Discussion NAR when did it go wrong, what faults can you list?

[Alithis]

Well I would say this: God knows how to handle His people when they get out of bounds. I won't go into details, but I've seen leadership that lost the plot, so to speak, get righted by the divine intervention of God. It wasn't pretty, but better to be corrected than adrift rudderless.

The fivefold ministry, as far as I can tell, should be a team that reflects facets of Jesus' ministry on earth where people functioning in one role or another defer to one another out of reverence to Christ as the Book of Acts clearly shows they did in the 1st century.

Also, to suggest the 1st century apostles were special men is not Biblical. The Book of Hebrews calls the prophet Elijah "a man with a nature like our own." The Biblical standard is for God to take unremarkable men and do extraordinary things through them.

Whoah!!! Where in the world are coming from with this . . . no offence, but your remarks are nothing less than . . . I don't know what I can say . . . you really need to go back and read through your Bible . . . I'm absolutely stunned!!

hi guys

i have begun to hear this NAR reference but havent really know what it was in reference to .

personally iv become involved with "The Last Reformation" which focuses on living as they did in the book of acts .. "go ,preach the gospel ,heal the sick ,drive out demons ,raise the dead ,baptize people and make new disciples.. (new disciples are people who then Also go and do the same thing . a disciple being "an apprentice , one who learns and trains practically to become LIKE their master )) iv linked to the web site and will share some clips displaying it is not another denomination but simply many people who are tired of being dead lumps on sunday seats learning nothing practical while the select few mister the gospel and do not teach the "church" how to do so.. just lecture them about it . As you canot lead any one where you are not going yourself . it focuses NOTHING on "feeling" or the carnality of always chasing the next "feeling of anointing " . -but i digress in what's becoming an advertisement haha .. back to the topic ..

biblicist im not sure why the adverse reaction to the comment that there was nothing "special about the apostles " becaseu there wasn't they were comon man fisherman and what not .

though i think i view the 5 fold ministry a little different to you both .. a little.
but maybe not . the order of first apostles then prophets ... etc ..is not hierarchy in nature . that is a creation of Rome .

it is more an order of how things occur -ie: first the ones who are SENT (apostolic) go (it actually encapsulates EVERY SINGLE disciple of the lord Jesus who opens their heart in obedience to the great commission -it excludes NONE . so they are sent to spread the gospel -the prophecy then flows as new believers are repentant ,baptised i water and then recive the holy Spirit with the evidence of tongues as a sign they have received the Holy Spirit .. and the holy Spirit begins speaking into their lives guiding them to all truth directing exhorting building and also rebuking and chastising when required ( i have observed rebuke and chastisement has been left off the list of purposes of prophecy in the last 3o years or so .-i believe thats an error -gathering only that which tickles the ears ) -Then comes teachers .. for obvious reasons .to teach the new believers further things and then the pastors to care and sheppard the folk as it grows in the new place ,be it 5 people 50 people of a thousand people .. etc .. ANd then from those new believers (and this can happen in a matter of months (not years of seminary teaching that fills the intellectual mind and kills the spirit and "doing" of the gospel ) comes a whole new wave of those obedient to the great commission and so the cycle of growth is perpetuated .

quite opposite to the present discipleship which takes a new believer and deciples them to sit on a seat on a sunday until they become dead as the seat they sit on .

So in short i view the five fold ministry as linial on a time line (perhaps ) but certainly NOT hierarchical- there is one body and it has ONE head and that is Christ who governed by ONE holy Spirit .

any new movement which seeks to hold fast to a "system " which concludes that they must be the ones to decide what believers do where they go and when (ie imposes rules of intellectual training thereby not trusting in the power of the Holy Spiirt to lead new believers into all truth ) are merely trying to "control " the body of christ according to their OWN will -they need to let Go and let GOD be GOD .

---------------------------------------
i add this clip .. to accompany my above post and as a teaser -i am going to post a lot more about this elsewhere.
you will note .. no church building exist , no $ collected for building associated expenses ..no prosperity teachings no bless me teachings ,no continually seeking carnal spiritual feeeeeling - just repent get baptised recive the holy Ghost ..GO and heal the sick preach the gospel baptise in water drive out demons -- make more deciples .we ARE the church we don't GO to church .

enjoy this interview

 

[Tenebrae]

There is no "NAR." The label came forth from an off-handed quote from a single charismatic Christian.

NAR very much exists

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Here are two quotes from wikipedia:

"The title New Apostolic Reformation is descriptive of a theological movement and is not an organization and therefore does not have formal membership."
..."informal and generally unadvertised far ranging governmental structure."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Apostolic_Reformation

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

If CP Wagner were to have a not completely different view, what could better be different? Or are his ideas flawed from the foundation?

