Mysteries in Revelation: what I don't understand.

[Gnarwhal]

In the very first verse John explains that his letter is about the things that were going to happen SOON. The key to understanding the book is to ask the questions the first generation of (Jewish) Christians were asking, not impose a bunch of our politics and concerns from 2000 years later! At the time, Jewish Christians were wondering ... what now? The Messiah had been. The Messiah had, shockingly, died. The Messiah had miraculously risen to new life and solved the universal problem of sin. The Messiah had ascended to heaven.

What now for Israel? What now for Christians? And especially what now, given that the Roman authorities were about to turn savage; and change from "God's servants to do you good" (Romans 13) into the vicious beasts and very image of Satan on earth that we meet in Revelation! Had God failed his people? How are we to understand all the Old Testament promises of God to his people when they are about to experience such suffering? What does it even mean to belong to God's people now when the gospel can belong to all nations, all across the globe, in every tongue and culture and land? And how are Christians to respond to the Roman persecution? Should they declare Jihad? Or do Christians have another example?

These were the concerns John was writing to, the burning questions of the church in the first century. The idea that God would get John to write, "Gee, you guys think you have it bad, wait till you see what happens in 2012!!" is laughably absurd. Well, would be laughable, if so many Christians were not caught up in it.

Revelation is simply the gospel message applied to a church suffering the horror of Roman persecution. Once we set Revelation in its Roman context, it becomes a glorious book of comforting to *all* Christians in *all* ages. We see how they survived and witnessed to God's glory, and are comforted by the gospel message that in the end, the Lord WILL return and rescue his people and judge his enemies. It's the gospel promise, not the gospel timetable! It's not some B-Grade thriller that Tim Lahaye might write, designed merely to titillate our anticipation of just how special we are in our special generation in our own special nations and special politics and special theories! It's not about us! Really! It's about explaining the gospel promises to the first century Jewish Christians who were about to have their whole world turned upside down. It explained that they could have confidence that the Messiah was still reigning victoriously, from heaven, even though bad things still happened on the earth. It's about not trusting in worldly authorities, money, security, and power. It's about not siding with 'beasts' when ever and where ever they arise. And so John explains the Old testament promises in the picture language we call 'apocalyptic language' (a form of writing from 200BC to 200AD). It's like bible manga, and is only understood in the context of what was about to happen soon to John's generation.

Anything else may as well be special readings from Nostradamus.

Amen, amen and amen bro.

 

[Barraco]

There are many things in the book of Revelation that I do not understand, so perhaps here, is opportunity to post what you think about these mysteries.
The first is ‘the image of the beast’ which the people of the earth are instructed to make, and this image is given life, as it breaths and speaks.

Hi goldfish,

Here's my take on the mysteries:

The image of the beast can't be explained until we all agree on what the beast itself is. I believe it to be the Roman Empire.

If you look in Revelation 13:1-2, John describes the beast in the reverse order (leopard, bear, and lion) that Daniel does in Daniel 7, indicating that the beast that John is seeing is the fourth beast that Daniel saw. The Roman title for the Roman Emperor, Augustus, (seventh head of the beast) was put to an end in 476 CE and didn't get mentioned again until Charlemagne was crowned Augustus imperator by Pope Leo III in 800 CE. The Frankish rule only lasted two dynasties and was then taken by the Germans. That German rule was put to an end when Napoleon Bonaparte disbanded the Holy Roman Empire in 1806 CE and established the Confederacy of the Rhine.

I mention all of this because it leads to the image. Notice that the beast had a mortal wound that was healed. If the image is a representation of the beast, then you'd imagine the image would be healed as well.

In the late 19th century, early 20th century, the German Empire, called the Second Reich, formed and later went to war with the rest of the world. They lost World War I and received a heavy tax that made life very difficult for the Germans. The Nazi party began to gain ground shortly after, beginning with the burning of the Reichstag. Eventually, the Third Reich took over and the German Empire was in full swing.

The German Empire was described as the image of the beast because it wasn't Roman. It modeled the Roman. The only thing that was remotely called Roman during that time was called the Roman Catholic Church. The Third Reich seized power and rounded up all the Jews that were forced into the slums of Rome and shipped them out to concentration camps. That was the end of the Great Tribulation. Shortly after, the Jews got their homeland back and much of the Old Testament prophecies about that nation have been coming true.

That's my take on it. If you can, try to think of anyone more notorious than Adolf Hitler. Adolf seems like a fine candidate to be the false prophet that was mentioned in Revelation 13.

Is this image of the beast, a clone of the beast’ which was wounded by the sword, and is the sword a real sword, of a metaphor for the word of God, and if it is the word of God, why not just say so to limit the confusion?

Yes, No, and because Revelation was written during the late 1st century CE, for the readers of the 1st century (as well as for us in the 21st century CE). Therefore, we have to understand the readers' culture, history, language, context, etc., to get a better idea of the message being communicated.

The second mystery is the swarm of locusts, is this metaphor, or are these real locusts of some sort, with symbolism incorporated.

They are symbolic. Many of the readers in the first century understood that five months was a typical harvest season and that there was nothing more depressing than working five long months tilling the ground to only have your harvest devoured by a plague of locusts. (If you read Nectar in a Sieve [fiction], it talks about this occasion happening to a village in India.)

So its farming language, only no farming is going on. The locusts don't devour the vegetation, but they torment men. That means that the men are their own work. Ever met a man who worked 19.5 years with a company only to be let off after a 'convenient downsizing'? Its depressing. He was 6 months away from retiring. He had invested his entire life into that company and it fell under. Now, put this on a worldwide scale. The 20th century properly coined that event, the Great Depression. Notice that it said that the men wanted to kill themselves (depression) but death fled from them.

This is where I think Bible prophecy meets us today: Everything is shifting over to the Middle East now.

During the recession in 2008, did you ever hear Israel complain about money problems? Greece, America, and China are all having economic issues, and Israel seems unharmed. It is written that a league in the Middle East will form and nations from the North will invade Israel, a city with no walls, in attempt to rob her. I think that this is possibly what will soon take place.

Daniel the prophet is so confused by the visions that he had, that he had to get an angel along to explain it to him, and yet we are not given any explanations in the main, so a lot of the book remains the topic of endless arguments.

Those arguments are helping me learn more and see more critically at our methods.

What is the meaning of the flame red, sulphur yellow and hyacinth blue, worn by the army of 200 million, is this an indication that we are looking at the Ottoman Turks, as that was their colours- specifically. The colours are there for a reason, and those colours do not add up to China, which is red.

Here is where many disagree with me. I've tried and tried to find anything remotely close to a flag or colors that match the bearer with the story, and nothing lines up. Furthermore, there are critical questions that are not being asked.

If the prophecy of the sixth trumpet is for the future, do you really think that it is feasible or even necessary for 200 million horsemen (men on horses) to destroy 1/3 of the world's population with fire, smoke, and brimstone in JUST ONE HOUR?

