NAD leaving GC? SDA denomination facing schism?

[fictitiousDinosaur]

I was deeply troubled about the future of SDA as a global church from statements made at Annual Conference of leaders at Battle Creek. Several attendees made statements like "if NAD wanted to do different then GC, then just leave." The GC leadership are forbidding the exercise of conscience when it comes to the issue of ordination of women as ministers in SDA church. A compliance requirement was set up where the ultimate authority on local congregational practice are a few elected male GC leaders. SDA Church appearing very much like the papacy. Jesus Christ is no longer the head of His church? A few elected males elected by membership are now the heads?

The gist from what I read of the actual discussion, leaders in other regions of the world are not ready to allow ordination of woman so the North American Division cannot ordinate women without consequences from GC leaders--thus the requirement of compliance with GC rules. The GC will not allow those who by conscience choose to ordain woman as ministers without serious consequences because lack of "compliance" to GC set rules.

A lot of arguement about whether EGW was "ordained". Some saying she didn't require ordination because "ordained of God". Shouldn't all ministers be "ordained of God" rather than men? EGW considered herself "ordained" when she sought discounts in travel expenses but that was OK according to some opinions expressed.

Quotes from Paul that women should not be allowed to speak in Christian churches. Are we still stuck with the Pauline Roman-rule culture in modern day Church? I find it ironic that a church embracing the writings of a female as a prophet of God and basing key doctrines on her writings and Biblical interpretation cannot embrace the idea that women are equal to men in the eyes of God. And the SDA church hierarchy is 100% male. Women not allowed any leadership posts because not allowed to be ordained by male leadership.

Another troubling issue was tithing. NAD has given 7% of tithe to GC while all other divisions pay only 2%. NAD asking for parity in tithing. Isn't tithe given to God? I have never been able to understand the financial bickering about consecrated money given to the Lord by faithful tithe payers. God's will and purpose never sought in monetary matters? Or is it like congressional budgeting in US politics?

 

[eleos1954]

I was deeply troubled about the future of SDA as a global church from statements made at Annual Conference of leaders at Battle Creek. Several attendees made statements like "if NAD wanted to do different then GC, then just leave." The GC leadership are forbidding the exercise of conscience when it comes to the issue of ordination of women as ministers in SDA church. A compliance requirement was set up where the ultimate authority on local congregational practice are a few elected male GC leaders. SDA Church appearing very much like the papacy. Jesus Christ is no longer the head of His church? A few elected males elected by membership are now the heads?

The gist from what I read of the actual discussion, leaders in other regions of the world are not ready to allow ordination of woman so the North American Division cannot ordinate women without consequences from GC leaders--thus the requirement of compliance with GC rules. The GC will not allow those who by conscience choose to ordain woman as ministers without serious consequences because lack of "compliance" to GC set rules.

A lot of arguement about whether EGW was "ordained". Some saying she didn't require ordination because "ordained of God". Shouldn't all ministers be "ordained of God" rather than men? EGW considered herself "ordained" when she sought discounts in travel expenses but that was OK according to some opinions expressed.

Quotes from Paul that women should not be allowed to speak in Christian churches. Are we still stuck with the Pauline Roman-rule culture in modern day Church? I find it ironic that a church embracing the writings of a female as a prophet of God and basing key doctrines on her writings and Biblical interpretation cannot embrace the idea that women are equal to men in the eyes of God. And the SDA church hierarchy is 100% male. Women not allowed any leadership posts because not allowed to be ordained by male leadership.

Another troubling issue was tithing. NAD has given 7% of tithe to GC while all other divisions pay only 2%. NAD asking for parity in tithing. Isn't tithe given to God? I have never been able to understand the financial bickering about consecrated money given to the Lord by faithful tithe payers. God's will and purpose never sought in monetary matters? Or is it like congressional budgeting in US politics?

Sticky wicket. What does the bible say about it?

