Myth, Fact, Parable

[Akita Suggagaki]

Some authors, based on their detective work and interpretation of data, might claim that. But that is not the same as it actually being so. So far no archaeologist has dug up an ancient city and found a plaque saying 'built in 10,000BC!'. Kind Regards

Probably because they did not know what B.C. meant.

 

[trophy33]

Myth, fact, parable

Probably all of them.

It was written in mythological era and some mythological elements are present (number 40 or symbolic birds, for example).

Also, some later redaction of the story can be seen (clean and unclean animals are from Mosaic Law).

There will also be some fact behind it, the human population was one time concentrated in the Mesopotamian area and such flood could be universal for early human civilization (not meaning planetary), leading to dispersion to other parts of the world.

Also, its a parable - an image of Christ and of salvation in Him from the judgement of the world.

 

[Sabertooth]

Jesus recognized the Flood as being historical in Matthew 24:37-39.

 

[trophy33]

Jesus recognized the Flood as being historical in Matthew 24:37-39.

Not exactly, He was just referring to the text. We probably cannot conclude if He thought it was historical, mythological of what percentage of each is in it.

But I think it was not even a topic in those days, they used the sacred texts as a source of theological and philosophical truths, they did not have scientific view of history.

 

[lismore]

Probably because they did not know what B.C. meant.

Yes exactly. Interpretation of the past based on current understandings, the past is gone and history/archaeology is the narrative interpretation academics make of the past when they go to work. Kind Regards

 

[Laconia79]

If the ark is found at say 14000 feet on Ararat what then?

But it has not been, I know I look, I have looked and looked some more. Every story of it being found never holds up to the archelogical microscope. But here is simple truth, the bible say the flood happened 4/5000 years ago. Such a flood would have ripped the surface of the planet apart. There would be no evidence of human habitaion before the and the first great empire was in mesopotamia a thousand years befor the biblical flood and there is evidence of it. Carbon dating is extremly accurate in the first 30k years. That does take away from the existence of god. Every culture has flood story, the first recorded flood story was 1000 years before the biblical Noah was born. So yes there was a massive flood in the last 10k years and that flood became the basis of the flood story. But there was no flood that covered the entire planet 20 feet over the tallest mountain that is miles above the surface of the planet. There is no evidence of such a flood and there would be.

 

[Halbhh]

But it has not been, I know I look, I have looked and looked some more. Every story of it being found never holds up to the archelogical microscope. But here is simple truth, the bible say the flood happened 4/5000 years ago. Such a flood would have ripped the surface of the planet apart. There would be no evidence of human habitaion before the and the first great empire was in mesopotamia a thousand years befor the biblical flood and there is evidence of it. Carbon dating is extremly accurate in the first 30k years. That does take away from the existence of god. Every culture has flood story, the first recorded flood story was 1000 years before the biblical Noah was born. So yes there was a massive flood in the last 10k years and that flood became the basis of the flood story. But there was no flood that covered the entire planet 20 feet over the tallest mountain that is miles above the surface of the planet. There is no evidence of such a flood and there would be.

While I'd suggest my posts above are getting at the main thing, the real messages are not about how deep the water was where.... but instead about us, you and me and everyone.

We can consider though that additionally God would remove every clear proof of any miraculous event everywhere.... until Christ returns...

Why?

Because clear proof would pre-empt/prevent the chance to have faith without first seeing proof.

God wants faith from us.

So there must not be any obvious proof of any miracle.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Not exactly, He was just referring to the text. We probably cannot conclude if He thought it was historical, mythological of what percentage of each is in it.

But I think it was not even a topic in those days, they used the sacred texts as a source of theological and philosophical truths, they did not have scientific view of history.

Josephus records that it was common to make a pilgrimage to the ark in Jesus day and this would have been common knowledge. He named the tribe who were appointed to be guardians of the ark.

 

[disciple Clint]

The flood, the flood story was around 1000 years before abraham existed. There have been massive floods in human history. For a stone age people it would be the end of the world. Tells of those floods would have been emebleshed over the centries. Now according to the bible the flood happened no less that 4000 years ago and no longer than 5000 years ago, if you got technical and used all the biblical information 4300 years ago is the closest. Next the story say the waters were 20 feet over the tallest mountain even then Everest would have probably held that record. If you follow the bible exactly the flood would have covered the earth several miles above the surface. Now here is the real kicker the oldest human settlements and cities go back 10s of thousands of years. Such a flood have destroyed any evidence of the existance of humanity before the flood. Lets go to biology and the effects of inbreeding . The largest problem is many of the bible stories especially the flood story do not hold up under the Archeological, Geological, and Biological microscope. I can believe in god and I can believe the bible is book that is part history and part parable and myth. That does not threaten my belief in god, because I belive that Archeology, Astronomy, Biology, Geology all the sciences prove the existance of god. I believe the univeres is far to complex to have came about by chance. But I also know the anciet civilizations were ignorant of Archeology, Atronomy, Biology, Geology all the sciences as we know it today. I know the biblical flood story did not happen because there is no evidence of it...absolutly none. Now has every part of the planet been under water yes that is caused buy earthquake volcanoes tsunamies and floods. I swear if there was a line in the bible saying 1+1=3 and we know it equals two a large portion of Christianity would argue it. I am not threatened buy scientce and from were I am sitting many Christians are threatened by Archeology, Atronomy, Biology, Geology all the sciences.