I don't.

I think the colors stand for fire, smoke, and brimstone (sulfur). The 200 million horsemen are not literal horsemen. Beside, the trumpet starts off with FOUR angels in the Euphrates River waiting to be released to kill 1/3 of the world with fire, smoke, and brimstone. The it begins talking about the horsemen.

Here is what I think:

The four angels fight with the power of 200 million horsemen. I got curious one day and wanted to look at the temperature that the first atom bombs burned at. Lo and behold, I found an article (not sure if it was a credible online source or not) that burned at the temperature of 200 million British Thermal Units.

I think that the four angels are four nations that go to nuclear war. I think that the Euphrates River is the center point on the conflict, i.e. the Middle East. I think that the horsemen are described as shooting fire out of their tails because, in a way, an ICBM does the same thing. The tail is actually the head of the missile once it comes down. The results are catastrophic. It takes 30 minutes for an ICBM to hit anywhere in the world. It takes 30 minutes to retaliate. That makes up one hour and can easily account for the deaths of 1/3 of the world's population.

That lines up with Ezekiel 38 and 39 where God confuses the armies of Gog and Magog and cause them to fight each other, wherein He also rains fire down on them from heaven and the body count is extremely high.

 

[eclipsenow]

That's my take on it. If you can, try to think of anyone more notorious than Adolf Hitler. Adolf seems like a fine candidate to be the false prophet that was mentioned in Revelation 13.

The problem is so many characters are notorious, and horrible, and false. To some it might be Adolf, to other generations it would have been Stalin, or Lenin, or Genghis Khan, or one of the Roman Emperors, or whoever the dominant tyrant criminal of the age is. Pol Pot? Kim Jon-il of North Korea?

So I guess it is time to ask my usual partial-preterist questions of a futurist like yourself:

1. Why would God answer the Roman persecution of the church in John's generation, who had just seen their Messiah crucified, resurrected, and then ascend to heaven, and have all sorts of identity and salvation questions about to hit them as the Romans throw them to the lions; why would God answer these first Christians with "You think you've got it bad, wait till you see what happens in 2014!!!!" What a terrible view of God's communication to his people? How cold and indifferent?

2. If Revelation is mainly about our generation (what a conceited view!), what good has it been to Christians for the last 2000 years?

3. What do you do with the very first verse of the book where John explains that these things were to happen SOON!?

As you can see, I am not convinced Revelation is a timetable for the future. It is the gospel applied and restated to the suffering church of the first century and writ in bold, apocalyptic metaphors, some of which pick up on Old Testament themes.

For example, you rightly suggested we look at the beasts in the book of Daniel. Yet the beast in Revelation is a mixture of ALL of them! In other words, John is mixing together the different empires that have persecuted God's people before, and is basically saying that any time a government starts to persecute God's people, the church, that government becomes a beast. What is really striking is that earlier Paul called the Roman authorities "God's servants to do you good". (Romans 13). Then when John sees what is coming with the Roman crack down on Christians, he amalgamates all the previous kingdoms into one super-terrible beast and warns Christians to be on their guard! Trouble is coming! Soon! So stay faithful, and be prepared to lose everything, even your lives, for Christ.

That is a warning that could apply to us today if our countries suddenly lose their democratic liberties and come under the iron hand of anti-Christian dictators.

The irony is that not only do futurists make Revelation irrelevant to the vast majority of Christian history so far, but they kind of make the timetable irrelevant to now as well. Because if this is God's future timetable ... so what? What can I do about it? Aren't I just going to continue going to church and loving God and my neighbour, like always?

Isn't knowing all this arbitrary and useless and a distraction? For we cannot change God's plan. (In the hypothetical situation that I am wrong and Revelation actually proves to be some sort of future timetable. Which it isn't.) It's just a bunch of weird details about some future timetable that will fill up Christian forums with debates about when, what, who, why, how, and endless speculation and paranoia.

I'm over it. It's a form of Christian ghost-story, told around youth campfires to scare each other. What happened to encouraging each other to witness about our Lord, and just getting on with the job of the Great Commission?

 

[Barraco]

The problem is so many characters are notorious, and horrible, and false. To some it might be Adolf, to other generations it would have been Stalin, or Lenin, or Genghis Khan, or one of the Roman Emperors, or whoever the dominant tyrant criminal of the age is. Pol Pot? Kim Jon-il of North Korea?

Because I can't imagine the Roman Catholic Church remained quiet at the persecutions of those other figures. Adolf Hitler was smack-dab in the center of the Roman Empire. Stalin, Lenin, Khan, Pol Pot, and Kim Jon-il had no influence or attachment to the Roman Empire. They were dictators and horrific, but not notorious in the Roman world, nor did they have the influence to make up their own religion under the pretense of nationalism. In fact, aside from Khan, they were all atheists.

So I guess it is time to ask my usual partial-preterist questions of a futurist like yourself:

1. Why would God answer the Roman persecution of the church in John's generation, who had just seen their Messiah crucified, resurrected, and then ascend to heaven, and have all sorts of identity and salvation questions about to hit them as the Romans throw them to the lions; why would God answer these first Christians with "You think you've got it bad, wait till you see what happens in 2014!!!!" What a terrible view of God's communication to his people? How cold and indifferent?

I know where you are going from. And, ignoring the sarcasm, I agree with you. It is you who has assumed way too much of me. I'm not a futurist. If anything, I'm close to an historicist. I don't think Jesus has been silent all this time. I believe that He has been reigning and showing his power this entire time. To answer the Jewish accusation that Jesus didn't fulfill all the Messianic prophecies, my answer would be that Jesus has been putting the world's nations under God's feet as a footstool. Revelations, from an historicist perspective, supports that apology. Please try and not assume that you have me figured out.

2. If Revelation is mainly about our generation (what a conceited view!), what good has it been to Christians for the last 2000 years?

I think I've spoken enough on this. I don't see why you would ask me the same question twice.

3. What do you do with the very first verse of the book where John explains that these things were to happen SOON!?

Those things were going to start soon. And they did. The kingdom of heaven was breaking through at an unbelievable tempo. What would happen with the first century Church would have an incredible impact on the world in the future. The Church of Ephesus, the headquarters where John was stationed, had lost their super-apostle pastor to exile in Patmos. So they went into hiding, and put their lampstand under the table where no one could see it. Smyrna was enduring heavy persecution. Pergamum was dealing with people who were trying to accommodate Christianity with other religions so as to not let Christ's teachings be so offensive and radical. These among many issues were of great importance to Christ because he wanted His Church to be ready for the day He returns. So, those things did start happening soon. And they have been happening since.

As you can see, I am not convinced Revelation is a timetable for the future. It is the gospel applied and restated to the suffering church of the first century and writ in bold, apocalyptic metaphors, some of which pick up on Old Testament themes.

