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Naive question about dating

shania

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I have a pretty simple question about dating, and I'd really like to hear various opinions on it.

Basically I have never been in a dating relationship for more than six months. (95% of the time I broke it off, due to different reasons).

I've come to realize that it's partly because I am an adventurous, independent woman who thrives on personal growth by struggling and doing things many people would walk away from.

No one really "enjoys " struggles or challenges, but I learn from everything life puts in my path and there's nothing better than a good struggle or challenge to make you a stronger and better person.

In other words, the whole man in shining armour to rescue me and give me everything I want and need (essentially not being in a situuation where I am encouraged to be strong and the best that I can be) just doesn't cut it for me.

I understand why many women like this, but this traditional model of men and women relationships just doesn't cut it for me -- unfortunately I am a minority in this type of thinking if I ever want to get married to a Christian man.

I am completely prepared to stay single, because I personally don't like a lot of what I see out there in relationships in terms of some of the roles many Christian women and men play when they are a couple, BUT only because I can't see myself being like that. It's great if most of the world is like that and they are happy with it.

Anyhow, it seems like I just give up on the idea of ever getting married. Any thoughts on this?
 
I

InTheFlame

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YAY!!!! Hallelujah lord!!! :)

Nice to meet you, Shania. It's possible to get married and be relatively independent*, adventurous etc.

(* Every marriage needs to be interdependent, of course, and 'independence' needs to be mixed with love and teamwork)

I'm very similar to you, by what I understand of what you've written. The whole maiden in distress and knight in shining armour thing sickens me... it's very unhealthy and leads to big problems in relationships, eventually.

If you're doing things that are difficult, that's one thing... if you're doing things that are physically dangerous or expensive, I can see how that would be a problem in a relationship. But otherwise... well I'm married, I have a fairly modern take on male-female relationships (more modern than many secular women I know, imo), and my husband has a very similar opinion to mine of what a marriage should be like. So we get along very well, try to give each other room for our personal pursuits and growth times, and try to keep each other updated on where we are in life, esp. spiritually. I can learn from his spiritual growth, and vice versa. I don't think we've gotten it all right yet by any means, but we're learning to combine partnership and one-ness with individual interests.

You know, the thing I like most about my husband is that he's willing to take almost anyone's criticism, think about whether it's true and whether it needs fixing, seek others' opinions where necessary, and then do the work with God's help to fix it. I really like that drive for spiritual growth.
 
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Sascha Fitzpatrick

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Shania,

I think you're on the right track with how you expressed your feelings towards the whole 'knight in shining armour' idea. I'm not saying that sometimes a 'rescue' isn't helpful (I'll explain why later), but sometimes girls just get too dependant on someone else taking care of them, picking them up, dusting them off, that they forget that God gave them that ability too! I can imagine that as much as it annoys us when a guy does it, some of those guys will get mighty annoyed as well if everytime you get hurt, you come running to them to 'make it better'.

People sometimes take inter-dependance to the nth degree, and people sometimes take independance to the nth degree too. The bible never said anywhere that I can find that we are to be fully reliant on another person to get us through life, or that we are too live isolated lives, without let anybody in to help us grow and mature - we are to be fully reliant on GOD, and that's it, and we are also to have a community around us that promotes growth, support and encouragement (ie a church, and what I think is the best definition of marriage I've seen). The best marriages I have seen (and these are fairly new ones too) are ones where each approaches things equally, and are help-mates for each other, and don't have one party being COMPLETELY reliant on the other for support, encouragement, finances, entertainment, etc.

The only time I've really wanted someone to be my 'knight' was when I'd been completely defamed in character (on this forum actually), and was unable to put together rational thought to answer the charges. That has been the only time I've wanted my boyfriend to rescue me - and he came through (he strutted a bit about it too :D). I like to fight my own battles, but if the going is getting too tough, and I can't do it on my own, it's nice to know he's there to support me and help me out.

A lot of that 'knight in shining armour/damsel in distress' stuff smacks of co-dependance. It tells me that I am a helpless woman, unable to cope with life on my own, and to solve all my problems, all I need is a strong man to fight all my fiery dragons!

Hmmm... last time I checked there aren't too many men around who want a woman who clings off them, and doesn't have a life of her own.

