Mystical Side of Eastern Orthodox (And other ?s)

[MKJ]

Would I be right in thinking OP that part of what you are asking is "what is the purpose of liturgy"?

 

[Etsi]

This might explain some about the Divine Liturgy. But it's rather dry compared to the actual experience. Introduction to the Divine Liturgy — Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America

When we are in the sanctuary, it is as though you are in heaven on earth. It's a special place of worship. It is a place to be reverent and the time is holy. The icons on the walls remind us that the Saints that are no longer in life are still there with us worshiping and praying alongside us, just as we are. The icon of Christ, Ga-lo-ne-dv, is over us, on the ceiling. The candles burning represent and are our prayers going to Heaven. The incense is as the sweet presence of the Spirit. All these things have more than one and deeper meaning. So what I tell you here is barely a glimpse and barely an explanation.

 

[Thekla]

I will agree with those who have posted; 'understanding' the Liturgy is not primarily an intellectual task. Although the Liturgy can be discussed and described, the Liturgy is experiential.

God created man as a whole; it is the fall that resulted in what we might experience as 'division' (body and spirit). We were created as a whole, and the resurrection at the end of time will include the person as whole. A restoration of our created state, perfected.

Just as Christianity, "the Way", is experiential also the Liturgy. During the Liturgy, we rest from the struggles we experience being 'in the world but not of it'. Man was not made for the Sabbath, but the Sabbath for man. Likewise the Liturgy, where we experience and foretaste the eighth day.

God, Who created and loves us, feeds our whole person. Central to the Liturgy is the Eucharist, where we are fed on Christ literally/spiritually.

The Liturgy, as the primary corporate worship of the Holy Trinity, feeds nourishes and 'trains' our entire person; all our senses, our body entire, our spirit, and thus restores our soul. It is said that for Orthodox Christians, with Christ at the center, the entire week is lived in preparation for the Liturgy.

This may not be very precise, and I'm sorry if it is not helpful or perhaps aside your question.

 

[Knee V]

LogosRhema,

Thank you for your time here at TAW. It looks like your main question here hasn't been answered. I'll see if I can do anything with that.

If I'm reading you correctly, you're asking why we do things "liturgically", right?

The first answer that I have I suspect that you probably won't find very satisfying, as a lot of people don't. But although it may not be what many would consider to be a "good" answer, I think that it can, nonetheless, serve as a stepping stone onto better answers. And that answer is that we have a liturgical worship "style" because that is what God gave us.

I'm sure that I don't have to cite Old Testament examples for you, as I'm sure you've read enough from Exodus and other places where tabernacle/temple worship is laid out and described, with the various prayers and incense and the alter and all that stuff. And I suspect that citing OT examples would probably not mean much to you, as we're no longer under that covenant.

**As a side note, in this post so far I've made at least two or three assumptions about you, only because the people that I've encountered who are in similar shoes as you have that mindset that I've assumed about you. Please do correct me if I have figured falsely about you.**

In the New Testament, however, we find the first generation of Christians worshiping basically the same way. They still met on the Sabbath in the synagogues for the prayers and Scripture readings. It was only after they were expelled from the synagogues that they had to meet elsewhere, often in each others' homes.

In Acts 2, after the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentacost, when the first group of converts had repented, been baptized and received the seal of the Holy Spirit, "They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers." Acts 2:42. That is basically what the liturgy is, all four of those elements, and the first Christians were doing that from the get-go.

Acts 2:46-47, "Day by day, as they spent much time together in the temple, they broke bread at home and ate their food with glad and generous hearts, praising God and having the goodwill of all the people. And day by day the Lord added to their number those who were being saved."

This shows the pattern that the first Christians would worship in the Temple regularly, being a part of the liturgical life there. Then they would go to their homes and "break bread" (i.e., communion), something that was uniquely christian which couldn't be done in the Temple. And that is the pattern for the Liturgy to this day. The first half is very similar to what it would have been in the Temple/synagogue: prayers, psalms, petitions, Scripture readings, etc. The second half of the Liturgy is preparing us to "break bread" together. In it are various prayers and hymns, symbols of christian unity (e.g., the Creed, which is the symbol of faith - "symbol" meaning something that brings things together), the Our Father prayer, communion itself, etc. The first Christians were doing the exact same thing.

So God gave it to the Israelites, and we see the first generation of Christians conducting themselves the exact same way.

To paraphrase what you said previously, "So it's ancient - so what?"

That's a fair question. Part of that answer is that that is what it's like in heaven.

We're given two glimpses in Scripture of what Heavenly worship looks like. One is in Isaiah 6. 6:3, "And one [seraph] called to another and said, 'Holy, Holy, Holy is the LORD of hosts; the whole earth is full of his glory.'" 6:6-7, "Then one of the seraphs flew to me, holding a live coal that had been taken from the altar with a pair of tongs. The seraph touched my mouth with it and said: 'Now that this has touched your lips, your guilt has departed and your sin is blotted out.'"