I don't like calling myself an anythingist. I'm just close to an historicist. Which brings me to my point. I don't agree with modern eschatology. I don't agree with preterist or futurism. I don't agree with tribulationalism or the secret rapture theory. If Revelation was intended only for the first century Church readers, then why has Christ not returned yet? My guess is that anything to answer this would be a stretch and fabrication. If Revelation was only intended for the future, then, yes, the last 2,000 years of suffering and endurance was uncompassionate on God's part. BUT, if Christ has been putting all nations under God's power, then He has been fulfilling the Messianic prophecies and wanted His Church throughout all generations to know how to remain white and beautiful for the day He comes to claim His Bride.

For example, you rightly suggested we look at the beasts in the book of Daniel. Yet the beast in Revelation is a mixture of ALL of them!

What do you think Daniel was trying to get at? Let's be serious and critical about this. To the first century readers, who had extensive experience with listening to the Jews in the synagogues, they would have understood that the use of the reverse order description would lead them to determine who the beast was. The beast with ten horns looked like a leopard, had the feet of a bear, and the mouth of a lion. The beasts of Daniel were a lion, a bear, a leopard, and a beast with ten horns. Let's draw the conclusion. The beast of Revelation 13 is the Roman Empire. Daniel 2 and 7 both point to it very clearly.

In other words, John is mixing together the different empires that have persecuted God's people before, and is basically saying that any time a government starts to persecute God's people, the church, that government becomes a beast. What is really striking is that earlier Paul called the Roman authorities "God's servants to do you good". (Romans 13). Then when John sees what is coming with the Roman crack down on Christians, he amalgamates all the previous kingdoms into one super-terrible beast and warns Christians to be on their guard! Trouble is coming! Soon! So stay faithful, and be prepared to lose everything, even your lives, for Christ.

I agree and that is a fascinating way of putting that. But Daniel 2 and 7 showed that there would be one beast in particular that would be more notorious than the others. Rome. The ten horns are symbolic for a divided kingdom. When the Northern Kingdom split from the Southern Kingdom, it was ten tribes to the north with the true and faithful ones to the south. The seven heads are seven rulers of seven kingdoms, namely the founders. Nebuchadnezzar, Cyrus, Cassander, Lysimachus, Ptolemy, Seluceus, and Augustus. By the time of Marcus Aurelius, the Roman Empire covered the Babylonian, Persian, and Greek territories. The mouth that the beast of Revelation 13 gets is the Roman pontiff, who cut a deal with Charlemagne and every other Holy Roman Emperor allegiance in exchange for protection and liberties (which may also be why the Roman See was silent when Adolf first began invading other nations.)

That is a warning that could apply to us today if our countries suddenly lose their democratic liberties and come under the iron hand of anti-Christian dictators.

I agree and disagree. I don't think Jesus was at all ever concerned about our democratic liberties. We are residents of the kingdom of God. Since when did we need the world's approval to live truly?

The irony is that not only do futurists make Revelation irrelevant to the vast majority of Christian history so far, but they kind of make the timetable irrelevant to now as well. Because if this is God's future timetable ... so what? What can I do about it? Aren't I just going to continue going to church and loving God and my neighbour, like always?

Notice that Christ had a different message to each church. I think our biggest problem, at least in the West, is our love for money and freedom. We have turned good things into god things and have pushed Jesus out of our hearts. He is knocking. Before, we used to have a Church that persecuted Jews, witches, and anyone not Catholic. Before that, we had a Church that fought for a pure Christianity in the face of large support for heresies such as Arianism. And before that, we had a Church that had to endure mass persecution. Those are all issues that have been prevalent in Church history at all generations and yet predominantly in their own respective generations. That is why each message that is addressed to each individual church on the road to Laodicea is also addressed to all churches.

Isn't knowing all this arbitrary and useless and a distraction? For we cannot change God's plan. (In the hypothetical situation that I am wrong and Revelation actually proves to be some sort of future timetable. Which it isn't.) It's just a bunch of weird details about some future timetable that will fill up Christian forums with debates about when, what, who, why, how, and endless speculation and paranoia.

Unless it is used to communicate the Gospel. We are in serious times right now. People in church are starting to believe that the Bible is not God's word, that there is no objective truth, that Jesus isn't the only way, and just being good is good enough. What will follow is a watering down of church teachings to keep a congregation, thereby moving along the lines of the church of Pergamum. Meanwhile, congregations in the South are convinced that their wealth is blessings from God earned by being good Christians, much like Laodicea. In Pakistan, there are churches being persecuted for being Christian, like Smyrna. In Egypt, there is growing worry that persecution will break out and that the state will allow it, much like Ephesus. In Detroit, there are churches that house the homeless and feed the hungry, even when there is no certainty that they will make it through the winter, like Philadelphia.

If Revelation was meant only for the first century, then what does Christ have to say for the following 2,000 years.

I'm over it. It's a form of Christian ghost-story, told around youth campfires to scare each other. What happened to encouraging each other to witness about our Lord, and just getting on with the job of the Great Commission?

Read the messages to the seven churches, and take a good look at Church history. You'll see what happened.

 

[eclipsenow]

Because I can't imagine the Roman Catholic Church remained quiet at the persecutions of those other figures. Adolf Hitler was smack-dab in the center of the Roman Empire. Stalin, Lenin, Khan, Pol Pot, and Kim Jon-il had no influence or attachment to the Roman Empire. They were dictators and horrific, but not notorious in the Roman world, nor did they have the influence to make up their own religion under the pretense of nationalism. In fact, aside from Khan, they were all atheists.

The Roman Catholic church has got nothing to do with it if you really are a historicist, as you claim. But you're a futurist, claiming bits of Revelation were fulfilled in WW2 and bits still to come. So which is it?

I know where you are going from. And, ignoring the sarcasm, I agree with you. It is you who has assumed way too much of me. I'm not a futurist.

Yes you are unless you're just playing semantic games. You think WW2 fulfilled something in Revelation. That, according to my understanding of the term 'futurist', means nearly 2000 years passed before a whole chunk of Revelation happened.

Instead Revelation describes the Roman emperors killing and beheading and persecuting Christians, all of which happened SOON after John wrote the book. Or was already starting as John wrote the book. The only thing that didn't happen, of course, is the glorious Judgement Day of the Christ. That's where Revelation is such a good gospel tract for John's day. It's the gospel writ in large, bold images; shouting and repeating the same themes over again and again. YES there will be horrible persecution and earthquakes; but when the Lord returns everything will be OK!

John could say that then, and we can say the same thing today with as much conviction and certainty.

If anything, I'm close to an historicist. I don't think Jesus has been silent all this time. I believe that He has been reigning and showing his power this entire time. To answer the Jewish accusation that Jesus didn't fulfill all the Messianic prophecies, my answer would be that Jesus has been putting the world's nations under God's feet as a footstool. Revelations, from an historicist perspective, supports that apology. Please try and not assume that you have me figured out.

