Natural Evil

kristina411 · Feb 7, 2015

bhsmte said:
You are the one attaching sin to the cause and effect of people suffering, not me. It would be up to you to demonstrate how people being around sinners and or being sinners themselves, will cause them to incur a greater amount of suffering.

We will await patiently, for you to support your position, with specifics.

This is the reason I do not care for these topics. I have answered your question and it was ignored. I asked you a question and you could not answer. Talking to a brick wall doesn't even begin to explain these conversations. They get in the way of time I could be doing something useful and I will not partake in them. If you care to read my response again, making sure to read it all, and answer my question (instead of trying to redirect back to me) I would appreciate it. Otherwise take care!

kristina411 · Feb 7, 2015

bhsmte said:
And I could say, natural disasters are the result of a creator just enjoying inflicting suffering on others and my claim would be just as valid as yours, since you fail to provide any objective support for your position.

All I have given is evidence, all you have given is unfounded accusations and repeated questions without accepting or hearing the answer. Your choice. I hope you have a great day. Take care.

bhsmte · Feb 7, 2015

kristina411 said:
All I have given is evidence, all you have given is unfounded accusations and repeated questions without accepting or hearing the answer. Your choice. I hope you have a great day. Take care.

What evidence did you give?

kristina411 · Feb 7, 2015

A play by play of our conversation and So you can see where questions were asked and answered I will bold the questions and highlight the answers. I will make the question you ignore red, so you can attempt to prove something that has yet to be proven.
I say natural disasters are a result of sin. They are a result of an imperfect world made imperfect because of sin.
You respond with:

Randomly kill people with natural disasters because there is sin in the world? If you can reconcile that type of thought process, knock yourself out.

Before I can respond you also respond with

Do you think all humans suffer equally during their life?

So I respond to your first post saying:

It is a cause and effect situation. A finger is not pointed and a great voice sounding out "I want those people killed". We live on this Earth, as a result of those before us. We live in the way we do because of the people who came before. Our lives are a result of their choices. You can not eat a cheeseburger without it being a direct result of someone else's choice in many ways. Everything is cause and effect, evolution is cause and effect. Natural disasters are cause and effect.
Everything that does not produce goodness and holiness produces darkness and as a result we are left with immeasurable disasters.

And to your second response I say:

Oh certainly not. Not even in my own marriage. My husband had a much easier life than I have, my eldest daughter has had much more pain than the youngest. What I do know, my hardships as well as my daughters have all been results of sin, ours or someone else's. And more often than not, those who suffer the greatest at around the biggest of sinners.

You respond with:

I guess it is good to stay away from those sinners then. Also, to show your "cause and effect' statement, you would have to support your statement with evidence, that those who suffer the most, are either around the most sinners or perform more sin themselves.Good luck with that.

My response:

Much easier than you assume. Abuse survivors are around abusive people clearly, and abuse (according to the new testament law) is sinful. The innocent who suffer in war zones suffer at the hands of sinners. Sex slaves, at the hands of sinners. Child factories, at the hands of sinners. Murder victims, at the hands of sinners. Natural disasters quickly wipe out many people on rare occasions. As a human race we do this every day to greater numbers. We do not even have the grace to make it end quickly but allow others to suffer for our satisfaction. Cause and effect. A child is starving right now here in America as a result of me typing this message. I do not need a smart phone to go online, I could have gotten a basic phone and given the extra money to a child who would be saved by a meal. But I am consumed by sin (although I try to fight it)so I think I deserve this phone and ignore the child starving. Hurricanes/tornadoes/etc are a result of living in an imperfect world that was made imperfect the moment sin entered its dwellings.

And yours:

Why don't you start with the 9 million children who die each year before the age of five and many of which, with immense suffering. Now, think about the suffering the parents and families incurred and all the prayers to save their child that were not answered. Start with that group, who has suffered quite a bit and demonstrate how their suffering is related to being around more sinners or sinning more themselves.

I cannot fully answer this question without the details of your claim, who the 9million were so i respond with:

Who are these 9 million children that die? If you are speaking in general terms you would need to break down the reasons each child dies. If you want to go into the ones whose lives were lost by disease, born with deformities... The bible explains that this is caused by sin from our ancestors. It is tragic but it is the result of the sin before us still effecting us so that we know sin has lasting and tragic effects.

And where everything circled back around with your next post:
You are the one attaching sin to the cause and effect of people suffering, not me. It would be up to you to demonstrate how people being around sinners and or being sinners themselves, will cause them to incur a greater amount of suffering. We will await patiently, for you to support your position, with specifics.

