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Natural Selection Is Circular Logic

mark kennedy

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"Those who are best adapted to their current environment" takes away a good deal of the apparent circularity.

Just saying -- if you use more accurate terms, you become less confused.
It's actually the benificial trait that prpovides the selective advantage. The term is rarely defined in clear terms, it's somejtimes a mutation but that kind of damaged DNA creating an alternate allele is a long shot at best.
 
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AV1611VET

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"Those who are best adapted to their current environment" takes away a good deal of the apparent circularity.
Let's see if that is true; shall we?

Here's my OP:
Natural selection is based on circular reasoning: the fittest are those who survive, and those who survive are deemed fittest.
Here's what you just said:
"Those who are best adapted to their current environment" takes away a good deal of the apparent circularity.
So let's change my OP accordingly and see if that's so:
The fittest are those who are best adapted to their current environment, and those who are best adapted to their current environment are the fittest.

Still sounds circular to me.
 
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HitchSlap

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Here's what you just said:So let's change my OP accordingly and see if that's so:
Correct, that genetically fit organisms survive and reproduce in their environments, is a fact.

Why are you having such a hard time with this?
 
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mark kennedy

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Correct, that genetically fit organisms survive and reproduce in their environments, is a fact.

Why are you having such a hard time with this?
Right now the question is what defines being genetically fit, mutation are nost often nuetral or deleterious. Where does that variant allele that provides a selective advantage come from?
 
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TLK Valentine

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It's actually the benificial trait that prpovides the selective advantage. The term is rarely defined in clear terms, it's somejtimes a mutation but that kind of damaged DNA creating an alternate allele is a long shot at best.

Indeed it is a long shot -- and that's why 99.9999% of species which have ever walked, crawled, swam, or slithered on this planet are now extinct.

It's a neverending contest, and there's no prize for second place. Fortunately, there is so much life on this planet, that there are winners.

Similarly, winning the lottery is a long shot... but with so many people playing, someone usually wins every week.
 
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TLK Valentine

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Let's see if that is true; shall we?

Here's my OP:
Here's what you just said:So let's change my OP accordingly and see if that's so:

Those who didn't get killed in WWII went home to see their families, and those who went home to see their families didn't get killed in WWII...

where's the problem?
 
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mark kennedy

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Indeed it is a long shot -- and that's why 99.9999% of species which have ever walked, crawled, swam, or slithered on this planet are now extinct.

It's a neverending contest, and there's no prize for second place. Fortunately, there is so much life on this planet, that there are winners.

Similarly, winning the lottery is a long shot... but with so many people playing, someone usually wins every week.
That's not entirely true, species can go extinct but genotypes have a much greater longevity.
 
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AV1611VET

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Those who didn't get killed in WWII went home to see their families, and those who went home to see their families didn't get killed in WWII...

where's the problem?
It's circular logic ... especially if you're trying to use it to prove WWII occurred.
 
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TLK Valentine

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sfs

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I did.

"Those who survive."
Incorrect on two counts. Fitness is a propensity, not a post facto observation, and both survival and reproduction are required. The fittest are those that have traits that make them the most likely to survive and reproduce. Quite often the fittest do not survive.
 
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sfs

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Right now the question is what defines being genetically fit, mutation are nost often nuetral or deleterious. Where does that variant allele that provides a selective advantage come from?
From the ones that are neither deleterious nor neutral.
 
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HitchSlap

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Good parallel.
Only if you accept all assertions as equal. Your foundational worldview is based on a myth, so I understand why you might be confused. Having to parse out fact from fiction can be daunting once you’re willing to believe anything.
 
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mark kennedy

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From the ones that are neither deleterious nor neutral.
Maybe, maybe a duplicate gene, exon shuffling, or adjestmets in the gene expression. While the Eqyption were building their pyramids the first human migration was crossing the bearing land bridge. Most likely that was the time the first bears made the journey. Some adapted to the arctic, polar bears. The Grizzlies a little further south and black bears even further south. Their ancestor had some kind of gene governing fur color. It would be as unfortunate as it is unlikely that gene was mutating at random. As the various selective pressures mounted, changes in this gene adapted to new challenges.

Thats the whole problem, natural selection is about survival of the fittest, not the arrival of the fittest. Random mutations in such a critical protien coding gene are very unlikely improve the amino acid sequence. Its going to disrupt it the vast majority of the time. God provided for adaptive evolution, those alternaive alleles were the result of purposful design. One day science will uncover the molecular mechanism involved and Im 100% sure it was'nt a mutation. Probably just a much bigger gene pool.
 
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Kylie

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Natural selection is based on circular reasoning: the fittest are those who survive, and those who survive are deemed fittest.

You don't even understand what that means, do you?

Either that or you're just trolling...
 
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