As a Covenant Theologian I would say that God DID fulfil ALL the promises of the Old Testament in Christ. As the wrath of God poured down on Jesus the God-man, not only was all our sin judged, but Jesus body itself, as symbolic of all creation, was killed. Then when Jesus rose to new life, all of creation itself was reborn; in first fruits. So we wait in eschatological tension, in 'now and not yet' tension with all the promises fulfilled absolutely, all the promises to us heirs of God's kingdom coming true. It's as if the deeds of the house really have been signed over to us, but we have yet to move in.

Those things were going to start soon. And they did.

Ahh, but they didn't just start to unfold then, the text doesn't allow that at all.



1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and [a]communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John, 2 who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. 3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near.

The Roman persecution was about to begin; so the 7 churches (all of us) should listen to this example and take heart and remember the gospel promise! For all time! So most of Revelation DID happen then, everything except the fantastic good news that one day the Lord will return and judge and reign supreme forever.

If Revelation was intended only for the first century Church readers, then why has Christ not returned yet? My guess is that anything to answer this would be a stretch and fabrication.

Revelation's target audience was the first century church but the use of the address to the 7 churches means it is really addressed to all Christians everywhere across all time. 7 is the number of God's completeness, God's perfection. Now if we're going to start limiting it in a literalistic sense to the actual 7 churches mentioned in the letter, are we going to also read Jesus having 7 eyes and 7 horns in a literalistic manner as well? I don't think so. Revelation is chock full of number symbolism. Only reading it with Jewish number goggles on will help us understand it.

It was to John's generation, specifically, but was also to all Christian generations. When persecuted stand fast! Hold to the faith! Don't trust in the 'security' of this world, whether material wealth or worldly power; instead trust in the Lord. Because he is coming back one day. That's a basic summary of the whole book, holding up the Roman persecution as a major theme that ties in all manner of themes that even apply as a warning to me in my comfortable Australian lifestyle.

If Revelation was only intended for the future, then, yes, the last 2,000 years of suffering and endurance was uncompassionate on God's part.

I didn't really say that, I was instead saying that if Revelation was about the future only, he ignored the suffering of John's generation into which John was actually writing. It would be like God just chose to ignore their terrible suffering and had his Apostle declare that the future was going to be far worse. But from my comfortable Australian experience, their past was FAR worse than anything I have experienced or am likely to experience. But I can still take warning from it.

BUT, if Christ has been putting all nations under God's power, then He has been fulfilling the Messianic prophecies and wanted His Church throughout all generations to know how to remain white and beautiful for the day He comes to claim His Bride.

Well, yes, now you've hit on it. Yes Revelation was focussing on the suffering of John's generation to warn ALL generations, just as we might learn from the troubles at the Corinthian churches and warn ALL our churches not to live like that. Yes Revelation explains that the gospel will continue, will march forward, unquenchable. But no, it's not telling us much about the future beyond John's generation; other than the basic gospel message that the Lord WILL return. One day.

What do you think Daniel was trying to get at? Let's be serious and critical about this. To the first century readers, who had extensive experience with listening to the Jews in the synagogues, they would have understood that the use of the reverse order description would lead them to determine who the beast was. The beast with ten horns looked like a leopard, had the feet of a bear, and the mouth of a lion. The beasts of Daniel were a lion, a bear, a leopard, and a beast with ten horns. Let's draw the conclusion. The beast of Revelation 13 is the Roman Empire. Daniel 2 and 7 both point to it very clearly.

Agreed.

I agree and disagree. I don't think Jesus was at all ever concerned about our democratic liberties. We are residents of the kingdom of God. Since when did we need the world's approval to live truly?

Of course we don't, and I like to remind the overly zealous right wing libertarian Christians here that the ROMAN authorities were called "God's servants to do you good". Now they were hardly as 'relaxed' and democratic as our leaders are today! I was just emphasising that things can change, and civilisations come and go, and empires rise and fall, and governments change.

Notice that Christ had a different message to each church. I think our biggest problem, at least in the West, is our love for money and freedom. We have turned good things into god things and have pushed Jesus out of our hearts. He is knocking. Before, we used to have a Church that persecuted Jews, witches, and anyone not Catholic. Before that, we had a Church that fought for a pure Christianity in the face of large support for heresies such as Arianism. And before that, we had a Church that had to endure mass persecution. Those are all issues that have been prevalent in Church history at all generations and yet predominantly in their own respective generations. That is why each message that is addressed to each individual church on the road to Laodicea is also addressed to all churches.

Agreed again! It addressed to both specific churches with specific problems while also being to all churches, just as the letter to Corinth or Galatia or even to an individual like Philemon can still be applied, carefully, to all Christians in all ages.

If Revelation was meant only for the first century, then what does Christ have to say for the following 2,000 years.

If Corinthians was only to Corinth, let's cut it out of our bibles!

Read the messages to the seven churches, and take a good look at Church history. You'll see what happened.

Umm, no. I fail to see a historical timetable. I see a series of warnings to all Christians in all ages. No timetable. Sorry.

 

[Achilles6129]

There are many things in the book of Revelation that I do not understand, so perhaps here, is opportunity to post what you think about these mysteries.

It can be a very difficult book to understand. I would submit to you that the overwhelming majority of Christians have no clue as to the book of Revelation. This would extend, of course, to the theologians who write commentaries on the book. I think that very few people will ever understand the book of Revelation.

Part of understanding it, of course, is getting the sequence right. I think the theologians of modern christianity have abandoned the right sequence (i.e., that the seals/trumpets/plagues are all interspersed among each other, and are not in chronological order).

The first is ‘the image of the beast’ which the people of the earth are instructed to make, and this image is given life, as it breaths and speaks.

Is this image of the beast, a clone of the beast’ which was wounded by the sword, and is the sword a real sword, of a metaphor for the word of God, and if it is the word of God, why not just say so to limit the confusion?

This is an excellent question and one which I've tried to study in great detail. It seems to be impossible to say at present what the image of the beast is. I've heard that it may be a clone, television, a picture, a statue, a hologram, etc.

There seems to be a parallel between the image of the beast and God creating man in his own image back in Genesis. This would lend support to the idea that the image of the beast is a clone.

As for the wound by the sword, that could be something as simple as a wound from a gunshot or anything of that nature. It doesn't have to be a literal "sword", as a sword can be figurative of a weapon used to cause violence (e.g., the sword coming out of Christ's mouth which represents his spirit [see 2 Th. 2, etc.]).

The second mystery is the swarm of locusts, is this metaphor, or are these real locusts of some sort, with symbolism incorporated.

I've studied this one as much as I can as well. There are elements which lead me to believe that this is a literal plague - for example, the plague lasts 5 months, which is around the lifespan of some locusts. In addition, it does not seem feasible for a human army to cause this plague (since the plague is clearly global, the human army would have to be global). To me, it seems like a plague of literal insects that resemble locusts.

