Natural Men Are Not Elected By God

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JDS

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God does not choose who is born physically into the family of Adam. He has established natural laws and parents often plan the size of their families by taking steps to circumvent those laws. Some desire larger families and take drugs that enhance the ability to conceive and others use birth control measures to limit it. In either case it is the choice of people as to who is born or not born physically.

Many people enter into the family of mankind through immoral acts such as rape fornication and adultery. Since God's laws are based upon an absolute moral principle and some say God is absolutely sovereign as it applies to acts of men, how can he choose some one to be saved before the foundation of the world and then have them to be born physically through acts that his very character judges immoral?

There is a huge disconnect here in Calvinistic doctrines of election and sovereignty when it is considered on a practical level and it defies logic and commom sense. It is far better to believe that God elects those who believe in Jesus Christ, who died so the whole world might be saved, no matter what their physical background.

2 Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
 

Ghost air

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It is far better to believe that God elects those who believe in Jesus Christ, who died so the whole world might be saved, no matter what their physical background.

Amen to that. I do beleive that election is simple and infinitely glorious when it all centers upon the Father's only begotten Son, in whom He is well pleased.

The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into His hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
 
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467AIR

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God is not logical as man is logic. In like manner, God is of a different and higher order of life and nature than are humans. The mind of man functions on the level of human nature, whereas the mind of God functions on the level of divine nature.

In days past, in our babyhood walk in God, we apprehended something of eternal spiritual realities; we have seen, even if through a glass darkly, something of the marvel of the kingdom of God and the beauty of the King! But our past spiritual spectrum — how poor a fraction of the whole! And beyond the best insights we have had in this dark, shadowed existence of time and flesh and limitation and tradition and religious teachings of the old-order church systems of man, what reaches of glory are now being opened for us in that higher world of the kingdom of heaven!

All our questions are being answered here, line upon line, precept upon precept, as the Father teaches us by His Spirit the mysteries of His purposes! WHAT ONE SEES DEPENDS UPON WHERE HE SEES IT FROM! Everyone has his particular vantage point, perspective, position, or frame of reference. It has become my experience, however, that in order to comprehend, at least in part, the infinite depths and majestic heights of truth revealed in the God's deep and awesome Word, we must leave the customary paths trodden by natural learning and intellectual effort, to explore the realms hitherto kept secret, and walk the avenues where man's spirit has seldom soared. If we now insist that all revelation and illumination of truth must be judged by the narrowness of our past tradition, better far it is that we turn our back now on all illumination and light that comes by the Spirit and join those tradition-ridden Pharisees who could never believe that Jesus spoke aught but blasphemy when He declared in the certainty of divine wisdom, "Before Abraham was, I AM."

The Bible is a book that defies the wisdom of man! The natural man can never understand the things of God! Whatever viewpoint we take that originates from any pinnacle of human intellect, from any compartment of the imagination, from any kind of speculation of the carnal mind, or from the musty traditions of man’s religious creeds, will completely miss the view from the lofty heights of the spirit of truth! Awe-inspiring truth fills the pages of the Revelation and it is certain none could ever understand them but by the Holy Spirit!

God does not choose who is born physically into the family of Adam. He has established natural laws and parents often plan the size of their families by taking steps to circumvent those laws. Some desire larger families and take drugs that enhance the ability to conceive and others use birth control measures to limit it. In either case it is the choice of people as to who is born or not born physically.

Many people enter into the family of mankind through immoral acts such as rape fornication and adultery. Since God's laws are based upon an absolute moral principle and some say God is absolutely sovereign as it applies to acts of men, how can he choose some one to be saved before the foundation of the world and then have them to be born physically through acts that his very character judges immoral?

There is a huge disconnect here in Calvinistic doctrines of election and sovereignty when it is considered on a practical level and it defies logic and commom sense. It is far better to believe that God elects those who believe in Jesus Christ, who died so the whole world might be saved, no matter what their physical background.

2 Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
 
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KCDAD

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It's funny to hear about how "above" mankind God is. All of the logic, reason and calculations BY MAN in order to describe how indescribable God is.

