Naive Question?

[DLT]

This might sound silly, but here goes anyway. If we are forgiven our sins through Christ, why and how are we to be judged? I am under the impression that sins are forgiven upon the acceptance of Christ.

Thanks,
DLT

 

[cyberwing]

Jesus will judge our actions and attitudes and how well we kept His Word as His servants at the marriage supper of The Lamb. The judgement for Christians is more of a review of our Christian walk and award for our faithfulness as servants which we will all realize we have nothing without Him and we will cast our crowns at His feet.

Remember there is another judgement mentioned for all those not belonging to Jesus. This is where the fallen angels will be judged, this is the White Throne Judgment (or the Final Judgment) and the Judgment of Bride and this event are two distinctly different events as described in Revelation.

I know that's a quick answer but hope it helps. You can research all of this easily but first I would read through Revelation with a good teacher. {{{HUG}}}
~Cyberwing

 

[DLT]

Jesus will judge our actions and attitudes and how well we kept His Word as His servants at the marriage supper of The Lamb. The judgement for Christians is more of a review of our Christian walk and award for our faithfulness as servants which we will all realize we have nothing without Him and we will cast our crowns at His feet.

Remember there is another judgement mentioned for all those not belonging to Jesus. This is where the fallen angels will be judged, this is the White Throne Judgment (or the Final Judgment) and the Judgment of Bride and this event are two distinctly different events as described in Revelation.

I know that's a quick answer but hope it helps. You can research all of this easily but first I would read through Revelation with a good teacher. {{{HUG}}}
~Cyberwing

Dear Cyberwing,
Thanks for the clarification. I thought, though, that once we accepted God's gift through Christ, it is as if we had never sinned at all. As an example, if a murderer or serial rapist accepted Christ, would all prior sins be forgiven. Also, if he accepted Christ and then reverted to the same behavior, would his salvation be in jeopardy?

Also, when we accept Christ, does God see us in the same light as he does Jesus? I've been doing a lot of study, and these issues keep popping up.

Regards,
DLT

 

[kel32]

"As an example, if a murderer or serial rapist accepted Christ, would all prior sins be forgiven. Also, if he accepted Christ and then reverted to the same behavior, would his salvation be in jeopardy?"

If he accepted Christ, yes, all his prior sins would be forgiven. But, if then he reverted back to the same behavior, well, he never truly did accept Christ in the first place. Once you truly accept Christ you follow Him. Meaning you strive to be like Him. Accepting Him is more than just saying "I believe in you" It's living through the will of God, being obedient, and doing what He desires, at all times. So, if he goes back to his old murderous ways, he never did accept Christ. ~peace~

 

[Radagast]

The Bible uses the word justification for the fact that, when God judges us, He treats us as if we are not guilty.

See Romans 5:

9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! 10 For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11 Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

Actually, read all of Romans...

-- Radagast

 

[ShetlandRose]

If a born-again Christian sins, it will not cost them their salvation. That is not a license to sin of course. We are to confess our sins to God and He is "faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." Unconfessed sins or rebellion to God will take away the joy of our salvation however. The Holy Spirit inside a Christian draws them back to repentence every time they sin and we are secure in the hand of God. Unless you are saved, you are not a Christian, no matter what you call yourself or what church you may attend. Our outward actions are expressions of what is in our hearts.

ShetlandRose

 

[cyberwing]

Dear Cyberwing,
Thanks for the clarification. I thought, though, that once we accepted God's gift through Christ, it is as if we had never sinned at all. As an example, if a murderer or serial rapist accepted Christ, would all prior sins be forgiven. Also, if he accepted Christ and then reverted to the same behavior, would his salvation be in jeopardy?

Good question! Yes, our PAST sins are forgiven we start with a clean slate BUT we, even when we do our best to follow Jesus' example fail because of our sinful, flesh natures. This is why we are in a continual process of repenting, seeking and changing as we learn more of Him and His ways. We are NOT a finished product when we accept Jesus as Lord and Savior! We are now ready for the pug mill and have to have a lot of garbage removed and things added to us so the creator can begin to form us anew. (We become the clay in The Potter's hands.) Kel wrote it so well, if the murderer returns to his lifestyle he NEVER truly accepted Christ Jesus!! He wouldn't ever WANT to pursue that lifestyle again!! Jesus will become too important to you, just as ShetlandRose has said so nicely.
You can 'say' things that your heart and soul are NOT in alignment with, look at all the failed marriages!!! People of this world are VERY bad about committing with their lips but that is all it is, LIP SERVICE. They never committed in their hearts! Jesus said this is why we should NEVER judge for we are not able to look upon the heart as He can. Someone can talk a good game but when it comes down to it....... I have seen this far too many times and it breaks my heart. Those that SAY they love Jesus then go about hurting others using HIS HOLY NAME to do it!!! (Personally, I think THIS is the meaning of taking The Lord's name in VAIN!)