Daniel the prophet is so confused by the visions that he had, that he had to get an angel along to explain it to him, and yet we are not given any explanations in the main, so a lot of the book remains the topic of endless arguments.

Like I said, there are some things in the book of Revelation which we can never know until they transpire. We can only debate on what they could mean. However, I think there are other things that we absolutely can know - for example, the general sequence of events, and the description of some of the plagues, etc. We can figure this out by cross-referencing the OT/NT together. It's all a matter of personal study, in my opinion.

What is the meaning of the flame red, sulphur yellow and hyacinth blue, worn by the army of 200 million, is this an indication that we are looking at the Ottoman Turks, as that was their colours- specifically. The colours are there for a reason, and those colours do not add up to China, which is red.

Another excellent question. I think the 200 million man army is the number of combatants in this war, and this is the final war (in other words, some of these armies end up in Armageddon). As for the colors, I believe it's just a mishmash of uniforms/tanks/aircraft, etc., of various countries. For example, China and Russia might be red, desert camofluage might be yellow, and aircraft/navy might be blue.

Anyways, these are excellent questions that I've asked myself before as well. I wish that the answers were more obvious, but for now we can really only debate the meaning.

 

[dana b]

It can be a very difficult book to understand. I would submit to you that the overwhelming majority of Christians have no clue as to the book of Revelation. This would extend, of course, to the theologians who write commentaries on the book. I think that very few people will ever understand the book of Revelation.

Part of understanding it, of course, is getting the sequence right. I think the theologians of modern christianity have abandoned the right sequence (i.e., that the seals/trumpets/plagues are all interspersed among each other, and are not in chronological order).



This is an excellent question and one which I've tried to study in great detail. It seems to be impossible to say at present what the image of the beast is. I've heard that it may be a clone, television, a picture, a statue, a hologram, etc.

There seems to be a parallel between the image of the beast and God creating man in his own image back in Genesis. This would lend support to the idea that the image of the beast is a clone.

As for the wound by the sword, that could be something as simple as a wound from a gunshot or anything of that nature. It doesn't have to be a literal "sword", as a sword can be figurative of a weapon used to cause violence (e.g., the sword coming out of Christ's mouth which represents his spirit [see 2 Th. 2, etc.]).



I've studied this one as much as I can as well. There are elements which lead me to believe that this is a literal plague - for example, the plague lasts 5 months, which is around the lifespan of some locusts. In addition, it does not seem feasible for a human army to cause this plague (since the plague is clearly global, the human army would have to be global). To me, it seems like a plague of literal insects that resemble locusts.



Like I said, there are some things in the book of Revelation which we can never know until they transpire. We can only debate on what they could mean. However, I think there are other things that we absolutely can know - for example, the general sequence of events, and the description of some of the plagues, etc. We can figure this out by cross-referencing the OT/NT together. It's all a matter of personal study, in my opinion.



Another excellent question. I think the 200 million man army is the number of combatants in this war, and this is the final war (in other words, some of these armies end up in Armageddon). As for the colors, I believe it's just a mishmash of uniforms/tanks/aircraft, etc., of various countries. For example, China and Russia might be red, desert camofluage might be yellow, and aircraft/navy might be blue.

Anyways, these are excellent questions that I've asked myself before as well. I wish that the answers were more obvious, but for now we can really only debate the meaning.

There are six colors of the spectrum visible to the naked eye. Noah saw these in the rainbow. Gen.9;13

There are three primary colors - blue, yellow and red
And these are interspaced by the three colors composed of them being "purple, green and orange." Do you think that this is significant?

 

[Barraco]

The Roman Catholic church has got nothing to do with it if you really are a historicist, as you claim. But you're a futurist, claiming bits of Revelation were fulfilled in WW2 and bits still to come. So which is it?



Yes you are unless you're just playing semantic games. You think WW2 fulfilled something in Revelation. That, according to my understanding of the term 'futurist', means nearly 2000 years passed before a whole chunk of Revelation happened.

Instead Revelation describes the Roman emperors killing and beheading and persecuting Christians, all of which happened SOON after John wrote the book. Or was already starting as John wrote the book. The only thing that didn't happen, of course, is the glorious Judgement Day of the Christ. That's where Revelation is such a good gospel tract for John's day. It's the gospel writ in large, bold images; shouting and repeating the same themes over again and again. YES there will be horrible persecution and earthquakes; but when the Lord returns everything will be OK!

John could say that then, and we can say the same thing today with as much conviction and certainty.


As a Covenant Theologian I would say that God DID fulfil ALL the promises of the Old Testament in Christ. As the wrath of God poured down on Jesus the God-man, not only was all our sin judged, but Jesus body itself, as symbolic of all creation, was killed. Then when Jesus rose to new life, all of creation itself was reborn; in first fruits. So we wait in eschatological tension, in 'now and not yet' tension with all the promises fulfilled absolutely, all the promises to us heirs of God's kingdom coming true. It's as if the deeds of the house really have been signed over to us, but we have yet to move in.


Ahh, but they didn't just start to unfold then, the text doesn't allow that at all.



1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and [a]communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John, 2 who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. 3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near.

The Roman persecution was about to begin; so the 7 churches (all of us) should listen to this example and take heart and remember the gospel promise! For all time! So most of Revelation DID happen then, everything except the fantastic good news that one day the Lord will return and judge and reign supreme forever.






Revelation's target audience was the first century church but the use of the address to the 7 churches means it is really addressed to all Christians everywhere across all time. 7 is the number of God's completeness, God's perfection. Now if we're going to start limiting it in a literalistic sense to the actual 7 churches mentioned in the letter, are we going to also read Jesus having 7 eyes and 7 horns in a literalistic manner as well? I don't think so. Revelation is chock full of number symbolism. Only reading it with Jewish number goggles on will help us understand it.

It was to John's generation, specifically, but was also to all Christian generations. When persecuted stand fast! Hold to the faith! Don't trust in the 'security' of this world, whether material wealth or worldly power; instead trust in the Lord. Because he is coming back one day. That's a basic summary of the whole book, holding up the Roman persecution as a major theme that ties in all manner of themes that even apply as a warning to me in my comfortable Australian lifestyle.


I didn't really say that, I was instead saying that if Revelation was about the future only, he ignored the suffering of John's generation into which John was actually writing. It would be like God just chose to ignore their terrible suffering and had his Apostle declare that the future was going to be far worse. But from my comfortable Australian experience, their past was FAR worse than anything I have experienced or am likely to experience. But I can still take warning from it.


Well, yes, now you've hit on it. Yes Revelation was focussing on the suffering of John's generation to warn ALL generations, just as we might learn from the troubles at the Corinthian churches and warn ALL our churches not to live like that. Yes Revelation explains that the gospel will continue, will march forward, unquenchable. But no, it's not telling us much about the future beyond John's generation; other than the basic gospel message that the Lord WILL return. One day.


Agreed.


