Myth, Fact, Parable

Laconia79 · Mar 14, 2022

The flood, the flood story was around 1000 years before abraham existed. There have been massive floods in human history. For a stone age people it would be the end of the world. Tells of those floods would have been emebleshed over the centries. Now according to the bible the flood happened no less that 4000 years ago and no longer than 5000 years ago, if you got technical and used all the biblical information 4300 years ago is the closest. Next the story say the waters were 20 feet over the tallest mountain even then Everest would have probably held that record. If you follow the bible exactly the flood would have covered the earth several miles above the surface. Now here is the real kicker the oldest human settlements and cities go back 10s of thousands of years. Such a flood have destroyed any evidence of the existance of humanity before the flood. Lets go to biology and the effects of inbreeding . The largest problem is many of the bible stories especially the flood story do not hold up under the Archeological, Geological, and Biological microscope. I can believe in god and I can believe the bible is book that is part history and part parable and myth. That does not threaten my belief in god, because I belive that Archeology, Astronomy, Biology, Geology all the sciences prove the existance of god. I believe the univeres is far to complex to have came about by chance. But I also know the anciet civilizations were ignorant of Archeology, Atronomy, Biology, Geology all the sciences as we know it today. I know the biblical flood story did not happen because there is no evidence of it...absolutly none. Now has every part of the planet been under water yes that is caused buy earthquake volcanoes tsunamies and floods. I swear if there was a line in the bible saying 1+1=3 and we know it equals two a large portion of Christianity would argue it. I am not threatened buy scientce and from were I am sitting many Christians are threatened by Archeology, Atronomy, Biology, Geology all the sciences.

Carl Emerson · Mar 14, 2022

If the ark is found at say 14000 feet on Ararat what then?

Halbhh · Mar 14, 2022

Laconia79 said:
Next the story say 20 feet over the tallest mountain even then Everest would have probably held that record.

I believe this kind of idea comes from a non-listening reading where a person has decided ahead of time what they want to think and then their doctrine filters/interprets the text, instead of just listening....so that they end up with useless ideas like that, instead of listening to the text.

But the text does at least suggest that for someone on the ark, all the world under the heavens (under the sky) they could see out to the far horizon was flooded -- all the world they knew at the minimum -- and that whenever they took a depth reading (with rope and a weight), they got at least that depth. So that all the mountains (hills) they knew about were submerged.

Only water in every direction, always, day after day, endlessly.

And maybe more, possibly, but that's a trivial side question unrelated to the meanings in the text.

To get the real meanings on the text, one needs to read humbly with a listening attitude, so that one doesn't ignore the shocking wordings of the verses right at the beginning, those first 6 or 7 verses starting at chapter 6 verse 5...

Those shocking wordings in verse 5, verse 6, verse 7....

If a person is listening, then the last thing they'd care about is the triviality of which mountains (like ones they never got close to) (or just local hills instead) where under how much water, even while it was out to the most distant horizon visually seeable or further.

What matters is what the real messages you are supposed to hear in the text are saying, about you, and me. Us.

SavedByGrace3 · Mar 14, 2022

The Flood did in fact occur. The questions that rise are when, where, and how.
Regardless, like the OPer, none of these questions (or the truthful answers to those questions) are going to affect my faith whatsoever. I am still going to believe in God, the Father, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, the Gospel, and all things of the Faith. I still believe God created all things, there was a flood, and all the OT facts.
It is like the UFO thing. People say the Gov is hiding info about UFOs because if it were released the religions of the world would go crazy and billions of people would suddenly fall away from their faith and there would be chaos. To that I say "malarky." If ET is out there, that is fine with me. Does not affect my faith in the least. Same with the creation and flood stories. Like the kids say: "Whatever."
We are good!

d taylor · Mar 14, 2022

-

The Flood happen just as God tells it in The Bible.

What else that is recorded by man about a flood or floods is an attempt at uninspired recording and retelling of this event. Of course being that these are a product of just man, they will contain inaccuracies.

So if you want the fairy tale versions, go to science or human recorded versions. If you want the real deal inspired recorded event go to The Bible.

johnjanuary1984 · Mar 14, 2022

Look up Ron Wyatt. He found Noah's Ark.

Carl Emerson · Mar 14, 2022

johnjanuary1984 said:
Look up Ron Wyatt. He found Noah's Ark.

I dont think so...

It is on Ararat at about 14000 feet embedded in a glacier.

johnjanuary1984 · Mar 14, 2022

Carl Emerson said:
I dont think so...

It is on Ararat at about 14000 feet embedded in a glacier.

Genesis 8:4 says the ark came to rest on the mountains (plural) of ararat.

Halbhh · Mar 14, 2022

johnjanuary1984 said:
Genesis 8:4 says the ark came to rest on the mountains (plural) of ararat.

Carl Emerson said:
I dont think so...

It is on Ararat at about 14000 feet embedded in a glacier.

johnjanuary1984 said:
Look up Ron Wyatt. He found Noah's Ark.

And supposing it was never found? Would that make you stop believing?

I'm really asking, because it matters. It's non trivial whether you believe. And I'm wondering if the basis of your faith is that the ark is on some part of the mountains of Ararat.

Is that the basis of why you believe in God? I hope it is not!

Akita Suggagaki · Mar 14, 2022

The flood motif is pretty universal.

Flood myth - Wikipedia.

Carl Emerson · Mar 14, 2022

johnjanuary1984 said:
Genesis 8:4 says the ark came to rest on the mountains (plural) of ararat.