This one from Isaiah is brief and doesn't reveal a whole lot, other than that there are angels attending God who are continuously praising him, there is some kind of altar with live coals on it, and smoke (incense) fills the house.

We also get a glimpse in the book of Revelation, and it has a lot more in it. I won't quote all of it (this post is already getting long enough), but I'll point out a few features. Chapters 4-8 are packed with a lot of stuff. Much of it reflects what Isaiah saw in Isaiah 6. We also see more than just angels in heaven; we also see people (e.g., the 24 elders). The angels are holding censors (objects in which incense is put). And the prayers from the people and from the angels are more elaborate in Revelation.

So liturgical worship is also what is done in heaven. So when we worship liturgically, we are joining heaven in its worship of God.

And one last thing. We, as fallen people, are prone to stray and we're easily deceived, especially since "Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light." We are on a path to knowing God intimately and fully. One thing that "liturgical" worship (and really, a liturgical life - it extends outside the four walls of a church building) does it to set up boundaries so that, as we're drawing closer to God, we're not led into knowing and communing with something/someone other than God. It serves as something like barriers on the side of a road so that as we're traveling to our destination (knowing God), we don't drive off the road and start traveling to the wrong destination. It helps to form our prayers and our hearts so that we're knowing the same God as has been known by the saints before us, and as He has revealed Himself. God gave us the Liturgy so that we are best able to know Him according to how He has revealed Himself when He became incarnate in the person of Jesus.

In summary, liturgy is what God has given His people. It's how the first Christians worshiped. It's how heaven worships God. It's what best keeps us on the right path of truly knowing God and arriving at the experience of St Isaac the Syrian that Christos Anesti pointed out, and not a counterfeit.

Hope that helps.

 

[Monica child of God 1]

Hello ,

This is not going to be a thorough post 'cuz I have a paper due today (!) but I did want to offer a few things:

Why liturgy?

1) it is Biblical--The book of psalms that you find in the middle of the Old Testament is a liturgical worship book for singing and prayer. The people of God used it in their corporate worship. We carry on that Holy Tradition by keeping the Psalter at the heart of all of our services. It is what the people of God have always done and these psalms are inspired by God. Why change that?

2) it is orderly--the Apostle Paul says our worship, if it is to be pleasing to God, must be orderly. God is not a god of confusion.

And really, all Christian denominations have some type of liturgy. You have a song book right? And the song, prayer and sermon parts of the service sort of show up in the same places every week right? And you know what you are supposed to do as a congregant and the leader knows what he/she is supposed to do as a leader, right?

3) it mirrors the worship in heaven and actually takes us into heaven--

Here is where we begin to get to explicitly mystical side of things. Liturgy is going on all the time in heaven. When we sing "Holy, holy, holy" or "Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal" we are actually joining the worship in heaven. Our cherubic hymn says:

"Let us who mystically represent the Cherubim and who sing the thrice-holy hymn to the life-creating Trinity,
now lay aside all earthly cares,
that we may receive the King of All, who comes invisibly upborne by the angelic host.
Alleluia, alleluia, alleluia."

This takes place just before the bread and wine a prepared for communion. Now read this passage from Isaiah chapter 6:


In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord, high and exalted, seated on a throne; and the train of his robe filled the temple. Above him were seraphim, each with six wings: With two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying. And they were calling to one another:

“Holy, holy, holy is the LORD Almighty;
the whole earth is full of his glory.”

At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook and the temple was filled with smoke.

“Woe to me!” I cried. “I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the LORD Almighty.”
Then one of the seraphim flew to me with a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with tongs from the altar. With it he touched my mouth and said, “See, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away and your sin atoned for.”

This is just one example of how liturgy takes us into heaven. There are more.


4) it allows us to pray together in one voice--The Apostle Paul exhorts us to speak to each other in "psalms, hymns and spiritual songs." This is a common language that we are to share as Christians. We just use the ones that not only connect us to each other, but to our forefathers and foremothers as well. It is thrilling to read writings from more than 1,000 years ago and feel a connection to Christians of that time because you share the same worship language and worship experience. The communion of the saints is real and important to us.

Also, because we share this common worship, when I pray my prayers at home in the morning and evening, I know that there are Orthodox Christians around the world praying with me, using the same words. That is powerful to me.

Those are a few thoughts. I highly recommend this article to read Heavenly Worship

M.

 

[cobweb]

I'm bookmarking this so I can give it more time when I get back from work tonight.

My parents left the house Church movement this year. I spent a good chunk of my childhood in them.

 

[Macarius]

Greetings my lovely brothers and sisters in Christ!

Welcome to TAW, and glory to God.

I was just curious of the mysticism behind EO, I've read and heard of the RC side of this, but what of the EO?

It runs deep - very deep. Though there are certainly intellectuals in Orthodoxy, at its core it is not an intellectual religion. As Vladimir Losky (a contemporary theologian) said: all theology is mystical theology. In the West, sometimes there is a division between the 'mystics' and the 'theologians' - in the East, the mystics ARE the theologians. Though not universally the case, the vast majority of our spiritual and dogmatic theology, as well as our liturgical / worship practices, come from the Monasteries and Monastics - from our mystics.