Of course we don't, and I like to remind the overly zealous right wing libertarian Christians here that the ROMAN authorities were called "God's servants to do you good". Now they were hardly as 'relaxed' and democratic as our leaders are today! I was just emphasising that things can change, and civilisations come and go, and empires rise and fall, and governments change.



Agreed again! It addressed to both specific churches with specific problems while also being to all churches, just as the letter to Corinth or Galatia or even to an individual like Philemon can still be applied, carefully, to all Christians in all ages.


If Corinthians was only to Corinth, let's cut it out of our bibles!


Umm, no. I fail to see a historical timetable. I see a series of warnings to all Christians in all ages. No timetable. Sorry.

Hi Eclipse.

I'm gonna stop this short right here. Your tone is disrespectful. I understand that you have a point that you want to get across. But not at the expense of telling other people that they are unqualified to comment, and you have done that without exactly saying it.

I am not a futurist, for the last time. You may think that you know everything when you see it, but you don't know me. We can start this over again, more respectfully, and learn from each other. Or I can shut you out and ignore you. Your choice.

 

[Barraco]

This is for Eclipse.

So you know that I do not follow modern eschatological methods, please read carefully into my explanation of my position.

In Revelation 1, John describes Jesus much in the way Daniel describes the 'one like a son of man' in Daniel 10. In the context of Daniel, he was being told what would soon befall his people and the holy city. That means everything from Daniel 10-12 was regarding the Jewish people and Jerusalem. The catch is that the explanation was covering over 400 years of history. This is made evident in Daniel 11, where Greco-Syria and Greco-Egypt were both fighting for dominance, with Judea caught in the middle of it all.

In Revelation 1, Jesus, whom is described in the very same manner as the man in Daniel 10, is standing in the midst of the seven churches. What this tells me is that the Scriptural reference isn't a coincidence and that the seven churches are eras of Church history.

Finally, if you cover the Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24 (which properly fits your preterist perspective) it makes an outstanding demonstration of my point. In Matthew 24, the disciples want to know what will happen to the temple and what will be the sign of His coming. Jesus goes on a long list of common signs that have happened for every generation. Famines, plagues, earthquakes, and world wars. He even mentioned that His disciples would share the same fate as the prophets.

But none of those signs answered the disciples questions. Then, Jesus breaks the string of events to focus on one prophecy in particular: The destruction of Jerusalem (as Luke 21 says 'when you see the holy city surrounded by armies' rather than follow Mark 13 and Matthew 24's 'when you see the abomination of desolation standing where it ought not.)

The destruction of Jerusalem was going to be the disciples assurance that everything else Jesus said would come true and that, when they see that happen, they could look up for their redemption because that is the sign of their redemption (ironically). What that meant was that, if they saw the sign and heeded Jesus' message to leave the city and country, they would be spared the deception, suffering, and death that the Jews suffered in 70 CE. That meant that they would live to spread Jesus' teachings to not only Jews, but to all nations.

I went through this so that you can understand how I look at Revelations. I don't Revelations as just a book warning to seven literal Churches. I see it as a book with seven messages to seven ages in Church History and the signs to back those messages up.

My point: I believe that we (at least in the West) are in the era of Laodicea, where money and consumerism affects our every way of life, even how we select churches. We are bent on individualism just so that we never have to endure our fathers' traditions. Jesus is at the door knocking and we are worried about our economy.

What signs I think we will suffer are the trumpets. That means that I believe that the seven seals have already happened in the previous 2,000 years. In other words, during those seven periods of Church history, the signs written in the book of Revelation have been coming true so that each generation would hear Jesus' words to them.

The time was short for John because he realized that heresy was at the door, opting out persecution seemed like a good call for heresy, John was the last living witness of Jesus' teachings, and he was about to die. From that point on, the Church was on its own. Everything the disciples taught them was about to be put in full practice without even the convenience of peace. They needed to hear Jesus' words and we need to hear them today.

That is my view. No modern helicopters. No seven year tribulation. No secret rapture. Do you understand now that I am not a futurist?

 

[eclipsenow]

This is for Eclipse.

So you know that I do not follow modern eschatological methods, please read carefully into my explanation of my position.

In Revelation 1, John describes Jesus much in the way Daniel describes the 'one like a son of man' in Daniel 10. In the context of Daniel, he was being told what would soon befall his people and the holy city. That means everything from Daniel 10-12 was regarding the Jewish people and Jerusalem. The catch is that the explanation was covering over 400 years of history. This is made evident in Daniel 11, where Greco-Syria and Greco-Egypt were both fighting for dominance, with Judea caught in the middle of it all.

Good!

In Revelation 1, Jesus, whom is described in the very same manner as the man in Daniel 10, is standing in the midst of the seven churches. What this tells me is that the Scriptural reference isn't a coincidence and that the seven churches are eras of Church history.

I can see the link you are trying to make and think it is an interesting argument. (It's not as 'out there' as some of the stuff in this thread! It at least draws on things that might be possible from the text). But think the weight of Revelations 1:1 undermines it, and the way John uses the number 7 of the churches.

While John was undoubtedly bringing to mind the son of man image, was he also importing the idea of centuries of history?

1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

'What must soon take place ... the time is near.'
Not, 'What must start soon ... and will take centuries to unfold'. Remember, the angel interpreted the vision for Daniel. There's none of that here. John says it is what must soon take place and the time is near, and so I'm not going to import other timetables onto the text. Symbolic meanings of course! The book is crammed full of astonishing images. But timetables? No.

Finally, if you cover the Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24 (which properly fits your preterist perspective) it makes an outstanding demonstration of my point. In Matthew 24, the disciples want to know what will happen to the temple and what will be the sign of His coming. Jesus goes on a long list of common signs that have happened for every generation. Famines, plagues, earthquakes, and world wars. He even mentioned that His disciples would share the same fate as the prophets.

But none of those signs answered the disciples questions. Then, Jesus breaks the string of events to focus on one prophecy in particular: The destruction of Jerusalem (as Luke 21 says 'when you see the holy city surrounded by armies' rather than follow Mark 13 and Matthew 24's 'when you see the abomination of desolation standing where it ought not.)

The destruction of Jerusalem was going to be the disciples assurance that everything else Jesus said would come true and that, when they see that happen, they could look up for their redemption because that is the sign of their redemption (ironically). What that meant was that, if they saw the sign and heeded Jesus' message to leave the city and country, they would be spared the deception, suffering, and death that the Jews suffered in 70 CE. That meant that they would live to spread Jesus' teachings to not only Jews, but to all nations.

Yes, all of this is very, very good. Let's also remember that Jesus said he would tear down the temple and rebuild it in 3 days. It's the end of the old covenant and beginning of the new covenant; which was really the one covenant all along; the covenant of grace.

I went through this so that you can understand how I look at Revelations. I don't Revelations as just a book warning to seven literal Churches. I see it as a book with seven messages to seven ages in Church History and the signs to back those messages up.

