Natural Men Are Not Elected By God

[depthdeception]

The virgin birth is not so profound we do not know what it is. A young woman became pregnant and gave birth without the aid of a man. How profound is that? The resurrection is a body without the soul laying lifeless in the tomb for three days and was quickened by the Spirit of God and rose from the dead. Who cannot understand that.

You're missing the point completely. My point is that these are miracles, not because they cannot be understood, but because faith and belief makes them so. Given that we cannot draw a causal link between the impregnation of Mary and supernatural activity, nor of the resurrection of Jesus and a divine invasion of then natural order, it is our faith and belief which imbues these realities with their miraculous nature. If we try to establish their miraculousness on the basis of phenomenology, we will not only fail to prove anything, but will in fact disprove everything we were trying to establish in the quest itself.

If you do not believe in the virgin birth of Jesus Christ and his physical resurrection from the dead, then you are not a Christian and you are on your way to hell. No Christian, Calvinist or otherwise will say differently! Christianity depends on these two things.

Whoa, there, trigger, I already told you I believe in these things. No need to get all hellfire and brimstone, as if you or anyone else were in a position to do so in any circumstance...

 

[KCDAD]

This is a Christian forum!! Why are you here?

Because I am a disciple of Jesus... this is also a discussion forum... why are you here? Just spreading meaningless dogmas with nothing behind them?

It is apparent that most western Christians don't care at all about the teachings of their lord and savior. All they care about is the magic tricks and promise of eternal life. "What do I get out of it?"

It is even more funny when those western Christians try and cite the founding of The United States on christian principles; quote deists like Thomas Jefferson or agnostics like Thomas Paine... neither of whom believed any of the "miracles" of The Bible.

The point is of course NONE of the miracles in The Bible are required for faith, and NONE of them provide any insight into God or mankind. They are distractions from the message of Jesus.

 

[KCDAD]

The virgin birth is not so profound we do not know what it is. A young woman became pregnant and gave birth without the aid of a man. How profound is that? The resurrection is a body without the soul laying lifeless in the tomb for three days and was quickened by the Spirit of God and rose from the dead. Who cannot understand that. If you do not believe in the virgin birth of Jesus Christ and his physical resurrection from the dead, then you are not a Christian and you are on your way to hell. No Christian, Calvinist or otherwise will say differently! Christianity depends on these two things.

Then Christianity is lie and a waste of time...

The virgin birth is an intentional mistranslation from the beginning... it was common 2000 years ago (see The Caesars, Alexander the Great, The Pharaohs, etc) to declare the rulers of a nation as being born of a virgin, and the son of god... Matthew and Luke seized upon this convention and applied it to their "king", Jesus. Octavian (Caesar Augustus is called: "The one to be worshiped, god, son of god, savior of the world".)

As far as the resurrection goes... the term means to dig up the dead... not come alive again. We resurrect Abraham Lincoln here in Illinois every year around February 12th. Not physically, but spiritually. What difference would it make to bring Lincoln back physically? All that matters is that we continually revive, raise and /or resurrect his spirit...

Jesus himself tells in his parable, even if someone would come back from the dead, you still would not believe... so listen to the law and the prophets! Faith doesn't come from miracles... faith comes doing the will of the Father.

 

[cygnusx1]

And the parting of the Red Sea according to natural law was caused by The Red Sea Parting Machine Thingamajig.

yes , the raising of the dead must have been a rare natural occurence a fluke , and the giving of sight to the blind must have been from a knock on the head

 

[KCDAD]

yes , the raising of the dead must have been a rare natural occurence a fluke , and the giving of sight to the blind must have been from a knock on the head

Do you happen to recall a phrase Jesus apparently used to describe those that did not understand?

Those who have eyes to see?
Blind guides, blind fools?

Were they really blind?

In Amazing Grace we sing, "I was once was lost but now am found, was blind, but now I see."

Really lost? Really blind? Yes. But it wasn't my eyesight. IT IS A METAPHOR!

Who cares if he can give sight to eyes, if he can give sight to the soul?

 

[JDS]

Then Christianity is lie and a waste of time...

The virgin birth is an intentional mistranslation from the beginning... it was common 2000 years ago (see The Caesars, Alexander the Great, The Pharaohs, etc) to declare the rulers of a nation as being born of a virgin, and the son of god... Matthew and Luke seized upon this convention and applied it to their "king", Jesus. Octavian (Caesar Augustus is called: "The one to be worshiped, god, son of god, savior of the world".)

As far as the resurrection goes... the term means to dig up the dead... not come alive again. We resurrect Abraham Lincoln here in Illinois every year around February 12th. Not physically, but spiritually. What difference would it make to bring Lincoln back physically? All that matters is that we continually revive, raise and /or resurrect his spirit...

Jesus himself tells in his parable, even if someone would come back from the dead, you still would not believe... so listen to the law and the prophets! Faith doesn't come from miracles... faith comes doing the will of the Father.