And the circle continues

quatona · Feb 7, 2015

kristina411 said:
Hurricanes/tornadoes/etc are a result of living in an imperfect world that was made imperfect the moment sin entered its dwellings
^that is my explanation.

Sorry, that´s not an explanation how sin caused hurricanes. It´s an empty assertion without any explanatory power.

bhsmte · Feb 7, 2015

kristina411 said:
A play by play of our conversation:
I say natural disasters are a result of sin. They are a result of an imperfect world made imperfect because of sin.
You respond with: Randomly kill people with natural disasters because there is sin in the world?
If you can reconcile that type of thought process, knock yourself out.
Before I can respond you also respond with Do you think all humans suffer equally during their life?

So I respond to your first post saying It is a cause and effect situation. A finger is not pointed and a great voice sounding out "I want those people killed". We live on this Earth, as a result of those before us. We live in the way we do because of the people who came before. Our lives are a result of their choices. You can not eat a cheeseburger without it being a direct result of someone else's choice in many ways. Everything is cause and effect, evolution is cause and effect. Natural disasters are cause and effect.
Everything that does not produce goodness and holiness produces darkness and as a result we are left with immeasurable disasters.
And to your second response I say: Oh certainly not. Not even in my own marriage. My husband had a much easier life than I have, my eldest daughter has had much more pain than the youngest.

What I do know, my hardships as well as my daughters have all been results of sin, ours or someone else's. And more often than not, those who suffer the greatest at around the biggest of sinners.
You respond with I guess it is good to stay away from those sinners then.

Also, to show your "cause and effect' statement, you would have to support your statement with evidence, that those who suffer the most, are either around the most sinners or perform more sin themselves.
Good luck with that.

My response: Much easier than you assume. Abuse survivors are around abusive people clearly, and abuse (according to the new testament law) is sinful. The innocent who suffer in war zones suffer at the hands of sinners. Sex slaves, at the hands of sinners. Child factories, at the hands of sinners. Murder victims, at the hands of sinners. Natural disasters quickly wipe out many people on rare occasions. As a human race we do this every day to greater numbers. We do not even have the grace to make it end quickly but allow others to suffer for our satisfaction.
Cause and effect.
A child is starving right now here in America as a result of me typing this message. I do not need a smart phone to go online, I could have gotten a basic phone and given the extra money to a child who would be saved by a meal. But I am consumed by sin (although I try to fight it)so I think I deserve this phone and ignore the child starving.
Hurricanes/tornadoes/etc are a result of living in an imperfect world that was made imperfect the moment sin entered its dwellings.

And yours: Why don't you start with the 9 million children who die each year before the age of five and many of which, with immense suffering.

Now, think about the suffering the parents and families incurred and all the prayers to save their child that were not answered.

Start with that group, who has suffered quite a bit and demonstrate how their suffering is related to being around more sinners or sinning more themselves.
i cannot fully answer this question without the details of your claim, who the 9million were so i respond with: Who are these 9 million children that die? If you are speaking in general terms you would need to break down the reasons each child dies. If you want to go into the ones whose lives were lost by disease, born with deformities... The bible explains that this is caused by sin from our ancestors. It is tragic but it is the result of the sin before us still effecting us so that we know sin has lasting and tragic effects.And where everything circled back around with your next post: You are the one attaching sin to the cause and effect of people suffering, not me. It would be up to you to demonstrate how people being around sinners and or being sinners themselves, will cause them to incur a greater amount of suffering.

We will await patiently, for you to support your position, with specifics.

So you can see where questions were asked and answered I will bold the questions and highlight the answers. I will make the question you ignore red, so you can attempt to prove something that has yet to be proven.

I still see no objective evidence supporting that natural disasters are the result of sin.

Simply making a statement that natural disasters is caused by sin, is not evidence, it is a claim.

essentialsaltes · Feb 7, 2015

kristina411 said:
Hurricanes/tornadoes/etc are a result of living in an imperfect world that was made imperfect the moment sin entered its dwellings.

No, they are the result of fluid dynamics. Moral (or immoral) acts don't change the laws of physics.

kristina411 · Feb 7, 2015

bhsmte said:
I still see no objective evidence supporting that natural disasters are the result of sin.

Simply making a statement that natural disasters is caused by sin, is not evidence, it is a claim.

