The discovery of pervasive HGT and the overall dynamics of the genetic universe destroys not only the Tree of Life as we knew it but also another central tenet of the Modern Synthesis inherited from Darwin, gradualism. In a world dominated by HGT, gene duplication, gene loss, and such momentous events as endosymbiosis, the idea of evolution being driven primarily by infinitesimal heritable changes in the Darwinian tradition has become untenable.

Equally outdated is the (neo)Darwinian notion of the adaptive nature of evolution: clearly, genomes show very little if any signs of optimal design, and random drift constrained by purifying in all likelihood contributes (much) more to genome evolution than Darwinian selection 16, 17. And, with pan-adaptationism, gone forever is the notion of evolutionary progress that undoubtedly is central to the traditional evolutionary thinking, even if this is not always made explicit.

The summary of the state of affairs on the 150th anniversary of the Origin is somewhat shocking: in the post-genomic era, all major tenets of the Modern Synthesis are, if not outright overturned, replaced by a new and incomparably more complex vision of the key aspects of evolution. So, not to mince words, the Modern Synthesis is gone.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2784144/

So clearly he is saying that Darwinian evolution as stated in the classic theory is gone, finished dead and buried. He is not saying that the main tenets of the theory are still there and just need adjustment. He is saying they are finished and need to be replaced by something else. That something else was discussed in his paper and they were not the type or mechanism that evolution is based on. They were non adaptive and selective processes and evolution's main tenet is Natural selection.
 
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stevevw

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No... that doesn't appear to be happening. ID is not in the midst of some grand resurgence.
Its not about a resurgence and I didn't think ID was really on the table anyway at any stage. Its just that as we see the finer details of life and existence it is showing more complexity than we ever imagined. That makes it harder to explain how that complexity could have come about by accident. The difficulties that science has has for a long time and as some say will always have is that they cant explain why some things are the way they are. Things like the finely tuned universe for life, how gravity can keep everything in its place ect and what they have discovered from quantum physics. All this is pointing to some sort of design and not just a random accident. But they didnt see this until they got to this point in their discoveries.
 
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Loudmouth

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Yes it does and you must be reading something different.

No it doesn't. The authors that you are referencing are saying that these other mechanisms should be a part of the theory of evolution.

I didn't post the link for Koonin as proof that evolution is false. I posted it to show the variety of things that are questioning the Darwinian version of evolution.

What Koonin is arguing for is a non-Darwinian theory of evolution, not a disproof of evolution. All of the mechanisms you are referring to are natural processes of mutation that are random with respect to fitness, and cause change over time in organisms. They are evolutionary mechanisms.

Its the extent of what some say evolution is capable of is the question and I posted Koonin appraisal of the many different areas that are questioning the the classic version. That version is being dismantled bit by bit with new discoveries.

You might as well be arguing that gravity is under question because Newton's Laws are not fully accurate.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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If your only point was that our understanding of evolutionary biology is advanced by new discoveries in comparative genomics, then I struggle to see the relevance this has to the overarching theme of the thread, which is titled "Natural selection v Intelligent design." How does this relate to intelligent design?
That doesn't appear to be what Koonin is saying. He states, "Darwin's paramount insight on the interplay between chance and order (introduced by natural selection) survived, even if in a new, much more complex and nuanced form, with specific contributions of different types of random processes and distinct types of selection revealed." He goes into detail in Table 1, which examines "The status of the central propositions of Darwinism-Modern Synthesis in the light of evolutionary genomics."
Look at Table 1! It explicitly contradicts what you are claiming here.

But what you are doing is side tracking again and trying to salvage a bit of support for evolution from one of my links and cast aside all the others again. Look at this in terms of all the support I posted.
Why should I go through every single link you post when, in almost every single instance in which I have done so, I have found that the authors' don't agree with what you're claiming?
In what way have I taken Koonin's paper out of context? You presented it as evidence and I showed you that the author doesn't seem to agree with what you're claiming.
No, steve. Don't misrepresent what Koonin is claiming.
Yes, and Koonin goes on to say:
This paper also includes a table that examines "The fate of the central tenets of (neo)Darwinism in the post-genomic era," which is well worth reading.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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Who said that it came about "by random accident"? You still think that's all evolution is?
 