Sasch
 
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Tuffguy

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Marriage and relationships are by very nature dependant. If they wheren't why would we have them? We have everything we need in our own independant life, right? :)

You need to figure out exactly what you want in a relationship. Then you need to evaluate wether that is even realistic and/or the type of male that would find meeting your needs attractive.

I find alot of independant women to be even weaker and more needy then most visually 'dependant' women. Often times women that are physically clingy are seen as more dependant and that just isn't the case all the time. I think thats a harsh generalization.

Personally, i really enjoy women that have their own interests, career, hobbies, and friends. Thats all awesome in my book. However, i will not put up with a constant power struggle in a relationship. I wouldn't wrestle every morning to see who gets to wear the pants that day.
From experience i've found that most women who classify themselves as independant have never dated a man who had is act together and was a complete person. I've dated about 3 girls who called themselves independant and i can tell you right now, they became the most clingy girls you could ever imagine once they realized that they could not bark orders at me, i knew what i was doing, and i have no problem leading and taking on the real mans role in a relationship. After a few weeks their barriers came down, and they realized that they didn't have to put up a 'tough front' of independance w/me. They could relax and be themselves and not play a balancing game of 50% woman 50% man.

Anyway,,that may not describe you, but thats my theory and i'm sticking to it. :)
 
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bliz

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Shania -

You may have the gift of celibacy. You may have simply not met a man, yet, who values the idea of a full and equal parner in life. Either way, it's great that you be comfortable with who you are becasue God gave you your personality and strengths.

I worry about women who want to get married - not to someone in particular, but just wanting to be married. Many women live happy, fulfilling and useful lives without getting married. That may be you, too. Or, upon meeting the right person, you may change your view, but then it would be a response to a person, not to a concept.

You sound like you are doing just fine to me!
 
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bliz

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Tuffguy said:
Personally, i really enjoy women that have their own interests, career, hobbies, and friends. Thats all awesome in my book. However, i will not put up with a constant power struggle in a relationship. I wouldn't wrestle every morning to see who gets to wear the pants that day. :)
So... in other words... "Have your own interests and abilities, but in the marriage, I make all the desisions." Or did I overstate your case?

Don't be too surprised in there aren't lots of women who are not willing to "put up with" your concept of marriage.
 
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hat lady

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Pray and trust God in your relationship with him.
Be content where you are at in life.
Use your talents for the Lord and serve him 100%.
If it is to be a man in your future, he will come, sent by the Lord. And you will know if it's right because you have keep yourself only for the Lord and have a close commuion with him.

There is nothing wrong with being single. Actually single people can do more advancing the Kingdom of God. They aren't distracting with wordly attrachements.
 
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Tuffguy

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bliz said:
So... in other words... "Have your own interests and abilities, but in the marriage, I make all the desisions." Or did I overstate your case?

Don't be too surprised in there aren't lots of women who are not willing to "put up with" your concept of marriage.
No, if i wanted to say "i make all the decisions" then i would have said that.

I've never had a relationship with any girl that i actually had to ask for her opionion. It was usaully out there before i even ask. I like extroverts. :)
I do believe that i would have the final say in decisions where i felt like i was more qualified to make the decisions. There are many cases where i would just say, you do what you need to do.
A wife isn't going to challenge me on stupid things just like i wouldn't challenge her on stupid things. I have the final say and if you have an open relationship where you can work things out and come to a middle ground, that isn't a problem.
Women that are smart and educated have much to offer any male. A smart women will know how to get her husband to see her point of view so there really never ends up being someone making the final call.

The woman is mans helper. The man is the leader of the family even if its only 2 people big. Thats right out of the Bible. Any woman that does not "put up with" that idea does not have a Biblical view of marriage.

Gen 2:18 The LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him."
 
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E

EmSchmem

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I think TuffGuy is saying that he's not going to wage a war just to see who comes out on top. To see who really is the boss. I would agree. It's a waste of everyone's time, emotions, and effort. Biblically speaking the man is still the leader of any marriage. That looks a little different for all marriages but submission does not mean weakness or an inequality. Leadership is really hard and its about being a servant not a controller.
I like my husband becuase he can rescue me when I need it (as a human I need it, not because I'm a woman) but doesn't get all big and bad on me like I can't do anything at all for myself. He likes that I think for myself, have my own friends, have my own intrests, convictions,and the like. We make decisions together but when we don't agree I defer to him. I know he goes and prays about it, seeks counsel about it, comes back to me about it a couple more times, and then makes a decision based on what's best for US.
 