 

[fictitiousDinosaur]

Bible is silent on Woman's Ordination despite efforts to twist words by Paul. Paul says women "not to speak" which isn't equivalent to ordination.

Some claim Paul himself was not "ordained" yet he admits to baptizing Crispus, Gaius and household of Stephanas (1 Cor. 1:14-16). Were these baptisms determined to be "illegitimate"? Paul says "For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel" (1 Cor. 1:17). Paul was an evangelist and his writings make up most NT scripture to early church. Would SDA church allow him to be an Evangelist and Church leader if not "ordained" by church leaders? He claims "ordained by Christ."

The OT has example of Deborah, the Israelite prophetess during time of the Judges, where she clearly was the spiritual leader and even led Isrealites into battle. These embody all the elements of leadership.

1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment." GC vs NAD clearly divided and not of same mind on a number of issues in SDA leadership.

 

[BobRyan]

I was deeply troubled about the future of SDA as a global church from statements made at Annual Conference of leaders at Battle Creek. Several attendees made statements like "if NAD wanted to do different then GC, then just leave." The GC leadership are forbidding the exercise of conscience when it comes to the issue of ordination of women as ministers in SDA church. A compliance requirement was set up where the ultimate authority on local congregational practice are a few elected male GC leaders.

This is a bit of a rabbit trail since I have not heard of any SDA NAD statement saying they are leaving anything ... you can hear "one person" say many things -- it does not rise to the level of an entire division leaving. Are you just discussing theoretical speculation?

As for GC members claiming that "votes have consequences" when it comes to the entire world-church of the SDA denomination taking a giving position on the teaching regarding women pastors - who is surprised that such a vote "has consequences" for those wishing to ignore it while getting paid by the denomination?

 

[fictitiousDinosaur]

This is a bit of a rabbit trail since I have not heard of any SDA NAD statement saying they are leaving anything ... you can hear "one person" say many things -- it does not rise to the level of an entire division leaving. Are you just discussing theoretical speculation?

As for GC members claiming that "votes have consequences" when it comes to the entire world-church of the SDA denomination taking a giving position on the teaching regarding women pastors - who is surprised that such a vote "has consequences" for those wishing to ignore it while getting paid by the denomination?

In the discussion among GC world leaders, several said to those of NAD, "if you don't agree, then just leave GC." They weren't telling individuals to leave. They were telling NAD to leave GC.

Interesting that you see leaders of church as paid employees rather than shepherds of His people. And individual conscience is forbidden.

I left SDA church around the time ordination of women first came up (for other issues) so do not know what has happened in the decades that passed. Many Christian denominations have struggled with this same issue. A number have decided to ordain women. Others still maintain ordination only available to males. Ordination of Women is not my issue, one way or the other as I am not a member of SDA church now.

I was a member a Presbyterian congregation a dozen years ago that was part of one of the distinct and separate Presbyterian organizations. The annual meeting of that organization focused on the question of ordaining practicing gays into the ministry despite not ordaining women. It literally split the local congregation. Half decided to stay with parent organization and half decided to group together with other dissenters creating a new Presbyterian organization. That is when I left Presbyterianism.

I have been a member of Southern Baptists, Lutheran, United Metodists and Independent Christian churches. Southern Baptist Churches have no "common doctrines" . Each congregation decides their own doctrine. Methodists have only a bare minimum of doctrines and I attended many services where the sermon never mentioned God or Jesus Christ. Lutheran services were too "catholic" for me. Independent Christian churches were all over the map with doctrine being of minor importance. So obviously doctrine is important to me. But doctrine must be Bible-based and not on the visions of one individual

 

[BobRyan]

In the discussion among GC world leaders, several said to those of NAD, "if you don't agree, then just leave GC." They weren't telling individuals to leave.

Individual statements do not a "Division make" ... I am part of the NAD and I am certain there is not sufficient interest in NAD membership to leave the denomination. Any faction/splinter that wants to do so - as in your case leaving the Adventist denomination is of course welcome to do so. Every person has free will.