Indeed, we are ALL called to mysticism. Mysticism and ascesis. Matt 6 doesn't say if you fast, but WHEN you fast. Nor if you pray, but WHEN you pray. Not if you do charity, but WHEN. These are the three arms of the ascetic life (and one arm of the mystic life): prayer, fasting, and alms. Fasting includes more than food - it is the fasting / abstinence of the moral life, and from things like pride (which we fast from through obedience).

Prayer is the first link of the mystic life. In prayer, the inner eye of the heart (called the "nous" in Greek / Scripture; a difficult word to translate) reaches out towards God to seek His presence.

Prayer, for us, is NOT about asking God for things. We do that, to be certain, but generally in some derivative of "Thy Will be Done" (or "Lord have mercy," which has the same meaning as "mercy" means "compassion" and God's will is love). Rather, prayer is about entering God's presence. We do that in several layers.

First, by the prayer of the lips. Here, our body (through our lips and voice) begins to seek God's presence.

Second, through the prayer of the mind. Here, our thoughts (also part of the body, belonging to the brain; but transcending the body as well) come into conformity with the words of the prayer. In meaning it, we open another part of ourselves to the presence of God.

Third, and most difficult to achieve, there is the prayer of the heart. By this we do NOT mean prayer of the emotions (the popular meaning of "heart"). The emotions are part of the mind and correspond to the prayer of the mind. Why is this? Because emotions are spurred first and foremost by the experiences of our senses, and are carried out in the chemical processes of the brain. They are a (very good) part of our (very good) physical nature given to us by God. But they are NOT the true heart (the "nous" in Greek). This is the breath of life given by God to us. You could think of it like "soul" but that carries a dualist sense that we don't agree with (a body-soul dichotomy). Instead, the nous is, in us, the reflection of God - God's image. It is our "hypostasis" - our true and inner identity kept secret in God (as spoken of in Revelations). It is the "mind" spoken of in Romans (the "changing of the mind" St. Paul speaks of).

In true, inner prayer of the heart, the nous-hypostasis (our true self) is finally awoken by unity with the grace of God. The mind "descends" into the heart (a difficult experience to describe), and the words of the prayer fade to the background or disappear entirely (why would I need to ask God for His presence when I'm immersed in it?), and the heart beats as one with God - love reaching out to Love, deep to Deep, glory to Glory.

This cannot be done, however, without a few other things occuring:
1) Repentance: If we are not where God is, we cannot know Him. Sin removes us from God, and therefore from the ability to know His presence. If we are in sin, our hearts are clouded / damaged, and we know, instead, only existential lonliness. The world appears to be merely physical, as our sensitivity to the divine is lost, and we descend into nihilistic materialism (the spirit of our age).

2) Purification: Alongside repentance (changing our behavior) we have to eliminate the ROOT of that behavior: the animal passions (greed, lust, pride, wrath, etc.). We must mercilessly root out ANY and ALL things that control us and remove from us the natural liberty givent to us by Christ. Liberty, in the Christian sense, is not AUTONOMY (far from it) - it is liberation from our enslavement to the passions; liberation BY Christ FOR Christ.

Christ, through His Church, has provided a TON of tools for this.

Foremost is the Holy Spirit, descendending since Pentecost, that inspires the heart towards repentance and enables all else in the spiritual life.

Second is His own revelation of God - by knowing the Truth, faith is empowered and enabled as, in knowing about God we see His trustworthiness. This is the seed of faith that can grow into a saving-faith in Christian maturity. The fullest revelation of God - the fullest expression of His Word - is the silence of the cross and the empty tomb of the resurrection. In this absolute stillness, this absolute silence, the fullest extent of the love of God is revealed, and faith is born. But this revelation also extends back into Christ's teachings, and further to the prophets who foretold Him, and it extends forwards into Christ's continuing teaching within the Church through the Holy Spirit - which continues up to today, and which always points us back towards Christ.

Third is His own presence, which gives us hope. We would have no chance of unity with God were it not for the Incarnation, which broke down the barrier between Creator and created, infinite and finite. The Incarnation was completed in the tomb and resurrection, where God united Himself in Christ to the deepest and darkest parts of our depravity, becoming sin and death for us - so that even when we suffer and die we are NOT disunited from God, but rather die WITH Him, and suffer WITH Him. As life itself, God enters death and overcomes it with His glory. Now, there is NOTHING that can separate us from God. The only questions are whether we will be aware of God's presence, and whether it will be joy to us or the hell of judgment.

Fourth, the tools of ascesis. Fasting & obedience give us tools to fight the passions and pride which so easily entangle. We don't do these to 'earn' anything from God, but to engage in the warfare against our false self - our old man. They are tools of purification. Abstinence from things which control us (even things that aren't sinful) is also important. We must learn to say "no" to ourselves. Ascesis, though, can be its own addiction - and we are with the bridegroom, so we do not fast continuously or legalistically (as the Jews do); rather, for about half the year we have days of fasting, and the other half are days of feasting. And our fasting is itself a joy, not a morbid self-loathing, because we don't fast to punish the body, but to constrain it for Christ. Ascesis isn't law; it is LIBERATION in Christ, and therefore the brightest sadness.