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Sascha Fitzpatrick

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Instead of being codependant, or independant, how about trying interdependance?

This means that you support one another, and encourage one another, but you allow each other to grow at the same time. It's what God highlights as the best example in the Bible - you have people around you (ie in this case your spouse) who complements you - who helps you grow, encourages you and supports you. This goes both ways - from husband to wife, and wife to husband.

This whole 'men as head of household' does get confusing. On first glance, that sounds like a woman isn't able to be a strong decision maker. However, if applied biblically, submission such as this doesn't mean a woman fades in the background, and doesn't get a say in what gets done.

My bf and I have discussed how headship will work in our relationship, and it works pretty well. He's still dealing with some old issues that hinder him being a leader in our relationship (he hasn't done it all that well in the past, and is fearful of being a 'bully' in it), however what we do is, if we have to make a decision, we discuss it together, and more often then not, the decision made is one we both agree on. The only times we've really disagreed about how to do something was if we are buying something (ie a fridge was the last thing - we had different fridges in mind), and in that case, I share my opinion and then say, ok, I'll leave the decision up to you.

Anyway, let me leave you with what www.themarriagebed.com says - it's one of the best definitions of this whole submission/headship thing I've seen.

Headship
><> Paul <><


Headship is a sticky issue; just mentioning it can get folks uptight. This is probably because in the past some have misused scriptures about headship to make women second-class members of the Body of Christ. Years of abuse have made the parts of the Bible which discuss God's intended structure for marriage too hot to handle for some. Avoiding the issue altogether is tempting, but rather than run from it, we need to find and proclaim God's truth.

Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also
loved the church and gave Himself for her, Eph. 5:25

In both the Old and the New Testaments of the Bible, God uses the husband and wife relationship to explain His relationship with us, His people. I find the idea that I should treat my wife as Jesus treats the church to be both instructive and VERY challenging. I'm supposed to emulate the perfect Christ, while my wife is to emulate the very imperfect church .... now who has the worse end of THAT deal?!? I will never be able to love and care for Lori the way Jesus loves and cares for me, but the fact that I should helps me understand who I am to be as husband and head.

Why I'm the head: I must understand that I'm not the head because I am smarter, better, or otherwise superior to her in any way. My headship is positional; I'm the head because God said so, not because I deserve it in any way. Just as Jesus, who was equal to God in all ways, submitted to the Father, so our wives, who are equal to us in all ways eternal, are called to submit to us. God is a God of order, and He requires us to submit to the order He created. When we do this, things work well; when we don't, things end up a mess. While men are not the head because they are better in any way, God always equips us to do that which He calls us to; thus a man who seeks to be the head of his marriage and household will be empowered by God to do the job beyond his own natural ability.

Why being the head makes me a servant: Some think being the head makes a man "the boss" who can do what he wants and demand what he wants. This is not what God calls us to as the head. When we look at Jesus, we see that He was a servant leader. He never demanded or forced His will, even when He knew those around Him were wrong. Jesus was actually rejected by many Jews because He came to serve, not to rule. Likewise we as husbands are called to serve our wives, not rule them. Yes, we are to lead, but it's a leadership based on willing following, not on coercion, force or fear.

A while back some folks at our church were discussing plans for a Valentine's Day banquet. Someone suggested taking Communion, and this prompted another to suggest foot washing. One fellow said "Yeah, our wives can wash our feet" and several men joined in approvingly. But they had it backwards!! Jesus washed the disciples' feet, not the other way around. In Jesus' time it was customary to have a servant wash the guest feet when they came into the house (sandals and dirt roads, you understand). Foot washing was assigned to the lowest servant in the house, so Jesus wasn't just playing the role of a servant, He was being the lowest of the low. As husbands we are called to wash the feet of our wives, not have her wash our feet.