Natural disasters were never, not once, your attempted point. You continued to speak on people who suffer, not natural disasters.
You can argue the logic behind an imperfect world being full of sin as the reason for natural disasters but that was never your grounds. If that was the direction you wished to take, instead of suffering, it should have been stated.

variant · Feb 7, 2015

kristina411 said:
Natural disasters were never, not once, your attempted point. You continued to speak on people who suffer, not natural disasters.
You can argue the logic behind an imperfect world being full of sin as the reason for natural disasters but that was never your grounds. If that was the direction you wished to take, instead of suffering, it should have been stated.

In the context of it being what the thread is about...

And you claiming that natural disasters were the result of sin directly on more than one occasion now.

kristina411 · Feb 7, 2015

variant said:
In the context of it being what the thread is about...

And yet I wasn't the one who went off topic, merely explained to the one who did. I find it rather interesting how everyone on thos forum likes to ignore everything unless it goes along with their ideas. Everyone expects someone else to answer to them. But I dont have to, no one does. I am doing a service to spend my valuable time answering questions, especially off topic. I haven't the time to run around in circles with people shut off to everything but their own ideas.

Chany · Feb 7, 2015

kristina411 said:
Natural disasters were never, not once, your attempted point. You continued to speak on people who suffer, not natural disasters.
You can argue the logic behind an imperfect world being full of sin as the reason for natural disasters but that was never your grounds. If that was the direction you wished to take, instead of suffering, it should have been stated.

The first quote you gave from bhsmte dealt with natural disasters.

variant · Feb 7, 2015

kristina411 said:
And yet I wasn't the one who went off topic, merely explained to the one who did. I find it rather interesting how everyone on thos forum likes to ignore everything unless it goes along with their ideas. Everyone expects someone else to answer to them. But I dont have to, no one does. I am doing a service to spend my valuable time answering questions, especially off topic. I haven't the time to run around in circles with people shut off to everything but their own ideas.

You're accusing him of going off topic but your exchange with him starts with you asserting that hurricanes are caused by sin.

Achilles6129 · Feb 7, 2015

So here are a few Biblical passages about natural evil. Both sides can read them and then comment from there:

"14 But if you will not obey me, and do not observe all these commandments, 15 if you spurn my statutes, and abhor my ordinances, so that you will not observe all my commandments, and you break my covenant, 16 I in turn will do this to you: I will bring terror on you; consumption and fever that waste the eyes and cause life to pine away. You shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it. 17 I will set my face against you, and you shall be struck down by your enemies; your foes shall rule over you, and you shall flee though no one pursues you. 18 And if in spite of this you will not obey me, I will continue to punish you sevenfold for your sins. 19 I will break your proud glory, and I will make your sky like iron and your earth like copper. 20 Your strength shall be spent to no purpose: your land shall not yield its produce, and the trees of the land shall not yield their fruit.

21 If you continue hostile to me, and will not obey me, I will continue to plague you sevenfold for your sins. 22 I will let loose wild animals against you, and they shall bereave you of your children and destroy your livestock; they shall make you few in number, and your roads shall be deserted.

23 If in spite of these punishments you have not turned back to me, but continue hostile to me, 24 then I too will continue hostile to you: I myself will strike you sevenfold for your sins. 25 I will bring the sword against you, executing vengeance for the covenant; and if you withdraw within your cities, I will send pestilence among you, and you shall be delivered into enemy hands. 26 When I break your staff of bread, ten women shall bake your bread in a single oven, and they shall dole out your bread by weight; and though you eat, you shall not be satisfied.

27 But if, despite this, you disobey me, and continue hostile to me, 28 I will continue hostile to you in fury; I in turn will punish you myself sevenfold for your sins. 29 You shall eat the flesh of your sons, and you shall eat the flesh of your daughters. 30 I will destroy your high places and cut down your incense altars; I will heap your carcasses on the carcasses of your idols. I will abhor you. 31 I will lay your cities waste, will make your sanctuaries desolate, and I will not smell your pleasing odors. 32 I will devastate the land, so that your enemies who come to settle in it shall be appalled at it. 33 And you I will scatter among the nations, and I will unsheathe the sword against you; your land shall be a desolation, and your cities a waste." Lev. 26:14-33 (NRSV)

"15 But if you will not obey the Lord your God by diligently observing all his commandments and decrees, which I am commanding you today, then all these curses shall come upon you and overtake you:

16 Cursed shall you be in the city, and cursed shall you be in the field.

17 Cursed shall be your basket and your kneading bowl.

18 Cursed shall be the fruit of your womb, the fruit of your ground, the increase of your cattle and the issue of your flock.