3) Illumination: having been purified (and we never really stop that process), we are united to Christ's death and resurrection through baptism, and we recieve the Holy Spirit through chrismation (our own Pentecost). This illuminates us (reawakens the nous), as ONLY God's grace could do this. The Orthodox Church does not limit God - He may reawaken someone by any means He chooses - but we know that He does so through these sacraments, as they have been revealed in Scripture and confirmed in the lives of countless saints in history (and today).

4) Unification: having passed through Christ's death and resurrection, and united to the Holy Spirit, we are now open. Emptied of our false self by purification, we are open. Being emptied of the mud that has filled us up for so long, wiped clean by sacrament, we are made ready to recieve Christ. This happens first and foremost through Eucharist. Why? Several reasons - one is that Christ has ordained it so. Second, because we ARE a body - and Christ came INTO flesh, became flesh, to make the material world THE vehicle for conveying His saving presence. Our body recieves Christ's body in the Eucharist, uniting us TO His body. And in this, our mind and nous are united to Him as well. Our image of God is united to THE image of God. Christ's words in John six ring true: whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me and I in Him.

To be certain, though, it extends out FROM the Eucharist to our whole life. We are commanded to pray continuously by St. Paul. Our whole LIFE is to become sacrament (a physical sign of God's presence and vehicle for HIS grace and holiness to the world).

I'll try to reply to the rest in a bit, but this is a long post as-is.

Your brother in Christ,
Macarius

 

[inconsequential]

I'm not a deep thinker and certainly not a theologian but I will briefly relate my experience with the Divine Liturgy and other services. I became a Christian in 1992, started Baptist then became involved in the charismatic movement as I searched for something deeper. I've ran the aisles, spoken in tongues, given "prophetic" messages, been slain in the spirit, etc. but I can unequivocably say that I have experienced God much more fully in the reverent beauty of the Divine Liturgy than I ever did in the most emotional revival meeting as a pentecostal/charismatic Protestant.

We truly do step outside of time and space and worship with the Saints and the angels in Heaven then we recieve Christ, Himself, into our bodies through a Mystery that surpasses understanding in the Eucharist. I have witnessed and experienced miracles, some spectacular and some small and personal. But the greatest irony is that the devil has proven to me that Orthodoxy is the path that will lead me to Christ by the sheer amount of effort he has put into trying to push, pull, goad, trick and seduce me to stray off the path.

I will echo what several have said, "Come and see."

 

[ArmyMatt]

well, for starters, welcome to TAW!

I think you are asking why we do things liturgically. well, for one, this was the way of worship that God outlined for His people in both the tabernacle and in the Temple, because it was a form and shadow of the way of worship that the angels did, and now the angels and the saints do, in heaven.

speaking as far as the New Testament is concerned, this is how Christ worshiped when He walked the earth, and this is how the Apostles continued to worship in Acts. the Christian writings that follow directly after the NT writers all comment on worship being liturgical. if this is our Jewish and Christian past, and our heavenly future (God willing), it makes sense that today's worship would follow and be liturgical as well. when one sees how the Tabernacle, Temple, Heaven and Divine Liturgy all look the same it seems pretty clear that this is the worship that God likes.

now, as far as mysticism goes, mysticism is not something that can be really defended or argued on a forum like this. I could tell you when we celebrate Easter God's presence is so thick it's almost like you can grab it by the handfull, but even that would not do a mystical experience justice. you gotta do what the folks have been saying: when you are ready, come and see.

hope this helps!

 

[E.C.]

Welcome to TAW!

The Orthodox Church has worshiped Liturgically ever since the days of the Apostles when St. James wrote the first Divine Liturgy - which was about six hours long. In the days of St. Basil the Great (3rd or 4th century) the Liturgy was shortened to two hours. A century later and St. John Chrysostom shortened it to an hour and a half which is what is used for about 90% of the Church year.

Why do we worship with things like icons? To keep our focus on God.

 

[Andrew21091]

Why do we worship with things like icons? To keep our focus on God.

They remind us that we are not ever praying alone. When we are surrounded by the icons of the Saints, we remember that they are always praying to God for us.

 

[Dorothea]

I understand it is central, and your claim of "ancient traditions because they are true". According to whom? Because of a long history? The world has a long history of running from God, an ancient way, does it make it right? No!

More detail, I do not accept traditions based on "well its just the way we have always done this". Digging deeper than that.

Hello, Logos. Pardon me for butting into this convo, but I felt the need to answer this. There are only two types of traditions mentioned in the Bible - Christ's Tradition and the traditions of men. The EOC follows Christ Traditions since the beginning. Any other traditions are traditions of men that are warned to stay clear of mentioned also in the bible.