How do I tell the difference, you may ask? Well Jesus told us we would know them by their fruits. So look at what kind of 'fruit' they have, (meaning Fruit of the Spirit). Do they walk in love, joy, peace, self-control, gentleness, kindness...do they LIVE what they TALK? That is how you must evaluate another Brother or Sister in Christ.

Also, when we accept Christ, does God see us in the same light as he does Jesus? I've been doing a lot of study, and these issues keep popping up.

Regards,
DLT

Precious one, this too is a good question. NO, I do not believe God sees us like Jesus! JESUS is His Son and part of Him! We have not gotten to that point yet that we are fully a part of Jesus or we would be with Him like Enoch! I personally would describe it as; HE sees us THROUGH Jesus. Jesus becomes our intercessor, our lawyer if you will. Jesus pleads our case to The Father when the devil comes accusing us of our sins. Don't forget we still sin while we have flesh, this is why we need to take every opportunity to repent of our sins, (repent for our cities, our states, our nations). We are then placing the sins under Jesus jurisdiction and HE covers it with His sacrificed blood! So even though my righteousness is as filthy rags, now by repenting and asking forgiveness for what I have done, Jesus forgives me and covers my faults with His own Righteousness, not mine! So as we follow after Him, we no longer have to worry about being perfect!!! We just keeping trying and doing what Jesus tells us and little by little HE changes us and helps us grow. This walk is about intimate relationship. Those that don't understand that, I'm sorry. It IS about getting really intimate with Jesus, getting to know Him on a very PERSONAL level. Believe me, it's the most awesome journey you will ever take. NOTHING compares to it, absolutely NOTHING!
Keep delving into His Word DLT! You are really doing some maturing in your walk with Him when you honestly pursue HIM. Keep up the good work! {{{HUGS}}}
~Cyberwing

My favorite saying is "Christians aren't perfect....just forgiven!" Whew, what a relief to know I don't have to be perfect!!!

 

[DLT]

Thanks to all who responded to my various questions. I see now that while we may still be imperfect "post-salvation", God nevertheless gives us new and powerful weapons with which to combat our sinful natures. I guess it all comes down to the recognition of our continuing sinfulness, and our earnest repentance of those sins.

Sometimes it's tough being a "baby-Christian"!

DLT

 

[cyberwing]

Thanks to all who responded to my various questions. I see now that while we may still be imperfect "post-salvation", God nevertheless gives us new and powerful weapons with which to combat our sinful natures. I guess it all comes down to the recognition of our continuing sinfulness, and our earnest repentance of those sins.

Sometimes it's tough being a "baby-Christian"!

DLT

Yes, this is not an easy walk but it is one incredible journey! When things get tough DLT, go to your Brothers and Sisters in Christ who you have evaluated their 'fruit' and you trust. Seek their input and encouragement we do have to lean on one another, ALL of us, even the more mature of us. Then any advice you get, compare it to The Word of God and what lines up with His Word follow.

Two things to remember DLT:
1) NEVER put your eyes on man. Admire a man, minister, preacher, teacher, etc. Remember they TOO are men and all mankind falls short of the Glory of God!!! Keep your eyes on JESUS and keep JESUS on the throne, never put ANY man or woman there!!! Then you will not be disappointed for JESUS will NEVER let you down!
2) Keep a 'spiritual trash can'. You will hear various people spout some crazy ideas. If it doesn't fit with The Word, put it in your spiritual trash can. Then remember we are told never to 'argue our faith' but to live it! We are not to provoke arguments but provoke people to thought by the Fruits of The Spirit being evident in our lives. We are no longer OF this world. We may live in this world but it is no longer our home, we are passing through!
My Grandmother had a wonderful saying,
"Discussion is the exchange of intelligence,
Arguement is the exchange of ignorance." How true!

If you should desire someone to pray with you or need a shoulder, I am only a pm away. {{{Cyber hugs}}}
~Cyberwing

 

[DLT]

Yes, this is not an easy walk but it is one incredible journey! When things get tough DLT, go to your Brothers and Sisters in Christ who you have evaluated their 'fruit' and you trust. Seek their input and encouragement we do have to lean on one another, ALL of us, even the more mature of us. Then any advice you get, compare it to The Word of God and what lines up with His Word follow.