 

[BobRyan]

Southern Baptist Churches have no "common doctrines" . Each congregation decides their own doctrine.

That's the marketing literature.

For a better understanding take the time to actually read the Southern Baptist "Baptist Faith and Message" and read "the Baptist Confession of Faith"

Be informed.

 

[fictitiousDinosaur]

You are fairly ignorant about Southern Baptists. From their own website:

"Among doctrines Southern Baptists emphasize is the doctrine of local church autonomy. Article VI of the Southern Baptist Convention’s confession of faithclearly states, “A New Testament church of the Lord Jesus Christ is an autonomous local congregation of baptized believers, associated by covenant in the faith and fellowship of the Gospel.”

Autonomy of local congregation is the hallmark of Southern Baptists. That is not merely "propaganda". It is doctrine. Any resolutions made at Annual Southern Baptist Concention ARE NONBINDING. The "Southetn Baptist Convention" provides cooperation between autonomous congregations but it has no authority over individual congregations.

 

[fictitiousDinosaur]

Read this press release from NAD leaders.

NAD Statement on 2018 General Conference Annual Council Vote | North American Division of Seventh-day Adventists

 

[eleos1954]

Bible is silent on Woman's Ordination despite efforts to twist words by Paul. Paul says women "not to speak" which isn't equivalent to ordination.

Some claim Paul himself was not "ordained" yet he admits to baptizing Crispus, Gaius and household of Stephanas (1 Cor. 1:14-16). Were these baptisms determined to be "illegitimate"? Paul says "For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel" (1 Cor. 1:17). Paul was an evangelist and his writings make up most NT scripture to early church. Would SDA church allow him to be an Evangelist and Church leader if not "ordained" by church leaders? He claims "ordained by Christ."

The OT has example of Deborah, the Israelite prophetess during time of the Judges, where she clearly was the spiritual leader and even led Isrealites into battle. These embody all the elements of leadership.

1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment." GC vs NAD clearly divided and not of same mind on a number of issues in SDA leadership.

****

Spent some time on this coming to a conclusion. First let me state I am a woman.

Genesis 2:18

Then the Lord God said, “It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him.”

Genesis 3:16

To the woman he said, “I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children. Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.”
(The authority structure setup by God.)

Ephesians 5:22-24

Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.

1 Corinthians 11:3

But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.

1 Timothy 2:11-15

Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.

Ephesians 5:23

For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior.


Jesus selected 12 apostles (spiritual leaders). He was God incarnate. He could have very well selected a woman (or more than one woman) to be an apostle, He did not.

It is not a matter of equality. Men and women are different and were created with different roles. One is to compliment the other.

Women's role are to be helpers (to man/men who are living in harmony with Christ's teachings) Women are also to teach their children and other women. Women are held in high regard by the Lord and also should be by men.

Being that a woman ordained, that being a minister from the pulpit, would not being following the authority structure (from creation) because men are present. As far as otherwise, yes women should be involved in all other aspects of leadership within the church organization.

Examples: Say a woman is married and she is an ordained minister and her husband not, then is she the head (spiritual leadership) of her husband? Or perhaps they are both ordained, who is the head (spiritual leadership) between the two? Well biblically, she is to submit to her husband.

God established the hierarchy from creation, each created with different and important roles. Overwhelming in the bible "leaders" whether spiritual or otherwise have been men are we to ignore this? There are many many ways to serve the Lord and one does not have to be ordained to do them .... man or women. Serve the Lord, you don't have to be ordained to do it.

Because Jesus likens His church to marriage, I believe this is further evidence of the hierarchy set forth from creation using marriage as the example. Man and women become one, they are both one in Christ, through Christ becoming one in God the creator with all serving Him.

God Bless.

 

[BobRyan]

****

Spent some time on this coming to a conclusion. First let me state I am a woman.

Genesis 2:18

Then the Lord God said, “It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him.”

Genesis 3:16

To the woman he said, “I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children. Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.”
(The authority structure setup by God.)