Forget all the theology and idol building... take God at Moses' word. God is "I am". Period. The legitimate description of God must be prefaced by "God is not"... not, human, not mortal, not stupid, not finite, not ... WHATEVER. Anyone who affirmatively claims God IS anything is wrong.
 
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LiturgyInDMinor

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It's funny to hear about how "above" mankind God is. All of the logic, reason and calculations BY MAN in order to describe how indescribable God is.

Forget all the theology and idol building... take God at Moses' word. God is "I am". Period. The legitimate description of God must be prefaced by "God is not"... not, human, not mortal, not stupid, not finite, not ... WHATEVER. Anyone who affirmatively claims God IS anything is wrong.

GOD is Sovereign.
Deal with it.
 
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467AIR

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"His servants shall serve Him: And they shall see His face; and His name shall be in their foreheads." (Revelation 22:3-4).
There will be no divided allegiance. There will be no divided interests-- His, and theirs. For His name, His character, all that He is shall be fully written in their foreheads. "I will put My laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to Me a people." (Hebrews 8:10).
Not only are the first fruits of the new covenant generation called a SEED, and called a SERVANT, but they are also referred to as "Mine elect." The word literally means: to be chosen. And never is the operation GRACE seen more clearly, than when it comes to God's choosing a people for Himself. "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." (Romans 9:15-16).

We are chosen-- not because of anything in us, no merit, no desirableness, for we all have "sinned, and come short of the glory of God." Nevertheless, in mercy He says, "Ye have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain." (John 15:16). He blinds whom He blinds, and He chooses whom He wills, not on a whim, nor with caprice, but in infinite wisdom, as He works all things together after the counsel of His own will, and with a view towards the goal when ultimately "in Christ shall ALL be made alive." Praise His name!
 
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LiturgyInDMinor

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"His servants shall serve Him: And they shall see His face; and His name shall be in their foreheads." (Revelation 22:3-4).
There will be no divided allegiance. There will be no divided interests-- His, and theirs. For His name, His character, all that He is shall be fully written in their foreheads. "I will put My laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to Me a people." (Hebrews 8:10).
Not only are the first fruits of the new covenant generation called a SEED, and called a SERVANT, but they are also referred to as "Mine elect." The word literally means: to be chosen. And never is the operation GRACE seen more clearly, than when it comes to God's choosing a people for Himself. "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." (Romans 9:15-16).

We are chosen-- not because of anything in us, no merit, no desirableness, for we all have "sinned, and come short of the glory of God." Nevertheless, in mercy He says, "Ye have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain." (John 15:16). He blinds whom He blinds, and He chooses whom He wills, not on a whim, nor with caprice, but in infinite wisdom, as He works all things together after the counsel of His own will, and with a view towards the goal when ultimately "in Christ shall ALL be made alive." Praise His name!

Amen.
 
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Van

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God is sovereign, He either causes or allows all things. But being sovereign, He can allow others to make autonomous choices within the limits He sets. So the premise that God could not base His election of individuals on their faith in Christ is wholly without merit. Scripture says God sets before us a choice of life or death, not life only for some and death only for others.

Lets actually consider John 15:16 cited above. Jesus chose His disciples during their lives based on His knowledge of their attitudes, they were looking for the Messiah, all that is except one, Judas. He was chosen to fulfill the prophecy of the betrayer.
So the very verse cited in an attempt to support the errant doctrine actually supports election during our lifetime. As does election from the womb.

1 Peter 2:9-10 teaches God chooses us to be "His own possession" during our lifetime, after we were not a people, after we had lived without mercy. And as cited about, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 teaches we are chosen through "sanctification by the Spirit" which refers to God setting us apart spiritually "in Christ." And since our human spirits are not formed until conception, our election unto salvation occurs during our lifetime. It is a lock.
 
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LiturgyInDMinor

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God is sovereign, He either causes or allows all things. But being sovereign, He can allow others to make autonomous choices within the limits He sets. So the premise that God could not base His election of individuals on their faith in Christ is wholly without merit. Scripture says God sets before us a choice of life or death, not life only for some and death only for others.

It's not that He "could not"...He "did not".
 