Discussing this with you is a waste of time. The forum header says Christans only. There is no Christianity without a virgin birth and a physical resurrection of Jesus Christ. This is the testimony of God concerning his son. No one here will force you to believe anything you do not want to believe but those who deny the foundational doctrines of the Christian faith are not Christians and should not be posting here. The other alternative is that you could accept the testimony of God concerning Jesus Christ and be saved.

1Jo 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, [even] Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. 9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. 11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Mt 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Lu 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Ga 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead)

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

1Co 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
1Co 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. 15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

 

[nobdysfool]

Discussing this with you is a waste of time. The forum header says Christans only. There is no Christianity without a virgin birth and a physical resurrection of Jesus Christ. This is the testimony of God concerning his son. No one here will force you to believe anything you do not want to believe but those who deny the foundational doctrines of the Christian faith are not Christians and should not be posting here. The other alternative is that you could accept the testimony of God concerning Jesus Christ and be saved.

1Jo 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, [even] Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. 9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. 11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Mt 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Lu 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Ga 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead)

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

1Co 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
1Co 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. 15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

Brother, we may not see eye to eye on many things, but on this, we stand shoulder to shoulder. I add a hearty AMEN! to what you have said here. Without the miraculous, supernatural conception and virgin birth of Jesus, and His literal physical resurrection from the dead, there is no Gospel.

Preach it, Bro!

 

[cygnusx1]

Brother, we may not see eye to eye on many things, but on this, we stand shoulder to shoulder. I add a hearty AMEN! to what you have said here. Without the miraculous, supernatural conception and virgin birth of Jesus, and His literal physical resurrection from the dead, there is no Gospel.

Preach it, Bro!

such are the logical outworkings of liberalism , it's just some haven't arrived as far down the track as deying the virgin birth and bodily resurrection , yet.

 

[KCDAD]

There is no Christianity without a virgin birth and a physical resurrection of Jesus Christ.

FALSE. That is a creedal statement to which no follower of Jesus is required to submit.
Love the Lord , your God and your neighbor as yourself. THAT IS IT. Heal the sick, visit the imprisoned, comfort the afflicted, seek justice, love mercy, walk humbly... gosh I give you a lot of things that The BIble says we must do in order to be a follower of Jesus, a son of God... none of them consist of stating what you belief.

There was none, and never will be any virgin birth (at least of a male child). As for the phsycial resurrection, again I'll ask you, where is Jesus' physical body? In the clouds?

"Without the miraculous, supernatural conception and virgin birth of Jesus, and His literal physical resurrection from the dead, there is no Gospel."

This is so ... wow! Just amazing. You really think the gospel is about miracles? Do you have idea why Jesus told people NOT TO TALK ABOUT THE MIRACLES???? BEcause they were not important. They, in fact, were irrelevant.

 

[JamesAH]

FALSE. That is a creedal statement to which no follower of Jesus is required to submit.
Love the Lord , your God and your neighbor as yourself. THAT IS IT. Heal the sick, visit the imprisoned, comfort the afflicted, seek justice, love mercy, walk humbly... gosh I give you a lot of things that The BIble says we must do in order to be a follower of Jesus, a son of God... none of them consist of stating what you belief.

There was none, and never will be any virgin birth (at least of a male child). As for the phsycial resurrection, again I'll ask you, where is Jesus' physical body? In the clouds?

"Without the miraculous, supernatural conception and virgin birth of Jesus, and His literal physical resurrection from the dead, there is no Gospel."

This is so ... wow! Just amazing. You really think the gospel is about miracles? Do you have idea why Jesus told people NOT TO TALK ABOUT THE MIRACLES???? BEcause they were not important. They, in fact, were irrelevant.

Have you even read the bible jeez.

 

[KCDAD]

Have you even read the bible jeez.

In at least 16 different translations from 4 different languages... how about you?

Wanna quote me one time believing in a virgin birth or resurrection is necessary to be a Christian? (Those creeds didn't come into being until hundreds of years later so you skip anything written in The Bible if you are looking for them.)

 

[nobdysfool]

Mat 15:12-14 Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying? (13) But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up. (14) Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

1Co 15:12-19 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? (13) But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: (14) And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. (15) Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. (16) For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: (17) And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. (18) Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. (19) If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

Joh 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

Joh 10:37-38 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. (38) But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.


Scripture after scripture testify to the fact that the miracles are real, and the resurrection is real, and to not believe them, to deny them, is to deny the Faith. The virgin birth was prophesied, and fulfilled by Jesus. His conception and birth had to be miraculous in order for Him to be the Savior. These are not negotiable points of doctrine. The creeds only formalized what was already understood as required orthodox doctrinal belief, and those who didn't accept it were marked and anathematized. those things have not changed in the ensuing two millennia. Philosophical and rational thought do not supersede scriptural truth. These Truths are absolute, bedrock Christian doctrine, and denial of them is denial of the Faith. Period.