 

[Dorothea]

I'm still seeking to understand why EO is liturgical. Just because a claim of an "ancient way" means nothing to me and should to most everyone. Deeper details.

This is why the EO is liturgical:

The early Christian Church came into being as a liturgical church because Jews worshipped liturgically. The New Testament records numerous instances of liturgical worship, which range from pure Jewish practices (such as Peter and John going to the Temple because it was the hour of prayer) to Christian liturgical worship (which confirms that the early Christians met and worshipped following Jewish liturgical practices, and added to them the rite of the Eucharist).


Many present-day Christians do not understand why the worship services of the "liturgical churches" are so different and so structured. A common assumption is that in the New Testament, worship was spontaneous. However, worship in the early Christian Church, like Judaism, followed a specific order or form. This "order" has its very roots in the Scriptures. In fact, all of Christianity worshipped this way for 1500 years; the Eastern Orthodox Church and Western Roman Church have been worshiping this way — more or less unchanged — for nearly 2000 years.

Two words need to be kept in mind when one first experiences liturgical worship: origin and changelessness.


[FONT=arial,helvetica,sanserif]Origin[/FONT]
[FONT=arial,helvetica,sanserif][/FONT]
[FONT=arial,helvetica,sanserif]Early Christian worship had an origin: Jewish worship form and practice. The early disciples did not create new worship practices any more than did Jesus Christ. They all prayed as Jews and worshipped as Jews. The earliest Christians were Jews who recognized and accepted Jesus Christ as the promised Messiah, and the worship that they practiced was liturgical because Jewish worship was liturgical. For this reason we see in the New Testament that the early Christians continued their Jewish worship practices, even while they added some uniquely Christian components. The most central new content was the sacrament of the Eucharist (or Communion) as instituted by Christ at the Last Supper. However, in the early Church this was celebrated as a separate service for many years. [/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sanserif]This living continuity of worship from Temple to Synagogue and into the early Christian Church is why there is a highly developed Christian liturgical order in use by the end of the first century, within sixty years of Christ's resurrection.[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sanserif][/FONT]
[FONT=arial,helvetica,sanserif]Changelessness[/FONT]
[FONT=arial,helvetica,sanserif][/FONT]
[FONT=arial,helvetica,sanserif]Perhaps one of the most striking and unique things about liturgical Christianity, and especially in this age of rapid change and even change for its own sake, is its permanence and changelessness. This is especially true for the Eastern Orthodox Church to this day. This was also true of the Western Roman Church until the past century when the reforms of Vatican II significantly altered the liturgical form of the Roman mass. It has been said that one of the most distinctive characteristics of the Orthodox Church is "its determination to remain loyal to the past, its sense of living continuity with the church of ancient times "[1]. This commitment to protecting the Gospel and keeping its message and praise to God the same stems from the conviction that the faith was delivered to Christians by Jesus Christ. If Christians are going to be "apostolic," then they must belong to the same Church that Christ founded. That Church began in the first century. As one Orthodox scholar points out, "there is a sense in which all Christians must become Christ's contemporaries..." He goes on to assert, "the twentieth century is not an absolute norm, the apostolic age is."[2] [/FONT]


[FONT=arial,helvetica,sanserif]Present-day Christians, then, have to acknowledge the origins of Christian worship, and bear the responsibility of changelessness. C.S. Lewis recognized the changelessness of the liturgy as an extremely important and very valuable characteristic for practical reasons. He went so far as to say it should be like an old shoe; something that fits, something that doesn't have to be broken in all the time, something you don't even notice is there. He concludes these observations by saying "The perfect church service would be one we were almost unaware of; our attention would have been on God."[3] [/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sanserif]The musical forms of early Christian worship were initially Jewish, such as the chanting of Psalms. As the Gentile missions began, Christians began incorporating Greek music forms. The language of worship became almost universally Greek, which was the common language of the Roman Empire, and more and more Greek music forms and theory came into use in the Church. Within twenty to forty years, the Christian worship service was a composite of Jewish and Greek liturgical music forms, following the basic shape of Jewish Synagogue and Temple worship. Within a hundred years, as the Church spread across the Roman Empire and most of its members were Gentiles who spoke Greek and lived in a Greek culture, most of the musical style and theory had become Greek. It still retained some Jewish form and content such as chanting. After the legalization of Christianity in the early 4th century, this music form and style developed into Byzantine music, the Church's first formal music form. Byzantine music was very broadly and consistently used throughout the Church through the seventh and eighth centuries. [/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sanserif]Although Greek music was predominant, it was not the only form in use. In Egypt, there was a decidedly different form, as was the case in other parts of the Empire. However, most of the Empire used Greek as its common language, and the Byzantine music became almost universal throughout the Church. The two earliest Christian hymns, "O Gladsome Light" (referred to by St. Justin in about 150 A.D.) (See Sacred Sample), and a "Hymn to the Holy Trinity" (from Oxyrrhyncus, Egypt, probably mid-4th century) (See Sacred Sample), are decidedly Greek in musical form. [/FONT]
[FONT=arial,helvetica,sanserif][/FONT]
[FONT=arial,helvetica,sanserif]The term "early Christianity" generally refers to the time prior to the legalization of the faith by the Emperor Constantine. Theological development occurred during this time, as well. As the Christian Church worked through the implications of what had occurred in the life and ministry of Jesus Christ, and as they grew in their knowledge and understanding under the leadership of the Apostles such as James, John and Paul, their worship began to incorporate these new understandings. For instance, the earliest church had two Sabbath services: a "Synagogue-type" service and a separate communion service. Over time these were combined. Another page in this section describes Worship in the Early Church, documenting the processes and influences by which Christian worship became formalized, and how the various rites in use locally became standardized throughout the Roman and Byzantine Empire. A further page details later developments in Christian worship as theology and doctrine became defined, and external cultural influences were exerted on the Christian Church.[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sanserif]Liturgica.com | Liturgics | Early Christian Liturgics[/FONT]