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pshun2404

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Who said that it came about "by random accident"? You still think that's all evolution is?

IYO, was purpose, plan, or intent inherent when inanimate matter/energy became the building blocks for life? Did the information for how or governing how this would occur exist prior to this formation process, or was it by chance (when just the right molecules, in just the right environment, at the right moment, with the correct and necessary forces all in place...etc...)????
 
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Loudmouth

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IYO, was purpose, plan, or intent inherent when inanimate matter/energy became the building blocks for life?

No scientist is claiming that humans were produced by inanimate matter becoming the building blocks of life.

Also, if you claim that there is a purpose, plan, or intent behind the origin of life, then it is up to you to prove it. We don't have to disprove that which is unevidenced.


The laws of chemistry predate life, if that is what you are asking.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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We would expect to see similarities in the genetics of similar looking creatures.
Ah, no. Although there are fundamental similarities in the genetics of all creatures, those that look similar, or have similar features, are not necessarily closely related. When an different (e.g. isolated) ecosystems provide similar niches for exploitation, similar looking creatures with similar lifestyles may evolve independently. For example, the marsupial mammals of Australia; as well as unique marsupials like wallabies & kangaroos, there are (or were) marsupial dogs, cats, rats, etc., that looked and behaved similarly and occupied similar niches to non-marsupial dogs, cats, rats, etc., in other ecosystems. Also, some physical solutions are particularly well-suited for their job - like camera eyes, or flippers. It's called convergent evolution.

The transitions aren't 'perfect' because you only ever get occasional snapshots with fossilization, and paleontologists working with very limited data will inevitably get some things wrong until more data becomes available; genetic information has been a great help. However, pruning or re-arranging a few branches on the tree doesn't make it any less a tree.

There are cases of animals that are closely related through their genetics that don't look like they have morphed from each other as well.
That can happen too, though it's unusual among complex animals. Which ones do you find troubling?

So because of all this it makes you wonder if the picture isn't being selectively picked to build it that way.
Bear in mind that paleontology is a particularly competitive field because of the scope for major discoveries and career-making. This means that scepticism and challenge is the default approach to new claims and finds, and so frauds and errors are usually found out fairly quickly (particularly after some of the infamous attempts of earlier times), and there is huge incentive to overturn existing paradigms.

Please provide the relevant references or links to these tests.

Even if a very rare mutation that incurred some benefit could happen it has to keep on happening.
What makes you think so? If the originator of that mutation has viable offspring - and by definition, it has a better than average chance because of the mutation - it will propagate through them. That's a gross over-simplification, but the principle applies.

And in between that happening there would be many sick creatures that didn't make the grade all over the place.
That's partly how evolution works; the badly maladapted ones die without reproducing. Do remember that ALL creatures eventually die - and nearly all get sick. 99% of all species are now extinct.

I'm afraid that's too garbled to make sense of.

OK, having watched the video (8 wasted minutes of my life I won't get back), I see what you're talking about. They're implicitly assuming that all genetic evolutionary change depends on a kind of two-point mutation they say is rare; a claim that needs support - even assuming their calculations are correct - and for which no evidence is supplied.

The rest of the video is one long argument from incredulity, and the whole thing ignores all the painstaking lab studies that have traced mutations through breeding experiments, and through comparative examinations of genomes in the wild - many chains of mutations that have caused phenotypic variations have been traced.

We may not understand all the complexities of gene regulation and expression, but it's clear that if the claim about the point mutation mechanism described in the video is correct (although I've seen no evidence to support that), then changes due to mutations in the real world occur via different mechanisms. In other words, empirical evidence suggests that either they're wrong, or they've shown that the two-point mutation they describe is not the only mechanism for genetic evolution - and frankly I doubt anyone else thought it was.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Its just that as we see the finer details of life and existence it is showing more complexity than we ever imagined. That makes it harder to explain how that complexity could have come about by accident.
No it doesn't. For example, complexity is associated with non-linear dynamic systems (e.g. chaotic systems and systems involving self-organized criticality). Biological systems from individual cells to whole ecosystems have fractal & chaotic features and evidence of self-organized criticality, and there's a good case to be made that the processes underlying evolution are another example of that.

