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Nationalism and Patriotism Questions

Shiloh Raven

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My first question: Do you think nationalism and patriotism are good to participate in?

My second question: Do you think it is wrong for Christians to pledge their allegiance to their country?

My final question: Do you think children should be taught nationalism and patriotism before they are old enough to understand the concepts?

Please be aware that I am not only referring to Americans. I am interested in what people in other countries other than America feel about nationalism and patriotism. I am rather curious to know if nationalism and patriotism in other countries are as fervent and vigorous as they can be in America. Thank you, in advance, for your answers.

One last thing before ending my post, please be respectful to everyone who participates in this thread. Thank you.
 
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Jack of Spades

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Since being an American is the default assumption in CF, for the purposes of the thread I feel it's appropriate to mention right away that I'm from Finland.

My first question: Do you think nationalism and patriotism are good to participate in?

In my understanding, patriotism means I want my people to be in charge of their own destiny. My country is racially homogenous, so it's easy to see it as a homeland for my people, and as a past homeland of our ancestors. I like the arrangement of having Finns governing their own country, instead of having foreigners running it for us. So, in that sense, I am a patriot.

Nationalism, in my vocabulary, suggests an idea of superiority over other countries. I don't like that. Like any other sense of superiority, it's a destructive power. Maybe it has it's place as an emergency measure, like at times of defensive war, but not as an everyday attitude.

My second question: Do you think it is wrong for Christians to pledge their allegiance to their country?

Not really, the fact that I'm a citizen is in itself a kind of an unceremonial pledge which comes with it's rights and responsibilities.

My final question: Do you think children should be taught nationalism and patriotism before they are old enough to understand the concepts?

It's a good thing, but I believe it is appropriate to combine patriotism with proper respect for people of other nationalities aswell. Live and let live, love your country and let others love theirs.

Please be aware that I am not only referring to Americans. I am interested in what people in other countries other than America feel about nationalism and patriotism. I am rather curious to know if nationalism and patriotism in other countries are as fervent and vigorous as they can be in America. Thank you, in advance, for your answers.

For all I know, we're not as patriotic or nationalist as Americans are. And I think that is true for most of the Europe. In Europe the world wars were caused by excessive nationalism and that left the entire continent with a collective trauma about it. Whenever someone goes around waving a flag and singing songs, a lot of people tend to have historical flashbacks of 1910's and 1930's and react like "Oh no, not again! We know where that thing leads" ;)
 
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Shiloh Raven

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Since being an American is the default assumption in CF, for the purposes of the thread I feel it's appropriate to mention right away that I'm from Finland.

Thank you for your thoughtful and respectful response, Jack of Spades. I appreciate it.
 
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FireDragon76

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My first question: Do you think nationalism and patriotism are good to participate in?

Patriotism, yes... nationalism, no. In fact I see nationalism as sinful idolatry that often results in lack of love for other human beings.

My second question: Do you think it is wrong for Christians to pledge their allegiance to their country?

I think that's a very good question. As a Christian my allegiance should be first to Christ. Other than that, I haven't thought about it much.. maybe I should. I haven't had to say the pledge in a very long time.
 
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Paidiske

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My first question: Do you think nationalism and patriotism are good to participate in?

My second question: Do you think it is wrong for Christians to pledge their allegiance to their country?

My final question: Do you think children should be taught nationalism and patriotism before they are old enough to understand the concepts?

I'm an Australian citizen, after migrating here from South Africa.

I don't see much that's positive about nationalism and patriotism. At best they can inspire a willingness to work towards the good of a particular group of people, but they suggest that this is to the exclusion or at the expense of others. (In my mind nationalism/patriotism are also inevitably linked with war and the justification of war). I think we need to have a global view of human welfare, not a narrow view which says that as long as my country and its citizens benefit, we don't care what that does to others.

I don't think it's wrong to pledge allegiance to a country - I guess I see this as a version of "render unto Caesar..." - but for a Christian it should always be God first, country second. When a country acts evilly it should not have our support to do that.

So that would leave me with the idea that as far as children go, it's fine to teach them to be good and diligent citizens of their own country, but always with an eye to a bigger horizon and a wider world.
 
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tz620q

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I think we need to have a global view of human welfare, not a narrow view which says that as long as my country and its citizens benefit, we don't care what that does to others.

I don't think it's wrong to pledge allegiance to a country - I guess I see this as a version of "render unto Caesar..." - but for a Christian it should always be God first, country second. When a country acts evilly it should not have our support to do that.

So that would leave me with the idea that as far as children go, it's fine to teach them to be good and diligent citizens of their own country, but always with an eye to a bigger horizon and a wider world.

Have you read Fowler's "Stages of Faith"?
 
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PloverWing

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My first question: Do you think nationalism and patriotism are good to participate in?

My second question: Do you think it is wrong for Christians to pledge their allegiance to their country?

My final question: Do you think children should be taught nationalism and patriotism before they are old enough to understand the concepts?