Ephesians 5:22-24

Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.

1 Corinthians 11:3

But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.

Ok - but there are two issues here.

1. We are not talking about a vote to change the relationship between husband and wife -- we are talking about ordaining women as pastors. And the vote was to "not endorse it". So while I do appreciate your Bible basis for your personal conclusion I don't think the husband-wife details apply since there was no vote to address that relationship in the first place. Both sides would/should have assumed that the denomination's view of it remains unchanged.

2. Whether someone is for or against ordaining women as pastors - the point that is often opposed is the one where the vote of the denomination "matters" and "has consequences". In other words some folks imagine to themselves that such a vote "has no consequence" and try to ignore it, all the while getting paid by the denomination. That is a problem, no matter which side of the issue one is on.

 

[BobRyan]

Read this press release from NAD leaders.

NAD Statement on 2018 General Conference Annual Council Vote | North American Division of Seventh-day Adventists

Interesting what "six guys in a room" can come up with. But the SDA denomination has decentralized power structures that extend well beyond the GC -- which means the NAD does not actually control the conferences of the NAD in terms of whether they are part of the GC or not. What is more a few years ago GC officials made it clear that they would open up an "approved NAD" administrative organization if in the worst case scenario - "six guys in a room" decided to try and wrench the division away from the Adventist church to whatever extent they could.

NAD funding would quickly dry up if those six guys decided to "go rogue".

But "before that" would even be imagined - they would likely first be fired.

For now I think they are casting about them trying to find out how much of the left-coast and how much of folks in Illinois are even with them as they climb out on that limb.

 

[fictitiousDinosaur]

Actually, decentralized is not what happened. The vote was not for/against WO. It was a new hierarchical structure created by GC employees to determine everything a pastor can say/believe. That a compliance committee not appointed or elected by members would be watching, spying, judging, disciplining. No freedom to determine the truth by their own conscience and what the Holy Spirit has revealed to a Christian Minister through prayer and scripture study. A new hierarchical system that the church has created to force compliance with only a hand-picked committee dictating "truth". You should read the German Conferences resonse to this hierarchy.
WELCOME TO THE NEW SDA GESTSPO.

 

[eleos1954]

Ok - but there are two issues here.

1. We are not talking about a vote to change the relationship between husband and wife -- we are talking about ordaining women as pastors. And the vote was to "not endorse it". So while I do appreciate your Bible basis for your personal conclusion I don't think the husband-wife details apply since there was no vote to address that relationship in the first place. Both sides would/should have assumed that the denomination's view of it remains unchanged.

2. Whether someone is for or against ordaining women as pastors - the point that is often opposed is the one where the vote of the denomination "matters" and "has consequences". In other words some folks imagine to themselves that such a vote "has no consequence" and try to ignore it, all the while getting paid by the denomination. That is a problem, no matter which side of the issue one is on.

We are not talking about a vote to change the relationship between husband and wife -- we are talking about ordaining women as pastors. Yes, I realize this.

but ... in the verses to me (relating to the marriage relationship), further supports the hierarchy intended from creation. God-Jesus-man-woman The church being depicted as a woman submits to her husband Christ. Like it or not ... throughout the bible ... women were not preaching from the pulpit. I know it can be argued from different angels, ie the times and culture, tradition etc. but that's not how it is shown throughout biblical history and ordaining women is more-so applying modern culture to scripture rather than applying scripture to modern culture.

Like I said ... man and women created equal, each with important yet different roles or duties.

I don't support ordaining women, nor do I think it requires a vote in regard to ordaining women. Is it clear in Gods word or not? I believe it is.

God Bless all.

 

[BobRyan]

Read this press release from NAD leaders.

NAD Statement on 2018 General Conference Annual Council Vote | North American Division of Seventh-day Adventists

Interesting what "six guys in a room" can come up with. But the SDA denomination has decentralized power structures that extend well beyond the GC -- which means the NAD does not actually control the conferences of the NAD in terms of whether they are part of the GC or not. What is more a few years ago GC officials made it clear that they would open up an "approved NAD" administrative organization if in the worst case scenario - "six guys in a room" decided to try and wrench the division away from the Adventist church to whatever extent they could.