19 Cursed shall you be when you come in, and cursed shall you be when you go out.

20 The Lord will send upon you disaster, panic, and frustration in everything you attempt to do, until you are destroyed and perish quickly, on account of the evil of your deeds, because you have forsaken me. 21 The Lord will make the pestilence cling to you until it has consumed you off the land that you are entering to possess. 22 The Lord will afflict you with consumption, fever, inflammation, with fiery heat and drought, and with blight and mildew; they shall pursue you until you perish. 23 The sky over your head shall be bronze, and the earth under you iron. 24 The Lord will change the rain of your land into powder, and only dust shall come down upon you from the sky until you are destroyed.

25 The Lord will cause you to be defeated before your enemies; you shall go out against them one way and flee before them seven ways. You shall become an object of horror to all the kingdoms of the earth. 26 Your corpses shall be food for every bird of the air and animal of the earth, and there shall be no one to frighten them away. 27 The Lord will afflict you with the boils of Egypt, with ulcers, scurvy, and itch, of which you cannot be healed. 28 The Lord will afflict you with madness, blindness, and confusion of mind; 29 you shall grope about at noon as blind people grope in darkness, but you shall be unable to find your way; and you shall be continually abused and robbed, without anyone to help. 30 You shall become engaged to a woman, but another man shall lie with her. You shall build a house, but not live in it. You shall plant a vineyard, but not enjoy its fruit. 31 Your ox shall be butchered before your eyes, but you shall not eat of it. Your donkey shall be stolen in front of you, and shall not be restored to you. Your sheep shall be given to your enemies, without anyone to help you. 32 Your sons and daughters shall be given to another people, while you look on; you will strain your eyes looking for them all day but be powerless to do anything. 33 A people whom you do not know shall eat up the fruit of your ground and of all your labors; you shall be continually abused and crushed, 34 and driven mad by the sight that your eyes shall see. 35 The Lord will strike you on the knees and on the legs with grievous boils of which you cannot be healed, from the sole of your foot to the crown of your head. 36 The Lord will bring you, and the king whom you set over you, to a nation that neither you nor your ancestors have known, where you shall serve other gods, of wood and stone. 37 You shall become an object of horror, a proverb, and a byword among all the peoples where the Lord will lead you.

38 You shall carry much seed into the field but shall gather little in, for the locust shall consume it. 39 You shall plant vineyards and dress them, but you shall neither drink the wine nor gather the grapes, for the worm shall eat them. 40 You shall have olive trees throughout all your territory, but you shall not anoint yourself with the oil, for your olives shall drop off. 41 You shall have sons and daughters, but they shall not remain yours, for they shall go into captivity. 42 All your trees and the fruit of your ground the cicada shall take over. 43 Aliens residing among you shall ascend above you higher and higher, while you shall descend lower and lower. 44 They shall lend to you but you shall not lend to them; they shall be the head and you shall be the tail.

45 All these curses shall come upon you, pursuing and overtaking you until you are destroyed, because you did not obey the Lord your God, by observing the commandments and the decrees that he commanded you. 46 They shall be among you and your descendants as a sign and a portent forever.

47 Because you did not serve the Lord your God joyfully and with gladness of heart for the abundance of everything, 48 therefore you shall serve your enemies whom the Lord will send against you, in hunger and thirst, in nakedness and lack of everything. He will put an iron yoke on your neck until he has destroyed you. 49 The Lord will bring a nation from far away, from the end of the earth, to swoop down on you like an eagle, a nation whose language you do not understand, 50 a grim-faced nation showing no respect to the old or favor to the young. 51 It shall consume the fruit of your livestock and the fruit of your ground until you are destroyed, leaving you neither grain, wine, and oil, nor the increase of your cattle and the issue of your flock, until it has made you perish. 52 It shall besiege you in all your towns until your high and fortified walls, in which you trusted, come down throughout your land; it shall besiege you in all your towns throughout the land that the Lord your God has given you. 53 In the desperate straits to which the enemy siege reduces you, you will eat the fruit of your womb, the flesh of your own sons and daughters whom the Lord your God has given you. 54 Even the most refined and gentle of men among you will begrudge food to his own brother, to the wife whom he embraces, and to the last of his remaining children, 55 giving to none of them any of the flesh of his children whom he is eating, because nothing else remains to him, in the desperate straits to which the enemy siege will reduce you in all your towns. 56 She who is the most refined and gentle among you, so gentle and refined that she does not venture to set the sole of her foot on the ground, will begrudge food to the husband whom she embraces, to her own son, and to her own daughter, 57 begrudging even the afterbirth that comes out from between her thighs, and the children that she bears, because she is eating them in secret for lack of anything else, in the desperate straits to which the enemy siege will reduce you in your towns.