Two things to remember DLT:
1) NEVER put your eyes on man. Admire a man, minister, preacher, teacher, etc. Remember they TOO are men and all mankind falls short of the Glory of God!!! Keep your eyes on JESUS and keep JESUS on the throne, never put ANY man or woman there!!! Then you will not be disappointed for JESUS will NEVER let you down!
2) Keep a 'spiritual trash can'. You will hear various people spout some crazy ideas. If it doesn't fit with The Word, put it in your spiritual trash can. Then remember we are told never to 'argue our faith' but to live it! We are not to provoke arguments but provoke people to thought by the Fruits of The Spirit being evident in our lives. We are no longer OF this world. We may live in this world but it is no longer our home, we are passing through!
My Grandmother had a wonderful saying,
"Discussion is the exchange of intelligence,
Arguement is the exchange of ignorance." How true!

If you should desire someone to pray with you or need a shoulder, I am only a pm away. {{{Cyber hugs}}}
~Cyberwing

Dear Cyberwing,
Thanks for the reply and for the continued encouragement. My journey with Christ is sometimes rocky, but I feel I'm on the right path. I think I tend to approach things from an intellectual point of view. That is to say "could these things really have happened?". I seem to need proof for everything. That's why I read "Mere Christianity", as well as "The Case for Faith" by Lee Strobel, and other books. Lately, though, I seem to have an almost physical hunger for the Word of God, and have really thrown myself into the Bible, searching for answers to my questions, questions which seem to be half-formed in my mind.

I first explored Christianity many years ago, and felt as though I was making real progress. However, as is so often the case, I fell away and became a man of the world. Recent events, though, have persuaded me that it's time to stop fooling around and get right with God, to seek the blessing and salvation of Christ. It occurs to me that this level of knowledge is an ongoing process, one that is never complete, at least on this plane of existence.

Thanks for your prayers, and I ask for more in the future!

DLT

 

[cyberwing]

Dear Cyberwing,
Thanks for the reply and for the continued encouragement. My journey with Christ is sometimes rocky, but I feel I'm on the right path. I think I tend to approach things from an intellectual point of view. That is to say "could these things really have happened?". I seem to need proof for everything. That's why I read "Mere Christianity", as well as "The Case for Faith" by Lee Strobel, and other books. Lately, though, I seem to have an almost physical hunger for the Word of God, and have really thrown myself into the Bible, searching for answers to my questions, questions which seem to be half-formed in my mind.

I first explored Christianity many years ago, and felt as though I was making real progress. However, as is so often the case, I fell away and became a man of the world. Recent events, though, have persuaded me that it's time to stop fooling around and get right with God, to seek the blessing and salvation of Christ. It occurs to me that this level of knowledge is an ongoing process, one that is never complete, at least on this plane of existence.

Thanks for your prayers, and I ask for more in the future!

DLT

DLT!!! Very good! There is NOTHING wrong with approaching God on an intellectual level, this is good and God challenges us to do this in the Old Testament! HE gave us a brain and HE wants us to use it, HE never planned for mankind to stop using the intellect He gave us, instead HE wants us to use MORE of what HE gave us!
Don't forget to let Him into your heart as well. I think you are asking some very astute questions and making some very good observations. I am perhaps a 'typical woman' and get quite emotional about my Lord. I used to feel bad about my tendency to weep in His presence. I have found freedom though because HE made me and understands my passion for Him! HE even understands my tears!
May Our Lord Bless and Keep you always in His loving care!
~Cyberwing

 

[DLT]

DLT!!! Very good! There is NOTHING wrong with approaching God on an intellectual level, this is good and God challenges us to do this in the Old Testament! HE gave us a brain and HE wants us to use it, HE never planned for mankind to stop using the intellect He gave us, instead HE wants us to use MORE of what HE gave us!
Don't forget to let Him into your heart as well. I think you are asking some very astute questions and making some very good observations. I am perhaps a 'typical woman' and get quite emotional about my Lord. I used to feel bad about my tendency to weep in His presence. I have found freedom though because HE made me and understands my passion for Him! HE even understands my tears!
May Our Lord Bless and Keep you always in His loving care!
~Cyberwing

Dear Cyberwing,

I still haven't managed to get on the emotional level. I just know that He is there, through thick and thin. Also, I think God chooses to reveal Himself in the way that is most suitable for each and every individual. In other words, he comes down to our level, which is essentially what Christ did when he appeared in human form.

From what I've seen, read, and experienced in life, Christianity seems to offer the only real, valid solution to the problems and tribulations of this fallen world. For now, I'm continuing to grow in the Word, and am truly amazed at the insights to be gained through study of the Bible. One thing that really hit me yesterday, for some reason, was the fact that Christ extensively makes reference to the Old Testament in His teachings. I'm starting to grasp the relation of the OT to the NT, which, while obvious to others, is a revelation to me.