I am one of those people who feels that much of the O.T. is likely allegory and frankly it makes no difference if it is or not. I am looking at the bible to see what God wants to teach me, the Bible is not a science book, it never was intended to tell you how the heavens go but it instead tells you how to go to heaven by accepting and having a living relationship with God, and frankly to me that is all that matters.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Josephus records that it was common to make a pilgrimage to the ark in Jesus day and this would have been common knowledge. He named the tribe who were appointed to be guardians of the ark.

Ans some beleive the reall cross of Christ has been found.

Yes exactly. Interpretation of the past based on current understandings, the past is gone and history/archaeology is the narrative interpretation academics make of the past when they go to work. Kind Regards

It sounds like you do not have much appreciation for "academics". That is people who have made study their profession.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

List of flood myths - Wikipedia

Maybe something more important is going on than historicity.

 

[lismore]

It sounds like you do not have much appreciation for "academics". That is people who have made study their profession.

I paraphrased this quote 'The past is gone and History is what Historians make of it when they go to work', from a book by John Tosh 'The Pursuit of History'. Module 1 in an undergraduate History Degree is the nature of History, the limitations of sources and the role of bias in historiography. So yes, I have an excellent and realistic appreciation for academics. They do a lot of interesting detective work and make educated assumptions, but the past and history are not the same thing. This is not openly debated as far as I know. Kind Regards to you

 

[lismore]

List of flood myths - Wikipedia

Maybe something more important is going on than historicity.

Perhaps widely held but garbled memories of the same event. God Bless

 

[Carl Emerson]

Ans some beleive the reall cross of Christ has been found.

What on earth has that got to do with the record of a Jewish historian ?

 

[trophy33]

Josephus records that it was common to make a pilgrimage to the ark in Jesus day and this would have been common knowledge. He named the tribe who were appointed to be guardians of the ark.

Even if true, it doest not mean that it proves every sentence about flood from Genesis to be historical. It would also be good to give the book and chapter of Josephus.

Its very probable that the flood happened, in Mesopotamia, in the cradle of civilization.

But it does not mean it had to be 40 days, that raven and dove were involved or that they already divided animals to clean and unclean according to Mosaic rules. And of course, the "whole world" in the text does not mean the whole planet.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Flavius Josephus of the Antiquities of the Jews — Book I
Chapter 3.
Noah learned, that the earth was become clear of (18) The place of descent: for the Ark being saved in that place, its remains are shewed there by the inhabitants to this day.

6. Now all the writers of Barbarian Histories make mention of this flood, and of this Ark: among whom is Berosus the Chaldean. For when he is describing the circumstances of the flood, he goes on thus: “It is said there is still some part of this ship in Armenia, at the mountain of the Cordyæans; and that some people carry off pieces of the bitumen: which they take away, and use chiefly as amulets, for the averting of mischiefs.” Hieronymus the Egyptian also, who wrote the Phenician Antiquities; and Mnaseas, and a great many more make mention of the same. Nay Nicolaus of Damascus, in his ninety sixth Book, hath a particular relation about them: where he speaks thus: “There is a great mountain in Armenia, over Minyas, called Baris: upon which it is reported that many who fled at the time of the deluge were saved: and that one who was carried in an Ark, came on shore upon the top of it; and that the remains of the timber were a great while preserved: this might be the man about whom Moses, the Legislator of the Jews, wrote.”

 

[dqhall]

If the ark is found at say 14000 feet on Ararat what then?

There are millions of species of animals and plants. They could not fit on an ark with enough food to last 40 days. They range from polar bears to elephants to tigers to humming birds. The leopards and wolves may eat sheep and goats. Cactus and oaks drown under water. Panda bears and koala bears are on different continents.

I do not believe God is as bad as to have killed everyone except one inbreeding family. It is a fictitious account of ancient life. I know Jesus can do miracles. Capernaum, Bethsaida and Chorazin saw miracles. Not all of them will be saved. I was set free and am not a slave to the Torah.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

They do a lot of interesting detective work and make educated assumptions, but the past and history are not the same thing.

Are you exempting Biblical accounts from that distinction between educated assumptions and history?

 

[trophy33]

Flavius Josephus of the Antiquities of the Jews — Book I
Chapter 3.
Noah learned, that the earth was become clear of (18) The place of descent: for the Ark being saved in that place, its remains are shewed there by the inhabitants to this day.

6. Now all the writers of Barbarian Histories make mention of this flood, and of this Ark: among whom is Berosus the Chaldean. For when he is describing the circumstances of the flood, he goes on thus: “It is said there is still some part of this ship in Armenia, at the mountain of the Cordyæans; and that some people carry off pieces of the bitumen: which they take away, and use chiefly as amulets, for the averting of mischiefs.” Hieronymus the Egyptian also, who wrote the Phenician Antiquities; and Mnaseas, and a great many more make mention of the same. Nay Nicolaus of Damascus, in his ninety sixth Book, hath a particular relation about them: where he speaks thus: “There is a great mountain in Armenia, over Minyas, called Baris: upon which it is reported that many who fled at the time of the deluge were saved: and that one who was carried in an Ark, came on shore upon the top of it; and that the remains of the timber were a great while preserved: this might be the man about whom Moses, the Legislator of the Jews, wrote.”

It does not sound too credible.

Basically, Josephus says that somebody else says that he heard somebody else said it.

But thanks for the quote.

 

[lismore]

Are you exempting Biblical accounts from that distinction between educated assumptions and history?

Hello there. The past and History are two different things, History is writings about the past. In the same way I would draw a distinction between the bible on one hand and the work of authors writing their opinions about the bible on the other. Kind Regards