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Natural selection v Intelligent design

stevevw

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I never sought to deputise Einstein to my argument.
But now you are.
He called your beliefs "childish," dude.
So does he believe in God or not. He also has quotes saying he believes in God. He believes that life and existence is the result of an intelligent designer. So which of his quotes are correct. Overall it seems he believes in God or ID so this would be more in line with my views than an atheists.
That's not what he said.
I thought he was saying that there was design in nature from his quotes.

"In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views."
In other words he is saying I dont have the view that there is no God and believe God is responsible for the harmony of the cosmos.

And so he calls some a child for believing in God yet then he says an intelligent person should believe in God. Speaking of children. Here he is speaking directly about his beliefs. He he is speaking about the great design we intuitively see in life and existence and know that God is behind this. Here he is saying that science can take us so far but then as an intelligent person we have to acknowledge Gods amazing creation.

"I'm not an atheist and I don't think I can call myself a pantheist. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangements of the books, but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God."
 
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Archaeopteryx

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But now you are.
No, I'm pointing out that you are wrong to try to deputise him to your argument.
He called your beliefs childish, steve, so no.
 
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masterp48hd

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The different traits will disappear as long as the animal is fully adapted to the environment. If for example the climate in some place cools down a lot, only the individuals of a species that can sustain the cold better will live and all the others die (some species will disappear entirely in the process), and those who can live in colder places will pass on their genes on the later generations, and those who are.born with tge genes passed by their parents will live, and those who are.born with tge "old genes" will die. Leave them a couple million years and they are fully adapted to the cold. I know it's difficult to imagine because those are a lot of years but it is roughly how it works.
Ps: i speak the little that i know about evolution, i'm not a biologist so i understand only the general idea of it, i probably made some mistakes but thats how i understand that works
 
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Ruby Sparks

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I have never understood how "natural selection" and "intelligent design" are at necessarily at odds: An intelligent designer could have invented natural selection.

True. An intelligent designer could have. Now all we need is a case to be made for this, instead of the trying to find flaws in the more plausible alternative, which seems to be what has made up most of the thread after your post.
 
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SkyWriting

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Many claim everything on Earth is from a god or Intelligent Design. Claiming Natural Selection couldn't create something as involved and complex as all the species on Earth.

Actually it can't "Create" anything at all. Or even move in the direction of creation.
What natural law or process allows for the "growth" of any additional design from
a lesser level?
 
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SkyWriting

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We, descended from monkeys, during fetal development we have a tail and lose it in the 9th week.

That bologna has been dropped decades ago.
Which includes men having nipples. Where was the intelligent design in that process?
Men and women don't differentiate until after that stage.
Don't get your gonads all worked up about having cooties or something.
 
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stevevw

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No, I'm pointing out that you are wrong to try to deputise him to your argument.

He called your beliefs childish, steve, so no.
This is a good example of how you choose to only see what you want to see and look at only part of the evidence and twist what a person has said. I said that Einstein acknowledge that there was some sort of spirit that governed the universe and life and not just God if you read what I put in the first place. You have changed it specifically to God. My point was that even people of scientific minds can have a faith that there is something that controls everything beyond that science. (Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe-a spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which we with our modest powers must feel humble).

But still Einstein said that an intelligent person would believe in God. But you only choose to focus on some of his quotes. In fact when you look at all of his quotes about God and belief the ones supporting a belief in God outnumber any where he has said that a belief in God is silly. So which is more true. If this evidence was taken into account the positive support for a belief in God from Einstein would be greater.

But this is all irrelevant. I could find another stack of scientists to support a belief in God. My point was that scientists who use analytic thought and base their findings on falsifying the evidence can believe in God which requires a faith.
 
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stevevw

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Yes this is possible but that is something that will happen by tapping into the existing genetics available. There could be a capacity to switch on or off certain functions of existing genes. So the genes for hair are already there but the capacity to have thin or thick or long and short hair is something that is within the capacity of the existing genetics. But this capacity has its limits and wont allow an animal to continue to evolve into a completely different one. The variations within the Canis genus is great and as far as I understand the basic dog shape goes back a very long way. So the sizes of bodies, legs and heads as well as facial features can change but they are all still basically dog types.

But there is not evidence a dog is going to become a completely new creature like the way a Dino is said to become a bird or the dog like creature Pakicetus which is said to eventually become a whale. Which has nothing to do with a dog by the way yet looks more like a dog than a whale does.

As I have posted tests show that there are limits to the evolution of a new function with would require multiple mutations. Remembering that a mutation is also basically a cost to the fitness of a creature and moving away from the natural state that the creature has in the first place which is already its best condition. Heres a Tasmanian tiger which looks a lot like the Pakicetus which also looks like a dog. Though these are not related it goes to show how observational evidence is hard to use as they do have similar features.
 