58 If you do not diligently observe all the words of this law that are written in this book, fearing this glorious and awesome name, the Lord your God, 59 then the Lord will overwhelm both you and your offspring with severe and lasting afflictions and grievous and lasting maladies. 60 He will bring back upon you all the diseases of Egypt, of which you were in dread, and they shall cling to you. 61 Every other malady and affliction, even though not recorded in the book of this law, the Lord will inflict on you until you are destroyed. 62 Although once you were as numerous as the stars in heaven, you shall be left few in number, because you did not obey the Lord your God. 63 And just as the Lord took delight in making you prosperous and numerous, so the Lord will take delight in bringing you to ruin and destruction; you shall be plucked off the land that you are entering to possess." Deut. 28:15-63 (NRSV)

"14 Later Jesus found him in the temple and said to him, See, you have been made well! Do not sin any more, so that nothing worse happens to you." Jn. 5:14 (NRSV)

There are other passages as well, for example, such as:

"5 who are being protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." 1 Pet. 1:5 (NRSV)

Thoughts?

kristina411 · Feb 7, 2015

variant said:
You're accusing him of going off topic but your exchange with him starts with you asserting that hurricanes are caused by sin.

Because that is the topic. My answer was sin as the cause of natural disasters, he changed topic by discussing suffering to which I replied. I can't believe I'm wasting time on this.

variant · Feb 7, 2015

Thoughts?

It doesn't seem that God protects believers from hurricanes.

kristina411 · Feb 7, 2015

Chany said:
The first quote you gave from bhsmte dealt with natural disasters.

Lol yall are more difficult to talk to than a lawyer getting a speeding ticket!

His second post, before I could even address him, he brought suffering in. I answered both on natural disasters and his off topic point of suffering. He wanted to stay off topic and only follow the suffering lead so that was his purpose clearly.

variant · Feb 7, 2015

kristina411 said:
Because that is the topic. My answer was sin as the cause of natural disasters, he changed topic by discussing suffering to which I replied. I can't believe I'm wasting time on this.

You don't think the generalized suffering of humanity due to the conditions on earth is on topic of naturally occurring evil?

bhsmte · Feb 7, 2015

kristina411 said:
Natural disasters were never, not once, your attempted point. You continued to speak on people who suffer, not natural disasters.
You can argue the logic behind an imperfect world being full of sin as the reason for natural disasters but that was never your grounds. If that was the direction you wished to take, instead of suffering, it should have been stated.

Natural disasters cause suffering, wouldn't you say?

And here is a direct quote from you, taken from post #39:

Hurricanes/tornadoes/etc are a result of living in an imperfect world that was made imperfect the moment sin entered its dwellings
^that is my explanation.

This is a claim, not an explanation. As I stated, I can claim, natural disasters happen because a creator likes people to suffer. My point is just as valid as yours and we are still waiting for you to present evidence, to support your statement above in bold.

Achilles6129 · Feb 7, 2015

variant said:
It doesn't seem that God protects believers from hurricanes.

Doesn't he?

"24 Everyone then who hears these words of mine and acts on them will be like a wise man who built his house on rock. 25 The rain fell, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on rock. 26 And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not act on them will be like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it felland great was its fall!" Mt. 7:24-27 (NRSV)

"12 But before all this occurs, they will arrest you and persecute you; they will hand you over to synagogues and prisons, and you will be brought before kings and governors because of my name. 13 This will give you an opportunity to testify. 14 So make up your minds not to prepare your defense in advance; 15 for I will give you words[c] and a wisdom that none of your opponents will be able to withstand or contradict. 16 You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, by relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. 17 You will be hated by all because of my name. 18 But not a hair of your head will perish. 19 By your endurance you will gain your souls." Lu. 21:12-18 (NRSV)

variant · Feb 7, 2015

Doesn't he?

No. I have seen no evidence to show that believers aren't hit by hurricanes, but plenty of evidence that suggests that they are.

Do you actually think unbelievers are going to take the Bible to be true over their own eyes?

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