 

[JamesAH]

Mat 15:12-14 Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying? (13) But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up. (14) Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

1Co 15:12-19 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? (13) But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: (14) And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. (15) Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. (16) For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: (17) And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. (18) Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. (19) If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

Joh 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

Joh 10:37-38 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. (38) But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.


Scripture after scripture testify to the fact that the miracles are real, and the resurrection is real, and to not believe them, to deny them, is to deny the Faith. The virgin birth was prophesied, and fulfilled by Jesus. His conception and birth had to be miraculous in order for Him to be the Savior. These are not negotiable points of doctrine. The creeds only formalized what was already understood as required orthodox doctrinal belief, and those who didn't accept it were marked and anathematized. those things have not changed in the ensuing two millennia. Philosophical and rational thought do not supersede scriptural truth. These Truths are absolute, bedrock Christian doctrine, and denial of them is denial of the Faith. Period.

Thank you NBF QFT

 

[heymikey80]

Calvinists may "know" about pantheism, but their theology does little to avoid pantheism's ultimate conclusions. In fact, I would argue that Calvinists are better (albeit unaware) pantheists than actual pantheists, and I have proven this logically on numerous occasions.

Statements without support.

"the Universe (including Nature on Earth) is the only thing deserving the deepest kind of reverence." How's that ultimate conclusion supported by Calvinism, again?

What conclusions would you assert are supported by Calvinism?

What's the point of avoiding the conclusions of a viewpoint that's not completely wrong? Wouldn't the rational person consider the conclusions and examine the conditions as to why they would be?

It's interesting you're asserting pantheism; others assert dualism; still others have asserted platonism; and even others have accused Aristotelianism.

Again, with no data, it's unsupported.

 

[KCDAD]

Scripture after scripture testify to the fact that the miracles are real, and the resurrection is real, and to not believe them, to deny them, is to deny the Faith. The virgin birth was prophesied, and fulfilled by Jesus. His conception and birth had to be miraculous in order for Him to be the Savior. These are not negotiable points of doctrine. The creeds only formalized what was already understood as required orthodox doctrinal belief, and those who didn't accept it were marked and anathematized. those things have not changed in the ensuing two millennia. Philosophical and rational thought do not supersede scriptural truth. These Truths are absolute, bedrock Christian doctrine, and denial of them is denial of the Faith. Period.

I'm impressed by people who take a 4th century Canon as God's inerrant word when Colossians probably wasn't even written by Paul , who never met Jesus and never heard his teachings.
Don't use reason, quote the Catholic Canon.

 

[nobdysfool]

I'm impressed by people who take a 4th century Canon as God's inerrant word when Colossians probably wasn't even written by Paul , who never met Jesus and never heard his teachings.
Don't use reason, quote the Catholic Canon.

Nice ad hominem. When you can't answer the refutation, attack the messenger.

By your words you shall be justified, and by your words you shall be condemned.

 

[heymikey80]

I'm impressed by people who take a 4th century Canon as God's inerrant word when Colossians probably wasn't even written by Paul , who never met Jesus and never heard his teachings.
Don't use reason, quote the Catholic Canon.

The Muratorian Fragment

 

[JamesAH]

I can't believe that anyone wouldn't believe the Virgin Birth or the Resurrection.

In order for Christ to fulfill His role as Savior He needed to do these things:

1.Come into the world via the Virgin Birth
2.Minister to people and perform miracles
3.Die on the cross
4.Rise from the dead as the Resurrection

He needed to come into this world via a virgin because He needed to be sin free. And He needed to rise from the dead via the Resurrection to show He conquered death at the cross.

All of that from the Virgin Birth to the Resurrection is the fundamental belief system Christians adhere to today and is essential to know Christ's role as Savior and the importance of it.

 

[KCDAD]

The Muratorian Fragment

I hope your point is to point out that there are no earlier texts than 170 AD, although this obviously refers to earlier texts...

 

[KCDAD]

I can't believe that anyone wouldn't believe the Virgin Birth or the Resurrection.

In order for Christ to fulfill His role as Savior He needed to do these things:

1.Come into the world via the Virgin Birth
2.Minister to people and perform miracles
3.Die on the cross
4.Rise from the dead as the Resurrection

He needed to come into this world via a virgin because He needed to be sin free. And He needed to rise from the dead via the Resurrection to show He conquered death at the cross.

All of that from the Virgin Birth to the Resurrection is the fundamental belief system Christians adhere to today and is essential to know Christ's role as Savior and the importance of it.

1) What does sin have to do with birth or sex?
2) Perform miracles? Why? I thought the Gospel was a message.
3) Die? God can't die. God is immortal.
4) Apparently Jesus was never dead... he is eternally begotten not made since the beginning of time. Equal, one with the father... Even during the "three days" he was busy descending into hell...

What did Jesus save you from by his death?