I'm afraid the word "patriotism" has all sorts of negative associations for me -- war, McCarthy, xenophobia. I can't support that. Similarly, in saying the pledge of allegiance, I'm afraid that I'd be promising I'd go kill for my country if I were ever drafted, which is why I stopped saying the pledge when I became old enough to start reflecting on what it meant. I respect, though, that other people have different associations with "patriotism" and mean different things when they say the pledge.

"Patriotism" can also mean working with my fellow citizens to make my town, state, and country the best it can be, and to serve the common good instead of just my narrow self-interest. I strongly support doing this, though I avoid using the word "patriotism" for it.

Children will pick up values from their parents, so you may as well choose what values you're teaching. I've tried to teach my kids (by word and example) that all people on earth are precious children of God, whether they're Americans or not, and that as American citizens we have a responsibility to vote intelligently, to work towards public policies that will make our country a good place for everyone within our borders, and to volunteer in our local communities. I think I'd call it "civic responsibility" rather than "patriotism".

I'd prefer that kids not have to say the pledge of allegiance before they're old enough to understand all of the words and decide if that's a promise they want to make. I'm not sure how it helps anyone, actually, for first graders to make promises they don't understand.
 
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graceandpeace

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I consider myself patriotic, but not a nationalist. I care about the well-being of fellow citizens, but I shouldn't lose sight of others in the world.

I don't think there's a problem with pledging allegiance...though honestly no one has ever asked me about its morality before. Perhaps this comes back to the first question - is pledging allegiance a patriotic gesture, or confirming a sort of nationalist dedication at all costs?
 
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Qyöt27

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More like protecting nationalist cohesion, since the intent behind it is to instill its values by daily repetition from a young age, and the younger you are when you start doing something, the more it seems 'normal'. About the only time I feel something like the pledge would be appropriate would be during the naturalization process for those that want to become citizens. Then something like that makes sense, although it still feels far too reminiscent of a call-and-response section during a church service. And there's plenty of public events where things like these make *zero* sense, like sporting events, outside of international competitions where hearing the representative countries' national anthems is an obvious thing.

I would make the patriotic/nationalist division at the difference between civic responsibility (to echo PloverWing) and ethnocentric exceptionalism. I'm not going to imagine that nationalism is a recent invention, but its more pernicious forms only really started to manifest during and after the 19th century. 'Patriotism' would be rightfully understood as putting your community before yourself, in at least some capacity for imagining the country as a large community, with some acknowledgement of the term's origin in the sense of people asserting a right to self-determination and home rule. That's not what nationalism is, though; nationalism is making an -ism out of some kind of (usually, fictionalized) national identity, which gives rise to nativism and the ability to condone imperialistic urges without thinking twice about it. But because 'nationalist' has poor connotations, they'll usually use 'patriotism' instead, and try to conflate the two.

I honestly don't know how to fix the problem, vis-à-vis public schools, because while there are laws protecting a student's right to not stand or recite the pledge, a parent telling their child not to do it would be putting the child in the middle of a conflict between the parents and school (and at risk for being harassed by classmates/teachers or even [illegally] punished for refusing to comply), and that's not fair to the child, especially when the child is too young to understand the situation and actually make the determination to not say it on their own. And legislative solutions to prevent it would be just as unpopular if not simply a no-op that would just end up being overturned on First Amendment grounds anyway. Because you know people would say "you can't ban the Pledge, freedom of speech!", even though being coerced to recite it isn't exactly freedom of speech. But cognitive dissonance is a major side-effect of many of the -isms that gave rise to this being a thing in the first place.
 
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skalle

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My first question: Do you think nationalism and patriotism are good to participate in?

No. You didn't choose where you born. Nobody chooses where they were born. I find it silly to be proud of one's birthplace and to love it over others. Your fellow countrymen's lives don't matter more than those of people in other countries. I find that there's a difference between wanting to be a positive force in one's community and being a patriot or nationalist. I know there is a distinction to be made between the two, but I actually dispute it. I don't see either as being healthy.

My second question: Do you think it is wrong for Christians to pledge their allegiance to their country?

One's allegiance should be to God, not a country. I will not recite the American pledge of allegiance.

My final question: Do you think children should be taught nationalism and patriotism before they are old enough to understand the concepts?

No. If I have children, I will lead by example and let them decide what they want to do with their lives when they are old enough. That doesn't mean that I'll shield them from nationalistic or patriotic ideas, of course, but we will discuss the positives and negatives of such.
 
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Uncle Tommy

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I wanted to make sure I understood the difference between nationalism and patriotism. I support neither and consider both to be idolatry if the definitions I found are accurate. As for pledging allegiance to one's country; again I find it idolatrous, and no longer recite the pledge of allegiance although I do remain respectfully silent when others do. I now am remorseful for taking an oath when I enlisted in the U.S. Navy. Enlistment was regretful as well. As for children, clearly if I find nationalism and patriotism to be idolatrous I wouldn't want it taught to children. Please don't misunderstand me I believe that as a citizen there are many responsibilities that I believe I need to fulfill. Paying taxes, participating in the democratic process and voting etc. are all important. I also greatly appreciate the country I was born into and consider myself very fortunate. I simply believe that God should come before everything else.
 