I see the idea of gradual restoration of offices as good. Teachers up to the fifties, then evangelists, I forgot what happened in the 70s then prophets in the eighties and apostles in the nineties. Derek prince was one such forties teacher. And Billy Graham, a fifties sixties evangelist.

Dominionism sounds shrewd, we don't want to have no voice in parliament, while abortionists, drag queens, secularists and such like are telling us how to give up our faith while in office instead of us.

 

[catherine777]

Here are two quotes from wikipedia:

"The title New Apostolic Reformation is descriptive of a theological movement and is not an organization and therefore does not have formal membership."
..."informal and generally unadvertised far ranging governmental structure."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Apostolic_Reformation

But at same time for example my church Glory of Zion International recognizes webcasters of them also members of their church. I am individual webcaster.

 

[catherine777]

Looking at the New Apostolic Reformation, or NAR, when and how did it go wrong? Can you list faults and false teachers? Can it come good? What damage does it do? What good things remain in it?So I am asking the critics and adherents.

So far i have read from critic Holly Pivec blog about why ppl leave from the NAR http://www.spiritoferror.org/2013/03/why-people-leave-the-nar-movement/2737 .
I think it is generally good movement so far as i have seen it in my own country and by webcasting one NAR church and its local branches in Finland and Germany. Of course its leaders are humans like all of else and make mistakes like recently about one year ago apostle Chuck Pierce did by letting mormon Glenn Beck to testify in his church as Falma Rufus spiritual son and blessed this guy too....i have recently doubted bit of can it really from God but who knows.. Or some interesting teachings of end times by apostle Stephen Everett or Thamo Naidoo by denying the wedding of lamb but believing literal second coming of Christ....But personally i have thought where i have go as pastor centered church model is not enough for me anymore after being in nar apostolic prophetic movement about 10 years having my first prophets school in 2006 and joining NAR church in 2009 according to God advice.

 

[catherine777]

When we consider that the NARzie movement has probably undoubtedly become a cancer within the Body of Christ then people definitely need to be educated with this movement so that they can make their own judgment calls.

Wow why you think so negatively about NAR? Do you really think that there is nothing good in it?

 

[catherine777]

There is no formal organization known as "NAR," though people seem to speak as such. It seems misleading to me to propose there is, when, in fact, there is no formal organization with such a title. Especially since the acronym was taken from a single quote from a single person.

This term is used to refer ministries or churches who believe in fivefold ministry and present day apostles and prophets.

 

[AGTG]

After some serious reflection upon my participation with various charismatic movements related to those who profess "nar" doctrinal stands, I am sad to say that this movement is off the rails.

I am not willing to elaborate at this point, but allow me to apologize for not taking these affiliations and the doctrines behind these ministries seriously enough or with the measure of scrutiny and discernment required.

My recommendation to one and all is to steer very clear of these movements. They are bad!

 

[Alithis]

After some serious reflection upon my participation with various charismatic movements related to those who profess "nar" doctrinal stands, I am sad to say that this movement is off the rails.

I am not willing to elaborate at this point, but allow me to apologize for not taking these affiliations and the doctrines behind these ministries seriously enough or with the measure of scrutiny and discernment required.

My recommendation to one and all is to steer very clear of these movements. They are bad!

What is it we are looking at and saying.. That is off the rails...?
Im finding this thread very ambiguous

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

People make impressions of one of thousands of churches but can't see them all. This thread is ambiguous because NAR is not an official move of people.

 

[jiminpa]

What is it we are looking at and saying.. That is off the rails...?
Im finding this thread very ambiguous

And there it is! NAR is bad because people say so, not because anyone can show a scripture that they are violating or neglecting. All of the accusations are ambiguous and, so far, unsubstantiated, and some of them on a previous thread where just outright lies.

 

[geetrue]

I have the gift of discernment, but the gift does not come with instructions.
You have to live and learn ...
the Lord Jesus has allowed me to make many mistakes in order to teach me a lesson.

I was delivered from Todd Bentley and all of his followers in the summer of 2008 ...
You shall know them by their fruit, no more phony revivals for me: http://www.revivalhotline.com/

 

[Si_monfaith]

No Pentecostal who is worth his salt would dare minimise the importance of the five roles mentioned in Eph 4:11 but the way in which NARzie ideology has twisted Eph 4:11 to suit their agenda is nothing less than horrendous. It should be pointed out that NARzie ideology is not about restoring the Five roles but more with that of the apostle and prophet; in reality the prophet is miniminsed where the sole objective is to try and establish the apostle as being the kingpin. It should be pointed out that the NARzie celebrities are not trying to establish themselves as apostles but as Apostles-of-Christ where they see themselves as being on the same level of the Twelve and with Paul.

