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Yup. New name, old heresies. I do not think the new name is a coincidence.A lot of these earlier NARzie types merely rehashed the earlier latter-rain heresies (from 1948), which even the worldwide AoG banned within their ranks and continue to do so even to this day.
If you had of asked only maybe six months back as to the meaning of an apostle I would have said much the same thing in that it means "someone who is sent", in fact most people would probably say much the same thing.I'm going to stir the pot a bit here by pointing that word we read as "apostle" in the NT is, in the Greek, something more along the lines of "One who is sent", with the implicaton being that they are sent by God. So, technically speaking, wouldn't that make anyone and everyone ever sent by God anywhere, for anything, an apostle?
Awesome research! I have to look at this closer after work tonight.If you had of asked only maybe six months back as to the meaning of an apostle I would have said much the same thing in that it means "someone who is sent", in fact most people would probably say much the same thing.
Late last year I had reason to look into the lexical and dictionary meaning of an apostle and it did not take me long to realise that our English word apostle (and/or Apostle) is a bit of an oversimplification of the Greek.
When we refer to the Twelve (incl. Paul), as Apostles they held a unique commission by Christ, whereas a congregational apostle is authorised to be an apostle by his local congregation, where their authority differs to that of those 13 individuals who were commissioned by Christ as the authority of the congregational apostle (1Cor 12:28; Eph 4:11) is restricted to whatever authority is granted to him by his congregation.
When I started to check through my various lexicons, the information was certainly detailed, where I felt as if I was on the outside looking into a discussion that seemingly everyone else had been talking about for decades but where I not only had no clue as to its content but where I was completely unaware of the subject.
The authority of the Apostles, being the Twelve and Paul, where Paul had even more authority than the Twelve, was granted to them by Christ as a special commissioning. So their authority rests on them as a commissioning and not so much as the were "being sent by Christ" but this is certainly an aspect of what it means to be a commissioned-Apostle-of-Christ.
The ordinary congregational apostle (1Cor 12:28; Eph 4:11) is tasked based where their role equates to the contemporary missionary who is directly involved with church planting, which means that not all missionaries necessarily hold an apostolic ministry.
When it comes to "being sent", this word is covered by the generic Greek word pempo (GK4421//SC3992). The word can be applied where say an important person may have sent a junior employee to go and pick up an important piece of jewellery for his wife. But when the word is used where the same person sent the junior employee as his representative, where he was to not only pick up the piece of jewellery but that he was to also negotiate a price and check for on the quality of the item, then the sending (pempo) is given additional weight by the authority that the sender gave the one who was being sent (pempo) on the task.
This techo-speak has some important bearing on how we view specific apostles or Apostles, where the first are only given limited authorisation by their local congregation (or Denomination) as church planters, whereas those who were commissioned by Christ as his direct represenatives (the Twelve), they have to be given a higher degree of respect but Paul was given even more authority directly by Christ.
So when the various NARzie celebrities try to pull the wool over the eyes of the Church by making the claim that the NT pattern justifyies their oddball stand that the NARzie apostles are supposed to be in various govermental positions over the church, then we can remind them that no one can claim to be a commissioned-Apostle-of-Christ as this role was unique to the Twelve and to Paul. Even on this point, we do not see the Apostle lording it over the local churches nor do we see them being in charge of any local congregation.
Lexical Aids to the New Testament, compiled and edited by Spiros Zodhiates, Th.D. AMG Publishers
GK690. Apostellō; from apo (608), from, and stello (5097), to send. To send forth, commission, send as an ambassador. Distinguished from pempo (4287), to send, in that apostello is to send forth on a certain mission, such as to preach (Mk 3:14; Lk 9:2), speak (Lk 1:19), bless (Ac 3:26; 7:35), rule, redeem, propitiate (1Jn 4:10), or save (1Jn 4:14). The expression that Jesus was sent by God(Jn 3:34) denotes the mission which He had to fulfill and the authority which backed Him. The importance of this mission is denoted by the fact that God sent His own Son. In the NT, to send forth from one place to another: to send upon some business or employment (Mt 2:16; 10:5; 20:2); to send away, dismiss (Mk 12:3,4); to send or thrust forth as a sickle among corn (Mk 4:29). Deriv.: apostolos (693), apostle, envoy; apostole (692), dispatching or sending forth.