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467AIR

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How often we have heard preachers say that God's whole experiment with Israel was a failure. They are wrong on two counts─ God never fails, and this was not just an "experiment" with Israel to see what would or would not work, GOD WAS SPECIFICALLY WORKING OUT A PURPOSE, and He was successful in all that He was doing. Reading on in Romans 9, verse 6 says, "Not as though the word of God has taken none effect." It just takes spiritual eyesight to see what God was working out. Men often look to the natural for that which has a spiritual fulfillment. Viewing conditions after the flesh is always discouraging. One can read of how God brought them out of Egypt, supernaturally sustained them so their clothes did not wear out, there was none sick among them, they were fed and kept by the power of God, and yet a whole generation died in the wilderness. Immediately we have to remind ourselves, "NOT AS THOUGH THE WORD OF GOD HAS TAKEN NONE EFFECT." How can we say that? Because there were two men, Joshua and Caleb, that survived the wilderness processing, and they were able to go in and possess the land, leading a whole new generation with them. Two is the number of witness, and thus did God BEAR WITNESS that He could fulfill His purpose.

Finally Israel is established as a nation, and they run through cycle after cycle of serving God, and then backsliding to serve idols. Eventually God wrote them a bill of divorcement and sent them off into captivity. Ah, is this all a failure? NO! Always HIS WORD had taken effect in a remnant, an election by grace─ keeping to Himself a people through whom CHRIST could come, and be born after the seed of Abraham. And so Paul begins to unfold his understanding of the whole thing.

First of all he states, "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall your seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." (Romans 9:6-8).

God's purpose had not gone awry. In His divine selectivity He apprehended those who were born, not of the flesh, but OF THE PROMISE. Jesus gave the clear application, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." (John 3:6). Being of the natural does not qualify for the Spirit. And so Paul first uses Abraham's two sons for illustration. Ishmael stands in type for those born of the flesh, and Isaac stands in type for the children of the promise, "For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son." (v. 9).

Both Ishmael and Isaac could claim Abraham as their father. But it is not what we receive from our earthly fathers and mothers that assures us of our place IN GOD. Even Abraham's intercession, when he "said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before You!" (Gen. 17:18), did not alter God's purpose. The choice was not to be made by Abraham, IT WAS RETAINED BY GOD. Abraham could have bawled and squalled all night long but it would not have changed the WILL OF GOD in the matter. The prayer that prevails is the prayer that is an utterance of the Divine Will. That's why we must depend on the Spirit to be our Helper. "For we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And He that searches the hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God." (Romans 8:26-27). THANK GOD for this divine help with our praying.

Then Paul's argument goes on, "And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger." (Rom. 9:10-11).

First we noted the selection of a son of Abraham by one woman, Sarah, and a rejection of his son by another woman, Hagar. Sarah's son was born because of the promise of God, and divine enablement, for the deadness of her womb precluded just the natural. Hagar's son was simply born of the flesh, and therefore rejected as fulfilling God's purpose.

But when it comes to Isaac's two sons, they are both born of the same woman and yet again there is a selection/rejection made. There was a different destiny appointed for each of the twins. ONLY DIVINE SELECTION constituted the true and valid succession, not the bodily descent. The only ground on which a twin could have been preferred was that of priority of birth, and this, too, was disregarded, for the elder was rejected, and the younger one was chosen.

Having laid out these considerations, Paul then begins to press home the truth. This divine selection was made, with "The children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that THE PURPOSE OF GOD ACCORDING TO ELECTION MIGHT STAND, not of works, but of Him that calls." (v. 11)


In the CHOOSING of Jacob over Esau, there were no previous works, good or evil, it was all DIVINE choosing. "As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." (v. 13).

We must make note of this word "hate" for it is not taken in the absolute sense, inasmuch as "God so loved the world," (John 3:16) and this leaves none out. "He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, 4. but also for the sins of the whole world." (1 John 2:2). He loves all! Used here, the word "hate" is given in contrast to "love", it does not retain its original meaning of a literal hatred, but of a lesser degree of love. God cannot be said to hate anyone.