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masterp48hd

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Yeah, to make radical changes ypu would probably need mutations, but most mutations won't lower the fitness of the animal beacuse they are neutral, and some may be beneficial, but i believe there is a chance of evolution from a species to a different one without mutations, like that island where a group of pigeons hot stranded.and they evolved into 2 different species (i think ones where good at eatin worms and the others i don't remember) that now can't even procreate with each other, and it wasn't a mutation, just tge adaptation to a new environment. And.i think that if the earth, for example started to flood (i know it's impossible) we could see mammals evolve into cetacean like creatures if they don't go extinct, with no mutations whatsoever, just the adaptation of the species to a whole new panorama
 
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stevevw

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Yes and also the Galapagos Islands where the finches Darwin observed to help make his theory change the sizes of their beaks to be able to crack the shells of seeds so they could continue to eat. The finches with bigger and stronger beaks survived and that feature became more dominate within the group of finches. But later it was observed that when thing returned back to the way they were the finches beaks also returned to how they were.

Still this is just a small change which would be available to happen from the existing genetics the finches already had. The evolution for change is limited and change make heaps of variations to birds. But it doesn't mean that those birds were once dinos and they morphed from reptile type creatures to birds. Evolution takes what is true to a limited ability and then extends that to give it more creative ability than is available. They do this because they link up similarities between certain creatures and speculate that this is because one came from the other. But genetic evidence shows us that this is not the case. The connection that they make through the Darwinian tree of life are often contradicted by the genetic evidence.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/sci...is-wrong-and-misleading-claim-scientists.html
http://www.examiner.com/article/cha...ientists-debunk-darwin-s-tree-of-life-diagram
 
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Larniavc

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But this capacity has its limits and wont allow an animal to continue to evolve into a completely different one.

What is the limiting factor? Are scales the same as feathers or different?
 
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stevevw

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What is the limiting factor? Are scales the same as feathers or different?
The limiting factors are to do with a number of things. Fitness as most mutations have a cost to fitness, even so called beneficial mutations can have a small cost factor involved. Tests show that in fact mutations do the opposite of what is claimed by evolution and will have a harmful effect on a creature by taking away genetic info rather than adding info or increasing fitness and complexity. The capacity to evolve multi mutations that are needed even for small changes in the proteins to add new functions through a chance and random process.

Evolving from a Dino to a bird doesn't just involve changing scales into feathers. What about the dinos that dont have scales. Besides its not as simple as just citing one change. Feathers in themselves are a complex piece of body plan and involve many features that would need to be evolved through random mutations. Then you have the 100s of other functions, systems and other connections such as bone structure, muscles, tendons, ligaments, nerves, respiratory system changes, blood vessel changes and all the connections to the brain to tell everything to work properly. This is only a small example of what is needed to change one creature from another.
 
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Larniavc

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I'm not sure your points are valid. But if you can support them with evidence I would be very interested to see my it.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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Did I ever deny that some scientists also happen to be theists? I don't recall ever saying anything of that nature. Could you quote me on it?
(Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe-a spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which we with our modest powers must feel humble).
That is clearly untrue. Many scientists are atheists.
You're not listening, again. Back to your usual ways. Einstein's concept of god differed significantly from your own. Einstein's religion, to the extent that he had one, differed significantly from your own.
But this is all irrelevant. I could find another stack of scientists to support a belief in God.
So what?
My point was that scientists who use analytic thought and base their findings on falsifying the evidence can believe in God which requires a faith.
So what?
 
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Archaeopteryx

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I've addressed this point of yours on several occasions. Yet here you are, repeating it again. I give up. You're just here to bloviate.
 
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KCfromNC

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I agree but you shouldn't judge others before you know all the facts. It maybe a case of not being aware and misunderstandings.

I pointed out a misunderstanding was a possibility, so I have no idea what your point is supposed to be.

To me it was a case of mistaken identity.

Now who is judging without knowing all the facts?

Its like anything connected with religion

Creationists have a long history of dishonest in advancing their claims. I'm not condemning all of religion due to the actions of a small but motivated political group who happens to also claim to be religious.

In fact Bio complexity is primarily about ID and not creationism.

They're the same thing. ID is just creationism with the references to god hidden a bit.


Yes, exactly. Like I said, it is discussing problems with one very specific hypothesis for the development of certain specific features.

You will have to show me as I am not sure which paper you are talking about.

Show you what, exactly?
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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You're not listening, again. Back to your usual ways. Einstein's concept of god differed significantly from your own. Einstein's religion, to the extent that he had one, differed significantly from your own.
He complained several times about being misrepresented in his beliefs, for example:
 
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KCfromNC

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Still pretending chemistry is random after admitting you know it isn't. I see. Whatever it takes to keep the faith going, I guess. Ends justify the means and all that. And nice job cherry-picking results from 50 year old research to try and attack modern biology. That seems fair - after all, everyone knows that every biologist quit work as a scientist during the 70s so stuff from the Kennedy administration is as close to the cutting edge as we're going to ever get.

Anyway, I'm still waiting for the context of the quote you posted a few days ago. How's the search going?
 
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KCfromNC

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IMO information has to precede aggregation

What's your academic and professional background? If we're supposed to accept your opinion we have a right to know if that opinion is based on anything of value of if you're just an amateur making stuff up.
 
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