GK692. Apostole; from apostello (690), to send forth. Dispatching, sending forth; also that which is sent, that is, a present. In the NT, apostleship, apostolic office or ministry, apostolic commission. Apostleship is an abstract noun that stresses the work and responsibility of an apostle; it is the apostolic work, the duties of the apostolic ministry, not merely apostolic status (Ac 1:25; Ro 1:5; ICo 9:2; Gal 2:8). It is evident from the NT that an apostolic commission could be given only by revelation from Christ Himself. To receive an apostolic commission in any other way than by a divine revelation—whether by the authority of a religious body or of an individual—is illegitimate and an act of self-will.
GK693. Apostolos; from apostello (690), to send forth. Apostle, emissary, delegate, envoy, ambassador, commissioned agent, authorized representative, missionary. Despite this word’s relatively meager history, it is evident in its uses that it carried the underlying notions of authorization and commission, and was used to signify a dispatched fleet, a naval commander, a group of colonists, and was also used of documents such as a passport or bill of lading. In the NT used: (1) Of anyone sent to represent another, a proxy, messenger, delegate, a commissioned agent bearing full authority Jn 13:16; 2Co 8:23; Php 2:25). (2) Of the closed college of the Twelve, Judas Iscariot notwithstanding (Mt 10:2; Mk 6:30; Lk 6:13; 9:10; 11:49; 17:5; 22:14; 24:10; Ac 1:2,26; 2:37,42,43; 4:33,35-37; 5:2,12,18,29,40; 6:6; 8:1,14,18; 9:27; 11:1; 15:2,4,6,22,23;16:4; Ro 1:1; 11:13; ICo 4:9; 12:28; 15:7; 2Co 1:1; Gal 1:1; Eph 1:1; 2:20; 3:5; 4:11; Col 1:1; 1Ti 1:1; 2:7; 2Ti 1:1; 1Pe 1:1; Rev 18:20; 21:14). Five characteristics of the Apostles: (a) Foundational to church and special place in God’s kingdom (Mt 19:28; Eph 2:19-22; 1Co 9:2, as church planters); (b) eyewitnesses of Christ (Ac 1:22; 4:33; 1Co 9:1; 15:8); (c) directly appointed and authorized by Christ (Mt 10:1,2; Ac 9:6,15; Gal 1:1); (d) authenticated by signs (Ac 2:43; 5:12; 2Co 12:12; Heb 2:3,4); (e) bore unique authority (Ac 2:42; 4:33; 15:1-23; Ro 11:13; 2Co 13:3; Gal 2:8; Eph 3:5; 2Pe 3:2; Jude 17). (3) Of coadjutors of the apostles, apostolic delegates, “apostolical” persons (not persons association with the apostolate were reckoned among them (Ac 14:4,14; Ro 16:7, somewhat ambiguous; 1Co 9:1-6; 15:5; Gal 1:19; 1Th 2:6). (4) False apostles (2Co 11:13; Re 2:2). (5) Of Christ (Heb 3:1).
GK lexical numbers are based on the NIV whereas SC are the older Strong’s numbers.
This material also changes my earlier remarks in post #18, where my remarks where not carefully thought through.
Thankyou. Even though my post touches on the subject, as much of the terminology may be a bit unfamiliar for most and that my own presentation is undoudtedly lacking, I would suggest that when given the opportunity, that the various words that our English translations translate into apostles and with those are who are being sent on a task are maybe best viewed through some good Greek lexicons and dictionaries - which I have provided below.Awesome research! I have to look at this closer after work tonight.
Undoubtedly we have all gone through life where we've presumed that certain words, be they Greek or even words from within our own native language mean something, when after who knows how many years, something crops up where we suddenly begin to understand that it may not be the case. As I mentioned in an earlier post, with the word apostle I presumed that it mean something along the populust understanding of someone who was sent, where instead the Greek word pempo is used within the Scriptures in this way.I thought the word apostle was just for those that met and knew Jesus.