DLT

 

[DLT]

"As an example, if a murderer or serial rapist accepted Christ, would all prior sins be forgiven. Also, if he accepted Christ and then reverted to the same behavior, would his salvation be in jeopardy?"

If he accepted Christ, yes, all his prior sins would be forgiven. But, if then he reverted back to the same behavior, well, he never truly did accept Christ in the first place. Once you truly accept Christ you follow Him. Meaning you strive to be like Him. Accepting Him is more than just saying "I believe in you" It's living through the will of God, being obedient, and doing what He desires, at all times. So, if he goes back to his old murderous ways, he never did accept Christ. ~peace~

Thanks for the insight. I'm still wondering, though, about the issue of salvation and ongoing sin. As an example, suppose one were a thief, who accepts Christ and vows to stop stealing. Subsequently, the thief stumbles (as humans are prone to do), and begins stealing again. Will repentance put him back in relationship with Christ. Does it depend on the sincerity of the repentance? I suspect that Christ knows the true intent of the heart, and dispenses His grace accordingly. Also, I am under the impression that individuals will still be judged even though they are saved?

I really appreciate the patience and understanding of those on this board. It seems as though, with me, at least, one question leads to a thousand others!

DLT

 

[sawdust]

Thanks for the insight. I'm still wondering, though, about the issue of salvation and ongoing sin. As an example, suppose one were a thief, who accepts Christ and vows to stop stealing. Subsequently, the thief stumbles (as humans are prone to do), and begins stealing again. Will repentance put him back in relationship with Christ. Does it depend on the sincerity of the repentance? I suspect that Christ knows the true intent of the heart, and dispenses His grace accordingly. Also, I am under the impression that individuals will still be judged even though they are saved?

I really appreciate the patience and understanding of those on this board. It seems as though, with me, at least, one question leads to a thousand others!

DLT

It might help if you understand at the start that sin doesn't make us "bad" people, it makes us "lost" people. This is why people who live "good" lives or newborn infants still need Jesus. We are lost, separated from God. The judgemnt (consequences) is death. We know that is true because Jesus died on the Cross. That was God's judgement. That judgemnet will never change, it stands for all eternity. What happens when we accept Jesus is that:
1. We acknowledge the judgement as true.
2. We accept the substitution of Christ in our place.
3. We trust God's Word that that substitution is sufficient penalty on our behalf. (repentance)
Having done that we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit who indwells us. Now we are no longer separated from God. The sin nature stills resides in us (along with God's nature) but because God's nature (His Spirit) is more powerful we no longer need fear death (separation from God). But there continues a struggle between the two natures while we live here on earth. This is why we are supposed to count ourselves dead to sin (don't see yourself as lost)because Christ is the One who lives our life. The glorious life, ie the you and me that we will behold of each other in heaven, is hid in Christ.
There is nothing that can separate us from God. Let me repeat that. There is nothing that can separate us from God.
However...
I'm going to put that in part two because I have to run now.

 

[cyberwing]

DLT,
Just wanted to let you know about a book that is truly setting me free. "Waking the Dead" by John Eldredge is a very good look at what we have been missing as Christians for a long time! A very recurrent theme throughout the Bible is 'God is after our hearts!' The heart does not equate emotions, the depths of your heart holds much more. Only recently have we reduced the heart to just 'our emotions'. The Modern Lie Mind=reason Heart=emotions The heart is MUCH more than just emotions. Get this book and read it and you may find it sets you free as well! Free to live a life FULLY ALIVE to glorify our God!!! (John 10:10) The thief comes to kill, steal and destroy, I come that you may have life and that more abundantly! So Jesus has told us right here, we have an enemy that is after our heart (our deepest being). HE tells us some of the enemies plans but then he continues by telling us HE comes to set our hearts free. (Isaiah 61:1) We are to live abundantly!!! Live life to the fullest! Enjoy our life! I know, this will upset many folks theology but it is Truth, read your Bible.
God gave us our minds to gather information, but it is the deep recesses of the heart where understanding takes place. God wants a heart to heart relationship with us!!! Intimate relationship with HIM was what we were created for (Genesis 1)! We were created in His image. Remember, David was a man after God's own heart! Wow! So David lived in intimate relationship with God! Yes, he wrestled with his sin nature but God still refers to David as a man after His Own HEART!!
The Bible says He will write His Word on our hearts. The depths of our beings. Deep in the very heart of us! God also says that out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh!
Be blessed DLT and may your heart be set free! {{{hugs}}}
~Cyberwing

 

[sawdust]

DLT,
Live life to the fullest! Enjoy our life! I know, this will upset many folks theology but it is Truth, read your Bible.
~Cyberwing

We can only hope so Cyberwing, we can only hope!