What is your point?

Carl Emerson · Mar 14, 2022

Halbhh said:
And supposing it was never found? Would that make you stop believing?

I'm really asking, because it matters. It's non trivial whether you believe. And I'm wondering if the basis of your faith is that the ark is on some part of the mountains of Ararat.

Is that the basis of why you believe in God? I hope it is not!

It wouldn't affect me at all but there is good evidence that it is there and I guess the time for it's revealing is not quite yet.

Halbhh · Mar 14, 2022

Carl Emerson said:
It wouldn't affect me at all but there is good evidence that it is there and I guess the time for it's revealing is not quite yet.

It would be very good that if the ark were never found it would not affect your faith.

If a clear proof of God were found before Christ returns, it would invalidate things in the New Testament central in our faith.

"Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see."

The faith God wants from humans isn't to see (evidence, etc.) and thus believe (or a better word for that would be 'know' instead of believe), to first look for proof and then 'believe' because one has seen.

Instead, our Lord said God wants this:
John 20:29 Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Or even more pointedly: "Stop doubting and believe!" (verse 27)

So, it's not to search for evidence and then come to 'faith' -- that would not be a 'faith' that saves! Instead, we are to believe on Christ Jesus -- with faith, before seeing -- for salvation.

And that saving faith is then faith in Christ, and thus in His words.
Romans 10:17 Consequently, faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

johnjanuary1984 · Mar 14, 2022

Carl Emerson said:
What is your point?

My point is the ark doesn't necessarily have to be on Mount Ararat.

johnjanuary1984 · Mar 14, 2022

Halbhh said:
It would be very good that if the ark were never found it would not affect your faith.

If a clear proof of God were found before Christ returns, it would invalidate things in the New Testament central in our faith.

"Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see."

The faith God wants from humans isn't to see (evidence, etc.) and thus believe (or a better word for that would be 'know' instead of believe), to first look for proof and then 'believe' because one has seen.

Instead, our Lord said God wants this:
John 20:29 Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Or even more pointedly: "Stop doubting and believe!" (verse 27)

So, it's not to search for evidence and then come to 'faith' -- that would not be a 'faith' that saves! Instead, we are to believe on Christ Jesus -- with faith, before seeing -- for salvation.

Are you saying Thomas was not saved ???

Halbhh · Mar 14, 2022

This is why a discussion about the particulars of the Flood and the ark and such can never be a basis for saving faith.

Halbhh · Mar 14, 2022

johnjanuary1984 said:
Are you saying Thomas was not saved ???

We probably all of us that have faith, even 100% of us, believe Thomas will be in heaven.
We should never dare to paint others as believing Christ failed with Thomas, when He said instead:

John 17:12 While I was with them, I protected and preserved them by Your name, the name You gave Me. Not one of them has been lost, except the son of destruction, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.

And more: we should also obey Romans 14

I think the real danger in these Flood debates people get caught up in is when they end up breaking Romans 14:1 Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on his opinions.

Halbhh · Mar 14, 2022

Carl Emerson said:
It wouldn't affect me at all but there is good evidence that it is there and I guess the time for it's revealing is not quite yet.

Suppose Ellicott gets right the meaning in the text:

Genesis 8:4 On the seventeenth day of the seventh month, the ark came to rest on the mountains of Ararat.
Genesis 8:5 And the waters continued to recede until the tenth month, and on the first day of the tenth month the tops of the mountains became visible.

Ellicott's commentary for verse 4:
"Ararat. ...
...But the inspired narrative says that it rested "upon the mountains of Ararat," upon some chain of hills there, and seventy-three days afterwards Noah found himself surrounded by an amphitheatre of mountains, the word used in Genesis 8:5 being emphatic, and signifying "the tops of the mountains became distinctly visible," and not that they had just begun to emerge. For, doubtless, after so vast a flood, mists and vapours would for a long time prevail, and shut out the surrounding world from Noah's view. . . ."

Which seems to allow for example the ark to settle merely within visual sight of distant mountain tops which were not visible due to fogs, until quite a bit later in time after the ark settles (73 days is quite a while). Ergo on merely distant foothills and not on actual tall mountains (mountain slopes which would be quite a problem (or fatal) for elephants!).

So, while we can observe such details, it's not really the actual intended key message to us in the story. The story instead is meant to confront us, you and me, about ourselves. In chapter 6.

We need to be able to see and hear verse 5, verse 6 and such, and get those crucial messages. It's why Christ came to save us.

lismore · Mar 14, 2022

Laconia79 said:
Now here is the real kicker the oldest human settlements and cities go back 10s of thousands of years.

Some authors, based on their detective work and interpretation of data, might claim that. But that is not the same as it actually being so. So far no archaeologist has dug up an ancient city and found a plaque saying 'built in 10,000BC!'. Kind Regards

Halbhh · Mar 14, 2022

lismore said:
Some authors, based on their detective work and interpretation of data, might claim that. But that is not the same as it actually being so. So far no archaeologist has dug up an ancient city and found a plaque saying 'built in 10,000BC!'. Kind Regards

Reminds me of this: 2 Peter 3:8 Beloved, do not let this one thing escape your notice: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

It's a good thing it's not believing this or that about the age of Earth that saves anyone, not even 1 single soul, but believing in Christ, as He said: anyone that "hears my word" (listens to His Words in the gospels, just like in your quote below your posts), and doesn't ignore things He said, but puts them into action, Matthew 7:24-27.

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