Jesus said, "If any man come to Me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple." (Luke 14:26). Yet Paul states, "For no man ever yet hated his own flesh."(Eph. 5:29). Is there a contradiction here? No! Jesus truly explained it when He said, "He that loves father or mother MORE THAN ME is not worthy of Me." (Matt. 10:37).

Our attachment to objects should bear a proportion to their intrinsic value, then all our love to creatures would be as nothing COMPARED TO WHAT WE OWE OUR LORD AND SAVIOUR. We are to love Him MORE than anything else.

Thus, in effect, "Jacob have I loved─ selected for this specific purpose, and Esau have I hated─ or rejected for this specific call." Yet God's eternal love for Esau is revealed, since "By faith Isaac blessed Jacob AND ESAU concerning things to come." (Heb. 11:20). Esau is NOT, nor ever has been a type of the "unsaved eternally lost," though this is erroneously taught by some.

Esau was still his father's son, and received a BLESSING, but there was a different purpose for his life. It was not an eternal rejection from salvation, but from a specific call. But, we repeat, he did receive his own blessings. In fact, on that occasion when Jacob was returning home, and met up with Esau, and offered him a big present to try and court his favor again, "Esau said, I have enough, my brother; keep what you have for yourself." (Gen. 33:9). Two points: there was an acknowledging of BROTHERSHIP, and he also had been blessed till he had no lack. Esau was not excluded from the family, nor from the blessings. Praise God!

Paul then anticipates the question, and so he goes on: "What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid." (v. 14). God is not capricious, moved by a whim, a fancy, impulsive, erratic, wantonly changing His mind. He has a glorious plan being worked out through the ages. "Known unto God are all His works from the beginning of the world." (Acts 15:18).

God knew and planned from the beginning when He would call YOU! With rare wisdom and wise design He executes His plan, according "to the purpose of Him who works all things after the counsel of His own will." (Eph. 1:11). What love and mercy that He would include us in His plan NOW, drawing us to Himself to be among His "FIRST TRUSTERS" of the new creation species (Ray Prinzing)


 
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KCDAD

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GOD is Sovereign.
Deal with it.


Okay.
"
Date: 13th century
1 a : one possessing or held to possess sovereignty b : one that exercises supreme authority within a limited sphere c : an acknowledged leader : arbiter
2 : any of various gold coins of the United Kingdom"


I know you don't mean a British coin, so God exercises supreme authority...


What does that look like?
There is no devil, no evil, there is no human choice, so then no sin.



Or did you mean God COULD exercise supreme if God so desired, but God doesn't?
 
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Charis kai Dunamis

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What does that look like?
There is no devil, no evil, there is no human choice, so then no sin.

Nope. God planned the fall, God planned the method of salvation, He chose His elect, left the reprobate, etc. all before the foundation of the world.

Rev 13:8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

the Lamb who has been slain before the foundation of the world?

Planned. Salvation was planned.

How could salvation be planned if there was no fall?

The fall was planned.

Why?

Eph 1:6 ...to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. :amen:
 
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Terrence Theodore

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JDS

God does not choose who is born physically into the family of Adam.

Everyone who ever lived is born because of God. It is He who made them born one to born rich or poor, blind, or having sight, lame, or whole. God is sovereign in EVERYTHING! "And he [God] made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place" (Acts 17:26).

He has established natural laws and parents often plan the size of their families by taking steps to circumvent those laws.

Our God is not a God who has set up laws and left it to run its course. Rather, he is the God who "continually uphold all things by his powerful word" (Heb 1:3). "In him - that is God - you and EVERYONE living, have their living and moving and whole being" (Acts 17:28). "All your ways are in God" (Dan 5:23). If God were to "stop upholding the universe and all your ways," certain spurious natural laws would not all of a sudden "kick in" as a back up generator to cause you to continue. Rather, you and EVERYTHING in existence, will stop existing.


Some desire larger families and take drugs that enhance the ability to conceive and others use birth control measures to limit it. In either case it is the choice of people as to who is born or not born physically.

No one can have children if God doesn't permit. "Behold, children are a heritage from the LORD, the fruit of the womb a reward" (Psa 127:3). Please, for the sake of God, and for your own joy, let the BIBLE speak for God, and not your emotions and/or your own understanding.
 
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