Kindly read my posts. Thx.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

I have heard Benny Hinn say Todd Bentley's revival is not legit, but Randy Clark tried to help it along.
C P Wagner invented the term New Apostolic Reformation. He is elderly. Long ago he helped John Wimber, who started Vineyard. John Arnott joined them and later saw revival in the nineties until now. Randy Clark sparked that revival with his visit. Randy may have also joined Vineyard before then. Later they formed another two groups, Catch the Fire and Global Awakening. The latter hosts the Voice of the Prophets and Voice of the Apostles conferences each year.

 

[Si_monfaith]

I have heard Benny Hinn say Todd Bentley's revival is not legit, but Randy Clark tried to help it along.
C P Wagner invented the term New Apostolic Reformation. He is elderly. Long ago he helped John Wimber, who started Vineyard. John Arnott joined them and later saw revival in the nineties until now. Randy Clark sparked that revival with his visit. Randy may have also joined Vineyard before then. Later they formed another two groups, Catch the Fire and Global Awakening. The latter hosts the Voice of the Prophets and Voice of the Apostles conferences each year.

Knowing Christ's love is revival.

 

[ToBeLoved]

People make impressions of one of thousands of churches but can't see them all. This thread is ambiguous because NAR is not an official move of people.

Is the ICA an official organization of people?

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Is the ICA an official organization of people?

ICA stands for?

 

[ToBeLoved]

I have heard Benny Hinn say Todd Bentley's revival is not legit, but Randy Clark tried to help it along.
C P Wagner invented the term New Apostolic Reformation. He is elderly. Long ago he helped John Wimber, who started Vineyard. John Arnott joined them and later saw revival in the nineties until now. Randy Clark sparked that revival with his visit. Randy may have also joined Vineyard before then. Later they formed another two groups, Catch the Fire and Global Awakening. The latter hosts the Voice of the Prophets and Voice of the Apostles conferences each year.

Was not CP Wagner one of the apostles who 'annointed' Todd Bentley publically into apostolic ministry? I believe that CP Wagner decree's his apostolic ministry to Todd Bentley. So I guess CP Wagner doesn't have much discernment, nor the power of the Holy Spirit that he said he passed on to Todd Bentley.

Leaders Commission Todd Bentley
1:56AM EDT 6/24/2008 Charisma
The special service was billed by leaders as one of the greatest moments in revival history

[06.24.08] Canadian revivalist Todd Bentley, leader of the “Lakeland Outpouring,” was commissioned as an evangelist last night in a special ceremony in Lakeland, Fla., that was broadcast into millions of homes by God TV.

California pastors Ché Ahn and Bill Johnson, along with Canadian pastor John Arnott, laid hands on the 32-year-old Bentley while Peter Wagner, leader of the International Coalition of Apostles, read a statement about the need for apostolic alignment. Other prominent leaders from the apostolic and prophetic movements stood on the platform to show their support for Bentley and to endorse the revival, which began in early April and is now in its 83rd day of continuous meetings.

The ceremony, held in a 10,000-seat tent, took place after some charismatic leaders raised questions about Bentley’s claims, methods and theology. They asked Wagner to oversee a dialogue, and he responded by organizing Monday evening’s event so that Bentley could have more accountability—or what Wagner calls “apostolic alignment.”

“I believe last night was truly historic and a true sign of unity,” Bentley told Charisma today. “Many streams converged and I know last night’s commissioning will truly help bring God’s outpouring to a much larger part of the body.”

Participating leaders at the ceremony included Wagner; Ché Ahn, pastor of Harvest Rock Church in Pasadena, Calif.; John Arnott of Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship in Canada; Bill Johnson, pastor of Bethel Church in Redding, Calif.; and Rick Joyner, founder of MorningStar Ministries in Charlotte, N.C.

Wagner said to Bentley on the platform: “This commissioning represents a powerful spiritual transaction taking place in the invisible world. With this in mind, I take the apostolic authority that God has given me and I decree to Todd Bentley, your power will increase, your authority will increase, your favor will increase, your influence will increase, your revelation will increase.


“I also decree that a new supernatural strength will flow through this ministry. A new life force will penetrate this move of God. Government will be established to set things in their proper order. God will pour out a higher level of discernment to distinguish truth from error. New relationships will surface to open the gates to the future.”


In a newsletter released earlier this week, Bentley said Wagner was the one who suggested having an official ceremony in which Bentley could be commissioned.

“I am no church historian, but I do not know of any other time in history, since the book of Acts, have so many different apostles and so many different prophets and movements and leaders [been represented],” Bentley said of the capacity crowd. “This is so much bigger than [anything else] ever before. The devil is shaking in his boots because the apostles are gathering and the prophets are gathering.” http://www.charismamag.com/site-archives/570-news/featured-news/3540-

 

[ToBeLoved]

ICA stands for?

See the post above "International Coalition for Apostles".