 

[sawdust]

This is my third attempt on this computer to write my part two to your questions DLT. I have lost 2 pages of writing and now I don't have time to try again. Will you be patient with me and wait till Monday when I can get on my computer at work? I don't know why this happens on this one. I can hit the same key 10 times then on the 11th my post will disappear. grrrr!

 

[sawdust]

Hi DLT,
Finally got here to do part 2.

Going by your earlier questions I'm assuming it bothers you that once a person confesses Christ and yet sin's afterwards that you think:
a. they may not be really saved.
b. they may lose their salvation.
c. they will be saved regardless of what sin they commit.

People follow Jesus for all sorts of reasons. You only need look in the New Testament to see how the crowds flocked around Him. Some of those were only there for what they could get. (healing most likely) Same goes for those in Churches today. They like the songs, fellowship, etc. but they have never really repented and believed. (remember what I said before about acknowledge, accept and trust = repentance) Those same people may be "sorry" for certain things they have done, but remorse doesn't equal repentance. They therefore do not have the Holy Spirit within and cannot overcome their sin nature. Hence they continue to sin.

There are those who are truly repentant but sometime later reject Jesus and lose faith. These are the ones who get to a point where they find it too hard to keep on "the narrow way" and turn back. (John 6:68) Sometimes it can happen because of a single event and sometimes it can happen slowly. The latter sort begin to neglect the Lord until one day they wake up and think "where am I?". They then decide to forsake the Lord. (It may not be quite so concious as that)

The "c" group is maybe a little harder to understand but we have ample evidence in scripture to know that there were those who took God's Grace as a licence. The Corinthian Letters alone are good examples. At least it shows us some things don't change as we see the same behaviour today.
It seems to begin essentially with placing something else before the Lord in my opinion. That "something else" (and it could be anything and not even necessarily a bad thing eg our family) keeps getting bigger and bigger in our lives until we lose sight of Jesus and His ways are forgotten.

There are many things that are important but nothing compares to the importance of Jesus as Lord and Saviour in our lives and our dependence upon Him and Him alone. Keep asking the questions but never forget, ultimately it is the person of Jesus Christ that saves so make your rest in Him.

take care

 

[DLT]

 

[DLT]

Hi DLT,
Finally got here to do part 2.

Going by your earlier questions I'm assuming it bothers you that once a person confesses Christ and yet sin's afterwards that you think:
a. they may not be really saved.
b. they may lose their salvation.
c. they will be saved regardless of what sin they commit.

People follow Jesus for all sorts of reasons. You only need look in the New Testament to see how the crowds flocked around Him. Some of those were only there for what they could get. (healing most likely) Same goes for those in Churches today. They like the songs, fellowship, etc. but they have never really repented and believed. (remember what I said before about acknowledge, accept and trust = repentance) Those same people may be "sorry" for certain things they have done, but remorse doesn't equal repentance. They therefore do not have the Holy Spirit within and cannot overcome their sin nature. Hence they continue to sin.

There are those who are truly repentant but sometime later reject Jesus and lose faith. These are the ones who get to a point where they find it too hard to keep on "the narrow way" and turn back. (John 6:68) Sometimes it can happen because of a single event and sometimes it can happen slowly. The latter sort begin to neglect the Lord until one day they wake up and think "where am I?". They then decide to forsake the Lord. (It may not be quite so concious as that)

The "c" group is maybe a little harder to understand but we have ample evidence in scripture to know that there were those who took God's Grace as a licence. The Corinthian Letters alone are good examples. At least it shows us some things don't change as we see the same behaviour today.
It seems to begin essentially with placing something else before the Lord in my opinion. That "something else" (and it could be anything and not even necessarily a bad thing eg our family) keeps getting bigger and bigger in our lives until we lose sight of Jesus and His ways are forgotten.

There are many things that are important but nothing compares to the importance of Jesus as Lord and Saviour in our lives and our dependence upon Him and Him alone. Keep asking the questions but never forget, ultimately it is the person of Jesus Christ that saves so make your rest in Him.

take care

I'm sorry that it took me so long to reply to the wonderful responses to my questions, but I've been off the board for awhile. To sawdust and Cyberwing: Your replies have given me much insight into the subject of "real redemption", and I'm very appreciative.

Yesterday, my wife and I were baptized, finally taking the step which puts us on God's side. I ask for your prayers as I continue my journey in Christ.
DLT
PS: I'm definitely going to look for the recommended book!