Mythic denominational history.

bbbbbbb

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The majority of Baptists have never subscribed to Landmarkism. It emerged in the 19th century, and has been historically rejected by most Baptists as nonsense. Which is why you'll only find it among a fringe minority of Baptists.

-CryptoLutheran
While this is quite true, I did find it somewhat unsettling when I visited Tremont Temple Baptist Church in Boston which, for many decades was pretty much the mother church of the American Baptist Convention. It has a set of very large stained glass windows depicting the martyrs of the Baptist faith from the first century onward.
 
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ViaCrucis

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I agree. In my various interactions I have discovered that the best defence is to get them off script. They have been carefully scripted to respond to standard questions as well as to present their narrative. I remember one time when I had been doing some study of the book of Revelation where I was coming to the conclusion that the primary purpose of the book was to reveal the person and work of Jesus Christ, all of which is deeply centers on His divinity. Some JW's came to my door and I asked them if they worshiped Jesus Christ. Of course they do not because they believe only Jehovah is worthy of worship. I then opened Revelation to them and revealed several of the multitude of verses wherein the Lamb of God, Jesus Christ, is worshiped. It did not take long before they scampered.

My interactions with JW's has been pretty minor. 99% of the time when they show up it's just to leave a pamphlet. The 1% of the time where they actually engaged me they asked if they could stop by for a "Bible study" at a later time, which I agreed to if just to experience what they do first hand, however they never returned.

Now, with Mormons, it's been a very long time, but about twenty years ago I let them come in and do their thing. They later brought a more experienced guy in to answer my questions, however he ended up getting annoyed and frustrated by my questions. I wasn't trying to be rude, I just had questions. But similar experience with yours--they have a script to go by, and don't seem very well equipped at dealing with questions of any real substance.

On the one hand, I get it. If my church was sending out 18 year old kids, or Mr. and Mrs. Jones out door to door, I doubt they'd be able to address every major question. But then, why would you send out people who aren't equipped to handle serious questions like that? And ya gotta assume that if you have these people going door to door, they'll eventually come across people who will ask serious questions and push back a little by probing deeper.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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bbbbbbb

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My interactions with JW's has been pretty minor. 99% of the time when they show up it's just to leave a pamphlet. The 1% of the time where they actually engaged me they asked if they could stop by for a "Bible study" at a later time, which I agreed to if just to experience what they do first hand, however they never returned.

Now, with Mormons, it's been a very long time, but about twenty years ago I let them come in and do their thing. They later brought a more experienced guy in to answer my questions, however he ended up getting annoyed and frustrated by my questions. I wasn't trying to be rude, I just had questions. But similar experience with yours--they have a script to go by, and don't seem very well equipped at dealing with questions of any real substance.

On the one hand, I get it. If my church was sending out 18 year old kids, or Mr. and Mrs. Jones out door to door, I doubt they'd be able to address every major question. But then, why would you send out people who aren't equipped to handle serious questions like that? And ya gotta assume that if you have these people going door to door, they'll eventually come across people who will ask serious questions and push back a little by probing deeper.

-CryptoLutheran

Their apparent strategy is to cast their nets as widely as possible in the hope that they will catch folks who are really naive and curious, which seems to be more and more the case with the move from biblically oriented knowledge in society at large. When you have folks who are willing to do this at their own expense, it is a no-brainer. The problem over the past decade or so in both groups is that volunteers are increasingly harder to come by. The Mormons are hemorrhaging members. especially young people, at the moment. The LDS leadership seems to be on the cusp of getting a new revelation, comparable to their revelation in 1978 opening their priesthood to blacks and the much earlier revelation around 1910 abandoning polygamy, concerning LGBT issues as well as issues with women in general. The current situation is that the LDS is stretched very thin in its missionary outreach. I have not seen Mormon missionaries in my area for over a decade now. It is a real conundrum for the LDS to maintain a party line of having restored Christianity to its original purity through Joseph Smith and then deviating from that "purity" through subsequent "revelations". There is a really interesting podcast called "Mormon Stories" which you might enjoy.

The JW's are also experiencing incredible internal turmoil as evidenced by the recent mass shooting in a Kingdom Hall in northern Germany. The net result on a local level as that their outreach also seems to be considerably diminished.
 
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The Righterzpen

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While it is a fair assessment to note that "history is written by the victors", and thus we can recognize the biases of history; but it is quite another thing to simply throw all the history books in the fire and simply make up an alternative story that fits whatever one wants.

Are historical sources biased? Of course they are. Every work written by human beings contains a bias. But the alternative to biased history isn't burning the history books, but taking such bias into account in our study of history.

If one were to take two contemporary works on the war which led to the thirteen colonies in America becoming independent, one British and one American, we will have two biased works of history. That, however, doesn't make either work useless; but rather provides us with the perspectives of those writing the work, but still writing about real things that happened.