For an entertaining example of the fractal complexity of non-linear dynamic systems arising from trivially simple formulas, check out the Mandelbrot set.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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This false dichotomy is typical of creationist thinking.
 
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Jobar

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If we ever get to the point of explaining everything, and knowing why all things are the way they are, then science will be done. I think we can all agree that we're a long way from the end of that road, even presuming we can get there!

Sir Arthur Eddington said "Not only is the universe stranger than we imagine, it is stranger than we can imagine." Perhaps that's true; but the place of science is to continue to strive to not just imagine how the universe is, and works- but to understand it as well.

The trouble with creationism in any of its forms is that it would have us end that striving. Just saying 'goddidit' doesn't really answer any of our questions. I quite agree with you that the closer we look at life, and at the universe as a whole, the more complexity we see- but that just makes it more fascinating, doesn't it?
 
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stevevw

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I agree that science has helped us understand the world around us. If it wasn't for science we wouldn't have a lot of things. In fact it was the early who promoted scientific thought and many scientific advancements come from religious people. in early history.
http://blogs.nature.com/soapboxscie...much-to-both-christianity-and-the-middle-ages

WE can come a long way since then and accumulated knowledge has got us quickly to the point of the quantum world and sequencing DNA. We are peering deep into the universe and discovering many great mysteries. WE are now looking into things that are showing another strange world which is almost at the point of where something comes into existence from nothing. But any person religious or not is interested in discovering things. I think for religion it is interesting because this can help us see Gods creation and reveal His great design.

But I am not talking about creationism that some are mentioning here which can be a religion in itself. This can be blinkered to a doctrine of limited understanding and dogmatic beliefs. I dont have any particular beliefs but like to investigate things no matter what the outcomes may be. If anything I probably lean towards ID which is based on the science. But still I am not an avid supporter of the ID philosophy. I like science and investigating things as well. But science or at least humans can make science a religion as well and hold onto certain beliefs that are not necessarily true. The frame of thinking that everything has to to completely verified before you can trust in it can hold you back from discovering some things that may give you an insight into other dimensions of life.
 
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stevevw

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I am not sure of that. It seems the evidence points to certain laws and codes that were in place from an early time in history that everything works to. It may appear that it is self creating but it still draws on those laws as the basic driving force which allows everything to bloom out from this. The evidence for evolution show that mutations are primarily a cost and loss of info and not a creator of more complex systems and functional ability. This is the opposite of evolution.

The evidence for what we see in the universe and existence itself shows order and precision which doesn't come from a random naturalistic process. Inorganic matter is just that and has no creative ability at all. Yet we are told to believe that matter can just about create itself just like life almost into a more complex well orchestrated existence. If anything everything is heading in the opposite direction through entropy. Even our genomes.
 
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pshun2404

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Yes already extant laws governed these processes, thank you...I agree...

Where did these laws come from or how did these pre-developmental laws come to be (that matter/energy adheres to)? Any thoughts?

Also I was addressing Arche's post by that question (and typically, rather than taking a stand pulled the wishy washy false dichotomy argument....while I know neither side has time or space to post the vast library of all possibility and fact as to what is involved). I asked him if he thought or considered plan or purpose to the formation of living form. I did not assert it WAS so (though that's what I see as proper interpretation of the evidence we do have)...but the obvious similarity of form and function, and the lawful predictability of process and change, CAN BE seen in this way. And I do not care if all see it this way or not because many are interpreting to deny such a possibility.

Questioning is what leads to progress...

Paul
 
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Loudmouth

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Yes already extant laws governed these processes, thank you...I agree...

Where did these laws come from or how did these pre-developmental laws come to be (that matter/energy adheres to)?

Do you apply the same conditions to all of the scientific theories you accept? Do we have to evidence the origin of the universe in order to accept the Germ Theory of Disease?
 
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