 

[musicluvr83]

I'm still seeking to understand why EO is liturgical. Just because a claim of an "ancient way" means nothing to me and should to most everyone. Deeper details.

"Deeper details"... When you have time on your hands this is a real good read on liturgics, etc, by +Archbishop Averky (Taushev): Part IV It's pretty deep.

 

[Giantsbran1227]

Greetings my lovely brothers and sisters in Christ!

I was just curious of the mysticism behind EO, I've read and heard of the RC side of this, but what of the EO?

As well, I have a hard time digesting the liturgy tradition, from my own experience in the Spirit, He has in no way led me in that direction. (and I'm not dismissing it as worthless btw). I'm just trying to understand how much is truly true or if its just tradition. EO by far interests me the most to study of all the denominations out there.

Right now, I'm living it up and loving the glory in a recent glory movement, if its a movement at all but awareness being stumbled upon. Prominent speakers such as John Crowder, Benjamin Dunn, Matt Ford, Matt Spinks, Brandon Barthrop are some. I do not consider them leaders but a speakers for this current awareness being revealed. I actually enjoy Christ in a house assembly so full of the love of Christ. Just a background for you lovables.

Please do share your own experiences in EO, I genuinely wish to learn more.

EO is very enticing. Once you really study it, you will be immediately attracted towards joining. When an American accustomed to going to a service that feels like a rock concert with a sermon somewhere tied in the middle, finds Orthodoxy.... it is like a kid walking into a candy store who has never tasted sugar before. Just remember while all that sugar tastes great for a long time, eventually your body will crash.

One thing I wish I did was wait longer before my chrismation into the church. It only took me 3 months. Others on here have waited 2 years and some even more. Many report feeling overwhelm with the spirt of God upon finding Orthodoxy, just because of it's radical difference's in comparison to Western Christianity. However these feelings soon wear off once you get more accustomed to it all, and many report feeling even like they can no longer find God. I went through this, through God's help got out of it, but it is something to keep in mind. So again, take your time. I can't stress that enough. I know within my heart that this is the true church of God himself. Best of luck on your travels.

 

[LogosRhema]

I'm rather bogged down, dead week and next week is finals week. I'll respond as soon as I can. Loving the responses! I'll read and read these again before I respond with thoughts and questions.

In Christ,

Zen

 

[Macarius]

As well, I have a hard time digesting the liturgy tradition, from my own experience in the Spirit, He has in no way led me in that direction. (and I'm not dismissing it as worthless btw). I'm just trying to understand how much is truly true or if its just tradition. EO by far interests me the most to study of all the denominations out there.

I know that several have answered this question, but I wanted to take a crack at it as well from within my own experience (connecting it to the stuff I wrote about mysticism before).

I don't mean this at all to be "predictive" of your own path (so please don't take it that way and if I mis-step or mis-communicate I apologize in advance), but I totally get what you mean by saying that the liturgy isn't where you've been led. In my own experience growing up, I was very, very satisfied within what I would now call the "evangelical tradition" of worship. Though sometimes dismissed as a rock concert, I don't think that is the case. Are those services at times emotionally manipulative? Absolutely. Often intentionally. But that doesn't at all make them inauthentic from the point of view of the worshipper. I know (for a fact) that authentic experiences of God's presence are possible in just such a service and just such a church, as that (multiple times) is where I met God and grew to love Him.

You mentioned that you come from a home church tradition, which I have less direct experience with - but I think some of the underlying mistrust (not antagonism, just lack-of-understanding) towards liturgy is something we share(d). To me, I just didn't "get" liturgical worship. It wasn't for lack of exposure. I'd grown up protestant, but attended a Catholic high school and seen a lot of that style of liturgy. Still, I sincerely (and still do sincerely) and adamently felt that God could be honored by multiple forms of worship, and wanted to see the best in what I didn't understand.

At the same time I recognized a gap in my own understanding. I'd taken a (bad) church history class in high school, and heard of Orthodoxy for the first time there. They barely mentioned it, and only around the Great Schism, but once in my head I couldn't get away from the fact that I had no clue what had happened to approx. half of Christianity. Years later (in my last year of college), I attended an Orthodox Liturgy in order to attend their coffee hour and try to fenagle a conversation with the priest. I figured the best people to ask about Orthodoxy were the Orthodox, and the most educated among them (or at least the most prepared to talk about it) would be the appointed priests.