NAD funding would quickly dry up if those six guys decided to "go rogue".

But "before that" would even be imagined - they would likely first be fired.

For now I think they are casting about them trying to find out how much of the left-coast and how much of folks in Illinois are even with them as they climb out on that limb.

Actually, decentralized is not what happened.

Not quite -- we are decentralized already. Conferences have admin authority over local churches and actually "own" the property of the local church. But the NAD does not. What is more -- the conference officials are elected by the local churches -- not by the NAD nor even by the Unions below the NAD.

We call that "decentralized" - still.

The vote was not for/against WO. It was a new hierarchical structure created by GC employees to determine everything a pastor can say/believe.

Not quite true in real life.

In 1980 about 120 pastors were fired for not holding to SDA doctrine -- which was a big deal back then but every now and then one or two get fired for that same reason. Just normal house cleaning.

No freedom to determine the truth by their own conscience and what the Holy Spirit has revealed to a Christian Minister through prayer and scripture study.

Not true at all. We all have freedom to do that. What we do not have freedom to do is to make the denomination "pay us" once we decide to start teaching Catholicism or straight up Lutheran or Calvinist doctrine -- "as if" that is Adventist in every respect. Each denomination has the right and responsibility to ensure that those they are paying to teach -- teach what they actually believe.

 

[eleos1954]

Not true at all. We all have freedom to do that. What we do not have freedom to do is to make the denomination "pay us" once we decide to start teaching Catholicism or straight up Lutheran or Calvinist doctrine -- "as if" that is Adventist in every respect. Each denomination has the right and responsibility to ensure that those they are paying to teach -- teach what they actually believe.

I don't understand this paragraph.

 

[BobRyan]

I don't understand this paragraph.

The person I was responding to was complaining that the denomination was taking steps in 2018 to ensure the decision made in 2015 regarding ordination of women is implemented and that rogue administrators that might differ with it - are held accountable. Their argument was that as members/pastors/teachers paid by the denomination our freedom would be infringed upon if we could not teach any-and-everything that comes to mind as long as we are convinced of it.

I simply point out that guarding against rogue elements is not entirely without support in SDA history and that all denominations have an obligation to ensure that they are not paying people to teach against the voted beliefs of that given denomination. So SDAs do not want to "pay" pastors and teachers to promote evolution, or LGBT, or 5 point Calvinism, ( or Lutheran church doctrines on the state of the dead or Sabbath or communion) or ordaining women pastors etc when the denomination itself has taken a position against those ideas. It is more or less what one would expect.

 

[eleos1954]

The person I was responding to was complaining that the denomination was taking steps in 2018 to ensure the decision made in 2015 is implemented and that rogue administrators that might differ with it - are held accountable. Their argument was that as members/pastors/teachers paid by the denomination our freedom would be infringed upon if we could not teach any-and-everything that comes to mind as long as we are convinced of it.

I simply point out that this is not entirely without support in history and that all denominations have an obligation to ensure that they are not paying people to teach against the voted beliefs of that given denomination. So SDAs do not want to "pay" pastors and teachers to promote evolution, or LGBT, or ordaining women pastors etc when the denomination itself has taken a position against those ideas. It is more or less what one would expect.

Thank you for the clarification ... and yes ... it is what one would expect. In fact, more so, if a person (pastor or otherwise) does not believe that a churches stated positions are not "in-line" with their understanding or belief (their conscience) of the Word of God ... then they should seek out one that is. A churches stated doctrine and adherence to it is important, else the flock is uninformed and/or confused and scattered.

Many beliefs out there, many choices, many churches, each of us choose, based on their best understanding of Gods Holy Word. The Lords people are in all of them.

May the Lord bless all through His Holy Word. AMEN