Re. tattoos, they are certainly a proven conversation-starter in witness; a lot of Christians find faith based ones to be so. Like you say, the belief may be that they can open doors to talk to others who might not otherwise be reached.My personal opinion, which may be way off is that Bentley was chosen because he would reach a certain audience that maybe the others could not reach. I don't know that for a fact, but that is what I think
You are certainly right with this; all we have to do is to look at the numerous decadent music and film celebrities who wear the cross as a mark of scorn and with how the film industry will usually have the villain wearing a cross. If nothing else, when someone defaces their body with a cross or any form of tattoos, which not only reveals their poor judgment to us all for maybe decades, we can sadly presume that such individuals are usually in need of the Gospel - or that they should at least be encouraged to find Believers of good character who can guide them into walking in the Spirit.Re. tattoos, they are certainly a proven conversation-starter in witness; a lot of Christians find faith based ones to be so. Like you say, the belief may be that they can open doors to talk to others who might not otherwise be reached.
If the content is decadent, then I would agree that they are definable as a vice, possibly.You are certainly right with this; all we have to do is to look at the numerous decadent music and film celebrities who wear the cross as a mark of scorn and with how the film industry will usually have the villain wearing a cross. If nothing else, when someone defaces their body with a cross or any form of tattoos, which not only reveals their poor judgment to us all for maybe decades, we can sadly presume that such individuals are usually in need of the Gospel - or that they should at least be encouraged to find Believers of good character who can guide them into walking in the Spirit.
Bentley is certainly a great example of how tattoos can be a declaration of self-shame and abuse. When I was first told to look at him, I remember thinking that he must have had a terrible life as a child and a teenager, which was apparently true; but when I discovered that his tattoos were obtained while he was supposed to be a Christian ministry then I was not surprised to quickly discover that there was very little of any value or even of goodness within him.
So if any teenager feels that they are being placed under pressure to either get a tattoo, take drugs, go binge drinking, then they should undoubtedly fall before the Lord to seek his help to resist such worldly and humanist onslaughts. As my children are now Christian adults, I can be thankful that they were wise enough to resist any encouragement by their non-Christian friends to get a tattoo, where I hope that the leaders of our youth are being ever vigilant to strengthen our children so that they do not succumb to these vices.
Undoubtedly if someone were to have 666 tattooed on their forehead that they could probably use this as a point of conversation as well, where even "Stupid is as stupid does" would undoubtedly start a few conversations.If the content is decadent, then I would agree that they are definable as a vice, possibly.
But for example, my wife and I talked to a young lady with the whole of John 3.16 tattooed on her wrist area; it was her favorite Bible verse and mine also; and I'm sure that other conversations have also been prompted by her willingness to have it done.
So I didn't say to her: "You are driven by vice!" Instead, we had a mutually appreciative conversation about John 3.16.
I think that what you are talking about in post #110 is a straw man, compared with what I was talking about in post #109.Undoubtedly if someone were to have 666 tattooed on their forehead that they could probably use this as a point of conversation as well, where even "Stupid does what stupid is" would undoubtedly start a few conversations as well.
I should say that I can understand the plight of those who had severly defaced their bodies as teenagers due to peer pressure of some less than reputable so called friends; if these marks are open to all to see then undoubtedly they will pay the price for their foolishness for many years to come. Hopefully the many commercial services that have arisen in recent years to help people to remove their marks of self abasement and shame will become more affordable to those who are not so well off.
To keep in line with this thread, the prominent NARzie Todd Bentley would undoubtedly be the pinup boy for those who are encouraging our impressionable youth to do down this very dark pathway - a pathway that most will soon live to regret.
You probably do not want to know what I really think.I think that what you are talking about in post #110 is a straw man, compared with what I was talking about in post #109.