My first exposure to Orthodox worship was, to say the least, underwhelming and intimidating. I felt that it was medieval, stiff, and without the presence of the Spirit. I know that is different from the stories of a lot of other people - but that's the honest truth, and I think that it's ok. Some people don't get angels descending from heaven the first time they see an icon and smell incense. Sometimes the chanting just sounds like singing with a poor sense of rhythm.

But I wasn't there for the worship itself (though I never wanted to pass up a chance to praise God!) - so I stuck it out. I didn't get a chance to talk to the priest because my ride had to leave before the coffee hour (and the service ran on Orthodox time, meaning late). That meant I needed to go back next week. I will say that some of the songs stuck in my head ("Lord, have mercy" in particular), which made a nice sound-track to my life for the next week (nothing wrong with asking God for more mercy, right?).

When I went the second time, I resolved to try and understand the liturgy. I had an interesting experience. I still didn't get it at all; but there was a girl (a student at the college adjacent to the chapel where this service was being held) and, during the service, I could see in her eyes that she was "in" it. Put another way, I could see the presence of the Spirit in her engagement in the worship. She sang along only occassionally - this parish was mostly quiet while the 2-3 person choir sang the parts - but, unlike in my Protestant experience, that didn't mean that they were disengaged.

I suddenly realized the problem wasn't with the service. It was with me. I was the one missing something that these people were clearly grasping. If I were to grasp Orthodoxy, I had to grasp whatever it was I was missing.

I did get to talk to the priest that time, and we had a fantastic conversation ranging on all matters of doctrine and history. It was recorded by one of the parishoners (I have a background in debate, and was studying Christianity a lot in college, so there was a healthy degree of back-and-forth - fortunately, I was more interested in information than debate), but I've never been able to get the recording. I wish I had it. I heard a few doctrinally challenging questions (i.e. "How do you know what books are in your Bible?"), but for the most part felt like Orthodox was alright. It managed to avoid some of the stuff I didn't like in Catholicism (though it had an unfortunate adoration of Mary and the Saints that I didn't get), and had persevered in believing in the Trinity, Incarnation, and salvation by Christ. I asked for literature to read, and had Ware's "The Orthodox Church" recommended to me. I ordered it on Amazon that night, and had read it before the service the following Sunday. Along the way, I circled everything I disagreed with / needed further clarification on.

Something interesting was also happening - I noticed that after each liturgy, the music stuck with me (no difference there from Protestant worship), but in a different way. It's repetitive nature lent itself towards a very different experience from Protestant songs; the liturgical music had a calming / peace-ing effect rather than an upping / energizing effect.

More significantly, I still didn't like the liturgy. It was for this reason that I absolutely fell in love with it. For once, for the first time, worship was in no way, shape, or form about me. I didn't like the form, and that meant my presence was wholly about God - merely standing there (and yes, it was a lot of standing) became an act of worship more profound and more pure than any I'd engaged in before.

In other words, the worship was ascetic precisely because it was determined for me and was, rather than stemming from me, a matter of obedience.

To put it in terms I used in the post on mysticism, this was worship that helped me (for a brief hour and a half) empty myself of my false self. Ascesis LIBERATED me from slavery to my own taste in worship. God, in His grace and through this liturgical worship, gave my a gift I didn't even know I needed.

If the Protestant worship I'd been accustomed to had been like David dancing before the Lord with timbrel and pipe, then Orthodox worship was "Be still and know that I am God."

To be certain, since that time I've "felt" some incredible things in Orthodox worship. But it still retains a unique ability to not at all be about my feelings. Whether I'm "in it" or not, worship is worship. The quality of the worship is not contingent on the fickelness of my own feelings and whether I'm aware of the Spirit on that particular day. The idol of the emotional experience takes a back seat to the underlying SPIRITUAL experience, which often occurs beneath the level of consciousness.

Later, I became a catechumen, and was recieved by baptism about a year after first beginning my exploration. I don't know how to communicate the experience of the sacramental life except to say that it surpassed everything I'd known within Protestant worship. I'd had moments of a knowledge of the presence of God within Protestant worship. The night of my baptism, long after the service had ended and the monastery I was staying at had gone silent with the sacred stillness of the dark, I knelt down to pray and found no words. Instead, I felt enveloped by absolute and persistent peace. I walked over to the door of the abbot's apartment (this was quite late), and knocked. He answered, looking tired. I gaped at him, still not having words, and he simply said: "It's the presence of God." I nodded and left.

When I say that we are mystics - we are. Liturgy is not a tradition that is an adjunct to that mysticism. Liturgy is the CORE of that mysticism. It both pulls us from ourselves (by ascetic obedience) AND fills us with Christ (by prayer and sacrament). It calls us into the cloud of witnesses and compels us to join them in the stillness of the worship of God. We don't find God in our passions, we find God in the silence of the cross through which He utters the most profound Word.