How God calls me to lead: It's not about doing it my way, and it's not about doing it her way. Try thinking of it as being the head of the marriage; the goal is not to rule her, but to guide and direct "us" as a couple. Sometimes what's best for the marriage happens to be what I'd like; sometimes it happens to be what she'd like; sometimes it's something that neither of us really want to do. In short, it's not what either of us wants, it's about what God wants.

Why I'm a fool if I ignore my wife's input: Okay, fool is a strong word, but what else would you call someone who makes decisions without getting all the information? My wife has a different perspective than I do, and that perspective can be extremely valuable. I should not only listen to my wife, I should seek her thoughts and feelings before I make decisions. Peter suggests that men who don't pay attention to their wives are crippling themselves in more ways than one:

Husbands, likewise, dwell with them with
understanding, giving honor to the wife,
... that your prayers may not be hindered. 1 Pet. 3:7

Why being the head doesn't entitle me to demand anything: Free will is real big with God; He even gave us the free will to reject Him and His love. If God gave us that kind of free will with Him, how could He expect anything less in our relationships with other humans? It's one thing to tell my wife what I think should be done, but I see no scriptural support for demanding or forcing her to comply. Jesus never treated people that way, so how can I treat my wife that way?

I'm responsible to lead; I'm not responsible for her following. When the Church fails to follow the Lord, does that mean Jesus has failed? NO!! Similarly, I'm not a failure if my wife chooses not to follow what I say. That's between her and God; it's not my place to make her comply, and it's not my place to take punitive measures.

Being the head is not the cushy perk -illed job some men and women think it is, at least not if we do it God's way. I understand the men who abdicate their duty as head; headship is just plain hard! Still, we're called to do it, and we'll be judged for our obedience or lack of obedience. Failing to be the head God called us to be brings a curse on us and our entire family, but obedience brings blessings to all. As I walk in it, He is with me, guiding me. When I'm not sure how I should proceed, I always think about what Jesus would do with the Church; He is my example and guide.

Submission
><> Lori <><


The word "submission" is translated from the Greek word "hupotasso." (5293 in the Strong's Concordance) It means to place or rank under, to subject or to obey. The word is also fairly often translated "subject."

In the Kingdom of God, "submission" should not be considered a four-letter word (it has ten letters, actually). ;)



Submission in Marriage Roles



It seems clear to me that scripturally women are called to submit to the leadership and direction of their husbands.



Wives, be subject to your husbands, as it fitting in the Lord.
Col. 3:18

Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord. Eph. 5:22

Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives
be to their own husbands in everything. In the same way, you wives,
be submissive to your own husbands so that even if any of them are
disobedient to the word, they may be won without a word by the
behavior of their wives, as they observe your chaste and respectful
behavior ... [adorn yourselves] with the imperishable quality of a
gentle and quiet spirit, which is precious in the sight of God. For in
this way in former times the holy women also, who hope in God,
used to adorn themselves, being submissive to their own husbands.
1Pet. 3:1-5

... be sensible, pure, workers at home, kind, being subject to their
own husbands, that the word of God may not be dishonored.
***. 2:5

In looking at submission and marriage, it seems clear to me that scripturally women are called to submit to the leadership and direction of their husbands. Given the number of scriptures that spell this out so simply in black and white, I find it difficult to see that the scriptures could mean anything other that what they actually say. Although this area of submission can affect more personal issues (and, yes, be a bit scary), I see submitting to a husband as similar to submitting to any other authority. Trusting that a husband is called and anointed to direct the home is no different than trusting that a pastor or elder is called and anointed to direct a church (or a scout master to direct a troop, or a teacher to direct the Bible study etc.). None will be perfect, but each person is called to do a particular job and will be enabled by God to do so.

What submission is not ...
mindless obedience
I think this is covered by understanding Godly disobedience. If someone, anyone, asks you to do wrong, respectfully and graciously say, "No." You are accountable before God for what you say and do.


chunking your intellect and individuality in the waste basket
Submitting to a husband isn't about giving up your individuality, your personal tastes or your dreams. It's not about following your husband around drooling "yes man" phrases.
God created husbands and wives to be a team. Husbands are the leader, but their input alone is not enough (see Headship). The team needs your intelligence, your experience and your perspective also.
Submission is choosing to step into agreement with God's structure of order and trusting Him to work it for everyone's good
 
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