Also, I would put it to you, than many Christians would even regard it as more or less necessary to avail themselves of the services of a tattoo artist if their current interests have superseded past ones; for example, a women with the name of an ex-bf (e.g., "Bill") tattooed on her skin, might well choose to ask a good tattoo artist to change it to something such as "Bible" instead. Most Christians would probably agree that this is a fine example of circumstances when a tattoo artist can be put to good use by a Christian.You probably do not want to know what I really think.
Well, at least you have now stated that tattoos can be an absolutely stupid choice, where at times I wonder if these women are doing us all a favour by letting us know in advance that we are best to keep away from them - harsh, but sadly very true. I often wonder as to the emotional wherewithal of those women are so dull of mind that they cannot see the foolishness of having someone's name tattood on their body.Also, I would put it to you, than many Christians would even regard it as more or less necessary to avail themselves of the services of a tattoo artist if their current interests have superseded past ones; for example, a women with the name of an ex-bf (e.g., "Bill") tattooed on her skin, might well choose to ask a good tattoo artist to change it to something such as "Bible" instead. Most Christians would probably agree that this is a fine example of circumstances when a tattoo artist can be put to good use by a Christian.
Well, at least you have now stated that tattoos can be an absolutely stupid choice, where at times I wonder if these women are doing us all a favour by letting us know in advance that we are best to keep away from them - harsh, but sadly very true. I often wonder as to the emotional wherewithal of those women are so dull of mind that they cannot see the foolishness of having someone's name tattood on their body.
forums dot thewelltrainedmind dot comQueenCat said:Around here (Bible Belt), it is common, especially among evangelical Christians, for the girls under about 40 to have religious tattoos. More do than don't, especially when you get to the under 30 crowd. I hardly know any female at church that is under 30 that does not have a tattoo.
Mmmm . . . it's sad to see a region that has had such a fine name going down this decadent pathway; according to what you have told me, it seems that the so called Bible Belt could be better referred to as being a Bible Wasteland. Of course I can only wonder about who those people actually are!FYI, it is actually very widespread among women in the Bible Belt:
forums dot thewelltrainedmind dot com
There are all sorts of views and preferences around, but getting tattooed - one hopes, tastefully - is the preferred choice for huge numbers of people, including professing Christians in churches in the Bible Belt.
How do you mean, who 'these people' are?Mmmm . . . it's sad to see a region that has had such a fine name going down this decadent pathway; according to what you have told me, it seems that the so called Bible Belt could be better referred to as being a Bible Wasteland. Of course I can only wonder about who those people actually are!
I would like to think that the "churches" that you are referring to are comprised of those who have maybe come out of criminal bike gangs and the like, but sadly, I am all too aware that there are many elements of the Western church that are little better off than the world around them. In spite of the horrid inroads that humanism and other forms of decadent human behaviour have had on the church in our various Bible Belts, I have no doubt that there are still many who have chosen to run a good walk where their trust is in the Spirit.How do you mean, who 'these people' are?
Of course I do! As the world has turned the Cross into a symbol of scorn, where it has become so bad in recent years, we can now presume that the villian in a film will be the one who is wearing a cross before he even speaks a word.Sounds like you automatically regard a Bible verse or Christian fish <>< tattoo, etc. as some sort of stigma.
Hmm...and maybe other fathers would actually encourage respect for those who have had the courage to identify with the moral content of a Bible verse. Maybe like the young lady with John 3.16 on her wrist area that my wife and I talked to.Of course I do! As the world has turned the Cross into a symbol of scorn, where it has become so bad in recent years, we can now presume that the villian in a film will be the one who is wearing a cross before he even speaks a word.
As I have said previously with our discussions regarding bodily defacement, there are many Fathers (both Christian and non-Christian) who will caution their sons from getting involved with women who have tattoos and particularly with those women who are oddly proud of what they have done.
Well, I hope that such men are never put in leadership positions within our churches. If nothing else, when a young person decides to get a tattoo, and particularly with one that is glaring, then it usually reflects poor parenting where the child has been placed at a servere disadvantage from the start.Hmm...and maybe other fathers would actually encourage respect for those who have had the courage to identify with the moral content of a Bible verse. Maybe like the young lady with John 3.16 on her wrist area that my wife and I talked to.
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