In Christ,
Macarius

 

[MoNiCa4316]

I am not Orthodox, but I also went through the journey of converting from evangelical Protestantism to a form of traditional, liturgical Christianity. I used to believe that only praise and worship - as you described - could be spiritual, and that the liturgy is dry and ritualistic, and even not pleasing to God. I went to a contemporary Protestant church..sure I had many emotional experiences of God's presence there.. but as I began to explore traditional Christianity (Catholicism and Orthodox) - I found that they spoke about feelings being very secondary. What matters is growing in holiness and submitting ourselves to God's will; learning to "die to self" and live in Him only. This is not an easy emotional process.. it is difficult, often painful, and requires much of putting our own will 2nd and God's first. Clearly I still have VERY far to go in this. But I didn't notice that my old church put a focus on this... there was a view that feelings = holiness, but that is not the case. God can give us certain consolations, but the Christian life is really about carrying the cross, now and here on earth, and then experiencing the glory of Heaven. It's not Heaven first, it's the Cross first. Of course, there are still many times when I could feel God's presence at church and during prayer, but also many times when I do not... sometimes I went through a time of dryness where I even wondered if my prayers were sincere. But a priest assured me that they are, because I will them, even if I don't feel them. That is what matters more; our will.

At one point, God showed me very clearly that the Sacraments (the Orthodox call them Mysteries) are true.. that is Baptism, Confirmation/Chrismation, the Eucharist, Confession... and when I began living the sacramental life, (in the context of liturgy), I could see that it goes beyond anything I experienced as a Protestant. There were times in my old church where I felt very close to God and thought "this is as great as it gets", but now it is evident to me that it was more of an emotional response, and what the Eucharist does to us is greater. It is true union with God, and it changes us more significantly than anything else.

Just wanted to share this.. I agree with what the others posted in this thread

God bless

 

[MoNiCa4316]

I hope that my Orthodox friends would allow me to post 2 quotes by St Padre Pio.. he's a Catholic Saint, but I think what he says here, is also what Orthodoxy teaches. (If not, please let me know ). I thought this is relevant to what I described in my previous post..

"Let us keep before our minds that which makes up real holiness. Holiness means getting above ourselves; it means perfect mastery of all our passions. It means having real and continual contempt for ourselves and for the things of the world to the point of preferring poverty rather than wealth, humiliation rather than glory, suffering rather than pleasure. Holiness means loving our neighbor as ourself for love of God. In this connection holiness means loving those who curse us, who hate and persecute us and even doing good to them. Holiness means living humbly, being disinterested, prudent, just, patient, kind, chaste, meek, diligent, carrying out one's duties for no other reason than that of pleasing God and receiving from Him alone the reward one deserves"

"You are mistaken, greatly mistaken, when you want to measure the soul's love for its Creator by the delightful feelings it experiences in loving God. This kind of love belongs to those who are still spiritually immature. . .On the other hand, the love of those who have left this spiritual infancy behind them is a love which experiences neither taste nor delight in what is called the sensitive part of the soul. We have a sure sign that these people really love God when we observe their readiness to keep God's holy law; their constant watchfulness so that they may not fall into sin; their habitual desire to see the heavenly Father glorified, while losing no chance to spread the kingdom of God as far as lies in their power; when we see them praying continually to God the Father in the same words of our divine Master, Our Father. . .Thy kingdom come."

God bless

 

[27B6]

I hope that my Orthodox friends would allow me to post 2 quotes by St Padre Pio.. he's a Catholic Saint, but I think what he says here, is also what Orthodoxy teaches. (If not, please let me know ). I thought this is relevant to what I described in my previous post..

"Let us keep before our minds that which makes up real holiness. Holiness means getting above ourselves; it means perfect mastery of all our passions. It means having real and continual contempt for ourselves and for the things of the world to the point of preferring poverty rather than wealth, humiliation rather than glory, suffering rather than pleasure. Holiness means loving our neighbor as ourself for love of God. In this connection holiness means loving those who curse us, who hate and persecute us and even doing good to them. Holiness means living humbly, being disinterested, prudent, just, patient, kind, chaste, meek, diligent, carrying out one's duties for no other reason than that of pleasing God and receiving from Him alone the reward one deserves"

"You are mistaken, greatly mistaken, when you want to measure the soul's love for its Creator by the delightful feelings it experiences in loving God. This kind of love belongs to those who are still spiritually immature. . .On the other hand, the love of those who have left this spiritual infancy behind them is a love which experiences neither taste nor delight in what is called the sensitive part of the soul. We have a sure sign that these people really love God when we observe their readiness to keep God's holy law; their constant watchfulness so that they may not fall into sin; their habitual desire to see the heavenly Father glorified, while losing no chance to spread the kingdom of God as far as lies in their power; when we see them praying continually to God the Father in the same words of our divine Master, Our Father. . .Thy kingdom come."

God bless

I especially like the good Padre's point in the second quotation.