Bias does not eliminate the value of history; it is simply something to be consciously aware of when doing historical study.

So, as an example, are official Church sources going to have a bias when writing about certain groups (e.g. ancient Gnostics, medieval Cathars, et al) of course. But that doesn't mean that we can just make up whatever we want about those groups to suit whatever agenda we might want.

Of course official sources will depict the Cathars in a negative light, but that doesn't mean that the Cathars were actually Baptists, their rites, their beliefs, their practices, etc can still be ascertained. And ascertaining that, it's clear that no Baptist today would want to be associated with the Cathars, or with the Bogomils, or with the Paulicians, etc.

Bias is not an excuse to throw history books in fire. Again, bias is simply something the honest historian has to take into account when studying history.

-CryptoLutheran
There's a difference though between bias and propaganda. Simple bias generally still contains truth. (Allies narrative of D-day is different than Germany's narrative of D-day; but the facts of the battle are pretty consistent on both sides.)

Propaganda though, can range from exaggeration to flat out fabrication. Propaganda serves a purpose (usually to start wars; or rally people to fight them) but also has been used to extort wealth from other nations. (That's why I say "follow the money" and you'll find the propaganda!)

Real events can also be used for propaganda purposes. That doesn't mean that no one died, or the event wasn't real; just that what they tell you about the event; isn't the truth (or whole truth). There was an agenda behind the event. This, one can usually spot from the subsequent agendas pushed by the propagandists.
 
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bbbbbbb

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There's a difference though between bias and propaganda. Simple bias generally still contains truth. (Allies narrative of D-day is different than Germany's narrative of D-day; but the facts of the battle are pretty consistent on both sides.)

Propaganda though, can range from exaggeration to flat out fabrication. Propaganda serves a purpose (usually to start wars; or rally people to fight them) but also has been used to extort wealth from other nations. (That's why I say "follow the money" and you'll find the propaganda!)

Real events can also be used for propaganda purposes. That doesn't mean that no one died, or the event wasn't real; just that what they tell you about the event; isn't the truth (or whole truth). There was an agenda behind the event. This, one can usually spot from the subsequent agendas pushed by the propagandists.
Interestingly, it was the Roman Catholic Church which came up with the concept of propaganda. You can read more about it here - Sacred Congregation of Propaganda - Encyclopedia Volume - Catholic Encyclopedia - Catholic Online
 
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The Righterzpen

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Interestingly, it was the Roman Catholic Church which came up with the concept of propaganda. You can read more about it here - Sacred Congregation of Propaganda - Encyclopedia Volume - Catholic Encyclopedia - Catholic Online
"Propaganda" as a tactic existed long before the RCC did. Go look at the "exploits" of ancient empires and how they wrote their histories. "Modern scholars" have accused the Bible of "propaganda"; yet archeology has subsequently come to prove these other empires and people groups did actually exist.
 
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Valletta

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bbbbbbb

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"Propaganda" as a tactic existed long before the RCC did. Go look at the "exploits" of ancient empires and how they wrote their histories. "Modern scholars" have accused the Bible of "propaganda"; yet archeology has subsequently come to prove these other empires and people groups did actually exist.
You missed my point. The etymology of the word "propaganda" is based in the RCC Sacred Office of Propaganda. Their definition of "propaganda" differs significantly from the popular definition of the word.
 
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bbbbbbb

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False. The concept of what we define today as propaganda occurred before Jesus was on earth. The Catholic Church propagated and propagates the faith--spreads the Gospel.
You missed my point. The etymology of the word "propaganda" is based in the RCC Sacred Office of Propaganda. Their definition of "propaganda" differs significantly from the popular definition of the word.
 
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Valletta

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You missed my point. The etymology of the word "propaganda" is based in the RCC Sacred Office of Propaganda. Their definition of "propaganda" differs significantly from the popular definition of the word.
That's clearly not what you said. You said "'propaganda' as a tactic."
 
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The Righterzpen

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You missed my point. The etymology of the word "propaganda" is based in the RCC Sacred Office of Propaganda. Their definition of "propaganda" differs significantly from the popular definition of the word.
The assumption is that the word "propaganda" came from the Latin word "propagate" which the political definition of "propaganda" was not what these cardinals were saying. The cardinals use of the word was: "any movement or organization to propagate some practice or ideology"; which is a pretty neuter definition.

It's kind of like the word "gay". Like as the word "propaganda" stated by these cardinals in 1790; "gay" also had a different meaning in 1790 than it does today. Same goes for the word "intercourse". 200 years ago "intercourse" meant "conversation".

So no; to say the RCC "invented propaganda" is not an honest explanation of the origin of the word. (The cardinals only invented the word; not the modern definition of it.)