This is where you lose me. I don't think the Daniel passage imports so easily onto the 7 churches discussion. Yes John quoted the 'son of man' image, but also did some of his own weird stuff with it.

First, the reference to the 7 churches happens before the Son of Man reference. We don't naturally lay down 400 years of history onto the 7 churches reference when it is actually mentioned before Daniel's vision of the Son of Man is referenced.

Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits[a] before his throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.
Second, the 'seven spirits'? What's that about? There's only 1 Spirit! Dr Paul Barnett thinks the 7 spirits is a metaphor for God's full participation in all the churches. In other words, this letter is addressed to us all.

Third, the introductory phrases remind us of the gospel and the way it applies to all churches! It's to the 7 spirits in the 7 churches, and it's all about Jesus death and resurrection and blood and salvation and making us priests and our mission! and the fact that Jesus will return in glory. All of those things apply to me, now, and to you, and to John himself 2000 years ago. This is universal Christian gospel stuff, not limited to particular people in particular ages. Check the bold.


Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits[a] before his throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.

To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

7 “Look, he is coming with the clouds,”
and “every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him”;
and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”[c]
So shall it be! Amen.

What I see is not so much being set up to hear 7 stages of church history, but the number seven being used heavily to emphasise the universal nature of the gospel. There's nothing about time in here except the 'forever and ever' nature of Jesus and God and the gospel. We are reminded that the Jesus who died is also the Son of Man who will return. It's a gospel presentation!

Fourth, how do you know where we are up to in time? How do you know we are in Laodicea? What is to stop some here endlessly debating you over which church period we fit in? What if some amazing future technology, such as personal service robots and magical nano-technology and 'Replicators' like on Star Trek enable some sort of frightening utopian greedy post-scarcity economy? What if we ain't seen nothing yet ... wouldn't they be the true greedy materialistic Laodiceans? On the other hand, hasn't Jesus always warned ALL people about mammon, even back in the first century? Isn't the "love of money the root of all kinds of evil" in all ages?

Fifth, what a Western view you are imposing on the world! What about those churches in North Korea and Muslim countries and poorer countries in Africa that are so desperately persecuted and poor that they can barely feed their own congregation? Keep in mind that the poorer African and South American churches are the fastest growing, and could soon be evangelising America and Australia. In some cases they already are. What makes you think the bible is even talking about YOUR country at this point? You are only 5% of the world population (even though America consumes 25% of the oil and many other resources as abundantly).

My point: I believe that we (at least in the West) are in the era of Laodicea, where money and consumerism affects our every way of life, even how we select churches. We are bent on individualism just so that we never have to endure our fathers' traditions. Jesus is at the door knocking and we are worried about our economy.

That is a great description of our churches mate! Well done, and I mean that. Especially the bit about the selfish individualism mindset of the consumer. It's the 'me' mindset that is so worrying in this consumerist culture. The Laodiciean chapters should be read in our churches as well. But should we brand Africa with this attitude? North Korea? Some South American churches? I don't think so. I think we are to take both warning and encouragement's from all of the passages, as they were both written to specific churches in the time of John and to us today. (Repetition of the use of 7 so many times). That's simply what the number 7 here means.

What signs I think we will suffer are the trumpets. That means that I believe that the seven seals have already happened in the previous 2,000 years. In other words, during those seven periods of Church history, the signs written in the book of Revelation have been coming true so that each generation would hear Jesus' words to them.

The best book I've read on Revelation is by Dr Paul Barnett, "Apocalypse now and then" and describes how There seem to be 4 main themes in the middle chunk of Revelation. These 4 themes seem to generally describe the span of time from Jesus Ascension till his return.

These 4 themes do not describe particular events, and are not a 'future timetable' to be guessed. (Otherwise, what good has this part of Scripture even been for the church for the last 2000 years?) Instead, they are generally descriptive, rather than being specifically prescriptive. They describe, they don't order. This is big picture language, not details.

The 4 themes that will keep repeating throughout the 2000 years (and counting) of the 'Last Days':
7 Seals depicting TYRANNY; Rev 6-7
7 trumpets depicting CHAOS IN CREATION 8-11
7 signs depicting PERSECUTION OF BELIEVERS 12-14
7 plagues depicting DESTRUCTION OF THE EARTH 15-16
Note the symbolism in the structure and pattern. Each theme is framed with 7 descriptions which finish with 'end of the world' language. This is universal language to describe the ‘Last Days’ we have lived in for 2000 years. Try not to think of these events as having a 'clock' or date. They are a waltz, not a timetable, expressionistic rather than photographic. It’s the cosmic battle of the gospel itself restated in Japanese Manga rather than a future timetable.
It is as universal and generally descriptive as the way John addressed this letter to 7 specific churches. While there were 7 actual, specific churches, John was writing warnings and encouragement to the universal church.
So while there might be actual examples of Roman persecution of these believers, including the legendary 'anti-Christ' of Nero, all Christians in all times will face opposition and persecution. This is a series of universal descriptions and encouragement's.

The number 7 here means "God's perfection" or "God's perfect control over". Just as Jesus had 7 eyes and 7 horns, expressing his perfect knowledge and perfect strength and power over all, this letter rallies us to remember God's perfect control over history. The recurring number 7 through all these rather horrible passages tells us that even when things look bleak, God is still in control. He is the King. He reigns over history. It will be OK.

Last comment: Each seems to have an interlude at event 6, in which other more comforting themes can be introduced. So when we see the 6th Seal opened, we get a glimpse of Judgement Day and the end of the world and people hiding in caves to vainly try to hide from the horror of it all, and then the next chapter is all about the Saints in heaven. Revelation is a message of comfort in the distress and suffering of this Christian life. It repeats, and repeats.

As famous Sydney evangelist John Chapman says, "Revelation is written for the old and stupid. It speaks very LOUDLY, and it repeats it again and again". That is, no other book in the bible speaks with such vivid images so loudly, and not many other books repeat themes as systematically and rigidly. Which makes it a disturbing book, because it breaks through all my dry theological language and somehow penetrates my heart with these vivid dragons and beasts and pale riders and blood soaked martyrs. Revelation shrieks the basic gospel to me in a way I cannot tame or domesticate. And that is a good thing for my dry, stuffy old heart

That is my view. No modern helicopters. No seven year tribulation. No secret rapture. Do you understand now that I am not a futurist?

Yes, I'm relieved you're not reading 'modern helicopters' in the passage, but I would still think of you as a futurist because you're saying John is writing about things outside of his own lifetime. I think everything John wrote about pretty much happened in his lifetime (or shortly after). The message is to look back at Jesus death and resurrection and trust in that, and look forward with hope in the Return of our Lord.

Sorry to box you into a narrow description, unless you have a better one?

Does anyone else have a more accurate term for his theological system panning 2000 years? Didn't Tim Lahaye have a similar view of the 7 churches = 7 periods of church history? Anyone?

 

[Gnarwhal]

nano-technology and 'Replicators' like on Star Trek...

That's actually Stargate...