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RedPonyDriver

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I am a US citizen. That said i am NOT a "patriot". There are many things in my country that disturb me greatly, and that interferes with the idea that the US is just so great. It isn't. It seems that many here think that the US is the only first world country and do not realize that most of the first world is far ahead of the US in many areas including social welfare, infant mortality, income and yes, even FREEDOM.

My parents left a communist country before I was born, and I guess I'm glad they did. However, this ultra-nationalism and ultra-patriotism that I see, especially from certain groups that seem to have mixed religion and politics bothers me more than I can say.
 
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LionL

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My first question: Do you think nationalism and patriotism are good to participate in?
No - they divide us from anyone deemed 'different'.

My second question: Do you think it is wrong for Christians to pledge their allegiance to their country?
Pledging allegiance is not required in my country (UK). The closest I can think of is when MPs must swear loyalty to the Queen. Were I an MP I would lie so that I could take my seat (I have no loyalty to the Queen).

My final question: Do you think children should be taught nationalism and patriotism before they are old enough to understand the concepts?
Absolutely not.
 
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dzheremi

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There is a long and complex history of the interaction between Christians and the state which makes me hesitant to answer too definitely whether or not such things are good, since to do so it is necessary to look at them abstractly, which to me makes any answers less illuminating than they could be.

I remember once asking our priest why we pray for the king (president) of the land, and refer to him as God's servant in prayers said during the liturgy if in Egypt this hasn't really ever been the case (NB: Egypt was a Christian country by the confession of the majority of its people for several centuries, not by the conversion of its king, unlike in other countries like Ethiopia or Armenia, which had Orthodox Christian monarchies). To the best of my recollection, he said that this prayer was placed where it is in the liturgy among various petitions asking God to safeguard various aspects of life in Egypt because it was often not safe. So we also pray that God bless the land and make it fertile, because if it isn't, people will die. We pray that God keep the church or the monastery safe (as in the literal building that we are in) because it was common in the old days for those places to be attacked by bands of robbers or other hostile forces (St. Moses the Ethiopian, one of our most famous saints, had once been one such a robber, and later was killed by them together with other monks of the monastery). In light of this, praying for the leader is our way of both recognizing that God has the authority in all situations (so if we have a bad leader, as we usually did then and do now, we will still pray for him, rather than cowering), and that, if given the choice, we would rather that he be God's servant than not!

I think I'd have to answer these questions only in that sort of light. If it is patriotism with a view towards wanting to live in a peaceful country, where safety and dignity are respected, and the people are not exploited by their government, then there's nothing in that which a Christian should feel hostile towards. Whether or not that's actually what's going on in any given country is a different story, but as far as patriotism is concerned, I think a certain type of it can be healthy, if it inspires people to make their community's better, rather than just waving a flag to show their patriotism or whatever. I think it's a million times more patriotic to feed the hungry and comfort people who are suffering than to recite some pledge that basically amounts to declaring allegiance to abstract concepts like 'liberty' or whatever. What's liberty to your neighbor who is starving, or the family down the block who are freezing because they can't pay their heat bill?

Nationalism...ehhh...I guess you can find a lot of it in Christian churches, in the sense that the particular form of Christianity that is embraced in the oldest still-existing Christian communities (e.g., the Greeks, the Copts, the Syriacs/Assyrians/Aramaeans, etc.) tends to have something of a 'national' character to it by virtue of being a part of how particular ethnic groups tend to identify themselves. But that's because it's so old, not because those people by definition think that they are better than anyone else. I mean, for sure there are probably some who do, but at least from my experience with the Copts, it's more confusion or curiosity about the rest of the world. Like the bishop of Asyut famously said to the Presbyterians who came to Egypt in the 1860s looking to 'convert the Copts to Christianity' (hahaha), "Our people have been living with Christ for almost two thousand years; how long have your people been living with Him?" When you are indisputably the first people of your location, and you know that, you don't really need anyone else to tell you your business.

But that's miles away from the standard American (and Arab, and European, and every other colonizer's) narrative that since they bring such great things to the world they ought to be thought of in exceptional terms. That's ridiculous (just ask the rest of the world!). Places are what the people in them make them, not because of some essential 'Americanness' or whatever that makes them so great. So I don't think that's a good attitude to continue in children, or adults for that matter.
 
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Tallguy88

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In my view, patriotism is good while nationalism is not. While the differences can sometimes be a bit different, in my mind the essential differences would be illustrated by the following statements:

Patriotism: God bless the USA!

Nationalism: God bless the USA, and no where else!

Because basically, why wouldn't I want my country blessed by God? What else would I pray for? Violence, war, famine? Of course not. I want my country, my state, my town, my family and me to prosper. But I don't want others to not prosper.

There's no problem with pledging allegiance to your country, as long as you know that you are a citizen of the Kingdom of Heaven first and foremost.
 
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Cimorene

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I'm American but live in Canada now. I see the differences in patriotism & nationalism between the 2. I like the Canadian attitude way better tbh. People love their country but they're not like WE'RE NUMBER 1! & they don't get obsessive about stuff like pledges, national anthems. I don't think kids should start saying the pledge in preschool & stuff. I don't see that as patriotism really, just ritual.
 
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