 
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FenderTL5

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It's been forever, but when I was a baptist, I never could find anyone who actually believed that trail of blood thing. It may just be an internet thing that spread like a weed..
I must have been one of the "lucky" ones. The independent Baptist church I grew up in had the Trail of Blood and Chick tracts readily available at all times.
That was long before the internet.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Their apparent strategy is to cast their nets as widely as possible in the hope that they will catch folks who are really naive and curious, which seems to be more and more the case with the move from biblically oriented knowledge in society at large. When you have folks who are willing to do this at their own expense, it is a no-brainer. The problem over the past decade or so in both groups is that volunteers are increasingly harder to come by. The Mormons are hemorrhaging members. especially young people, at the moment. The LDS leadership seems to be on the cusp of getting a new revelation, comparable to their revelation in 1978 opening their priesthood to blacks and the much earlier revelation around 1910 abandoning polygamy, concerning LGBT issues as well as issues with women in general. The current situation is that the LDS is stretched very thin in its missionary outreach. I have not seen Mormon missionaries in my area for over a decade now. It is a real conundrum for the LDS to maintain a party line of having restored Christianity to its original purity through Joseph Smith and then deviating from that "purity" through subsequent "revelations". There is a really interesting podcast called "Mormon Stories" which you might enjoy.

The JW's are also experiencing incredible internal turmoil as evidenced by the recent mass shooting in a Kingdom Hall in northern Germany. The net result on a local level as that their outreach also seems to be considerably diminished.

Interesting, and thank you for the heads up for the podcast, sounds like something interesting to check out.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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The JW's are also experiencing incredible internal turmoil as evidenced by the recent mass shooting in a Kingdom Hall in northern Germany. The net result on a local level as that their outreach also seems to be considerably diminished.
JW appear to be attempting to adjust to the electronic era and the restrictions due to COVID on the one hand and their diminishing resources for printing and door-to-door visits on the other. In the EU they can no longer maintain records about visits to households because it would be a breach of the privacy legislation in EU countries. In other parts of the world I think people are less tolerant of strangers knocking at their door during the day time and especially on week ends. And to top it off there's a large body of former Jehovah's witnesses who are very active on-line to debunk and attack alleged and real faults in their religion and its organisations.
 
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bbbbbbb

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JW appear to be attempting to adjust to the electronic era and the restrictions due to COVID on the one hand and their diminishing resources for printing and door-to-door visits on the other. In the EU they can no longer maintain records about visits to households because it would be a breach of the privacy legislation in EU countries. In other parts of the world I think people are less tolerant of strangers knocking at their door during the day time and especially on week ends. And to top it off there's a large body of former Jehovah's witnesses who are very active on-line to debunk and attack alleged and real faults in their religion and its organisations.
I think they probably have a very long way to go to adjust to the electronic era. Unlike the LDS which does have a fairly significant on-line presence, the JW's are really relatively invisible. In doing a simple search, I did encounter their website amidst numerous other websites which either attempt to provide an unbiased view of them (e.g. Wikipedia) or try to expose their errors.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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I think they probably have a very long way to go to adjust to the electronic era. Unlike the LDS which does have a fairly significant on-line presence, the JW's are really relatively invisible. In doing a simple search, I did encounter their website amidst numerous other websites which either attempt to provide an unbiased view of them (e.g. Wikipedia) or try to expose their errors.
All of their official meeting places have a wite text on blue background sign with JW ORG written on it. So they do appear to be promoting their web site quite actively.
 
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bbbbbbb

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All of their official meeting places have a wite text on blue background sign with JW ORG written on it. So they do appear to be promoting their web site quite actively.
I agree that they finally do have a web presence, but unless one is actually interested in visiting their official site there is nothing else other than the unbiased descriptive sites such as Wikipedia and the anti-JW sites which are quite numerous. There is no JW forum at all, either for members or non-JWs. The LDS do have forums open to members and non-members. Interestingly, their forums contain a lot of threads which are critically analyzing many of the doctrines of Mormonism - and this is by Mormons themselves.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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I agree that they finally do have a web presence, but unless one is actually interested in visiting their official site there is nothing else other than the unbiased descriptive sites such as Wikipedia and the anti-JW sites which are quite numerous. There is no JW forum at all, either for members or non-JWs. The LDS do have forums open to members and non-members. Interestingly, their forums contain a lot of threads which are critically analyzing many of the doctrines of Mormonism - and this is by Mormons themselves.
I am sure that Jehovah's witnesses would not tolerate critical analysis of their doctrines because they think of their doctrines as "food in the proper season" given to them by "the faithful and true servant" of Jehovah which is the governing body of the religion, a group of 9 or so men in New York state.
 
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I am sure that Jehovah's witnesses would not tolerate critical analysis of their doctrines because they think of their doctrines as "food in the proper season" given to them by "the faithful and true servant" of Jehovah which is the governing body of the religion, a group of 9 or so men in New York state.
I agree entirely. Thank you.
 
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