...sorry, I couldn't resist, it's my favorite show.

 

[eclipsenow]

That's actually Stargate...

...sorry, I couldn't resist, it's my favorite show.

That's actually both!

1. There is the Star Trek Voyager molecular Replicator: like a Microwave but you type in your meal and it matter-transmits it together for you!

2. Then there is the Stargate villain, the Replicators; an evil self-replicating spider-droid that fought the Asgaard and then eventually a few battles on Earth as well!

Let's not forget the android version of nano-replicators that appeared after the Replicators escaped out of centuries in the Asgaard time-trap: centuries of hyper-evolution. Awesome! Our family borrowed all 15 seasons of Stargate and Atlantis last year and watched them almost every night. It was great fun, and gave us plenty to talk about with the kids.

"No kids, God wouldn't let this happen because..."

Or, "No kids, God isn't like that, and these Gaould are just pretending to be gods... more like Egyptian and Greek fairy tales than the true and living creator of all things..."

 

[Gnarwhal]

That's actually both!

1. There is the Star Trek Voyager molecular Replicator: like a Microwave but you type in your meal and it matter-transmits it together for you!

2. Then there is the Stargate villain, the Replicators; an evil self-replicating spider-droid that fought the Asgaard and then eventually a few battles on Earth as well!

Let's not forget the android version of nano-replicators that appeared after the Replicators escaped out of centuries in the Asgaard time-trap: centuries of hyper-evolution. Awesome! Our family borrowed all 15 seasons of Stargate and Atlantis last year and watched them almost every night. It was great fun, and gave us plenty to talk about with the kids.

"No kids, God wouldn't let this happen because..."

Or, "No kids, God isn't like that, and these Gaould are just pretending to be gods... more like Egyptian and Greek fairy tales than the true and living creator of all things..."

Touché sir! I wasn't aware of Voyager, haha. My wife and I have watched all of the SG-1, Atlantis and SGU episodes as well, I absolutely love the series--though I'm particularly partial to SGU.

Anyway, carry on with the original conversation. :-D

 

[earagun]

There are many things in the book of Revelation that I do not understand, so perhaps here, is opportunity to post what you think about these mysteries.
The first is ‘the image of the beast’ which the people of the earth are instructed to make, and this image is given life, as it breaths and speaks.
Is this image of the beast, a clone of the beast’ which was wounded by the sword, and is the sword a real sword, of a metaphor for the word of God, and if it is the word of God, why not just say so to limit the confusion?

The second mystery is the swarm of locusts, is this metaphor, or are these real locusts of some sort, with symbolism incorporated.

Daniel the prophet is so confused by the visions that he had, that he had to get an angel along to explain it to him, and yet we are not given any explanations in the main, so a lot of the book remains the topic of endless arguments.

What is the meaning of the flame red, sulphur yellow and hyacinth blue, worn by the army of 200 million, is this an indication that we are looking at the Ottoman Turks, as that was their colours- specifically. The colours are there for a reason, and those colours do not add up to China, which is red.

part of error can be trying to apply futuristic prophecies to past histories, such as most theologians have done regarding the four beast or the statue of Daniel.......Median Persian empire was double in size and strength.......no where near the prophetic claim to be "INFERIOR" of the Head of gold
(see Dan. 2:39).....Babylon......unless Babylon was only a reference to Babel for which it was named, and from where the 1st false religion can be traced, thus the kingdoms refered to are not man made empires but spiritual false religions, that continue up until Christ comes again, and destroys the Gold, silver, bronze, and iron mixed with clay "AT THE SAME TIME"
(see Dan. 2:35,45) in which we are also told this final kingdom is the one Christ rules and reigns, If the final kingdom mentioned is a spiritual kingdom made up of real people, (see Dan. 2:44) then it only stands to reason that the kingdoms portayed in Daniel will come out of the Empires that birthed them, guess which one came out of Rome? Revelations is better understood through reading Daniel, as we see the beast in Revelations is made up of parts of each previous beast, (Rev.13) like a leopard (hidden and elusive),feet of a bear, mouth of a lion.....(see Dan.7:3-6)

 

[Barraco]

Hi Eclipse,

In attempt to defend my interpretation that the seven churches represent seven eras in church history, I’ll be answering it directly last after I give my reason why I do not believe preterism is a satisfactory interpretation of Revelation. I’ll be using the Bible as well as outside sources do so.

Reason #: If everything did happen in the first century and the messages are only to be used as inspiration, then what is there to say about the last two thousand years of Christian history? Did Christ not have anything to say to the Trinitarians when the Arians applied for state-sponsored religion? Did Christ not have anything to say when the Pope struck a deal with Charlemagne to upset the Eastern Empire in making him the Western Emperor in exchange for freedoms and protection? Did Christ not have anything to say to the Church regarding their treatment of the Waldenses as they were being killed for possessing their own Bibles and selling their possessions to give money to the poor? And did Christ not have anything to say when Martin Luther nailed his 95 Theses to the church doors at Wittenberg accusing the Papacy of remaining silent on the abuse of indulgences? All of these things were major moments in Church history that I think Jesus would have been interested enough to speak his mind on to Christians of those times.

Reason #2:If everything did happen in the first century, why has Christ not come back by now? And what can you use to support your answer?

Reason #3:If everything did happen in the first century, please show me where the seventh seal, the following seven trumpets, and the seven final plagues were fulfilled. If everything was to happen to bring about the end of the Roman Empire, or at least the supremacy of Christ over Rome, then Jesus would have come back by now. This was what led many to believe that Jesus’ return would be spiritual, even though Scripture explicitly states that Jesus’ return would be literal and physical.

According to the preterist, what was the star that poisoned the waters, or 200 million horsemen that killed 1/3 of the world with fire, smoke, and brimstone in one hour? What was the great battle of Armageddon and when did 100lb hailstones fall on men? When did the return of Christ happen?

Reason #4: If everything was fulfilled in the first century, what were the ten horns of the beast? What were the seven heads? What was the mortal wound that was healed, and what was the second beast of Revelation 13?

These are only a few examples of why I can’t bring myself to embrace preterism.

Now, to respond to my own reasons, I’ll explain what led me to embrace historicism from a distance.

For Reason #1: If indeed everything did not happen in the first century and Christ was concerned about his followers throughout the centuries, then He would have spoke a message valid for those people in those times specifically, just as he did for Israel when He sent the prophet Daniel. That means that the era in which people stopped spreading the Gospel in accordance with Matthew 22:1-14 because they were being persecuted, they would be given a sign that Jesus would take their lampstand away if they did not repent. That means that the era in which the Catholic Church was playing political whoredom with the surrounding kings would have been told that those who did not practice such things should hold fast to what they have been doing until that institution would be thrown into slumber and the kings of the earth punished (the message to the church in Thyatira). That also means that in the era where the Church made more wealth that can possibly be imagined that Christ would have a great deal to say about where their hearts lie when he shows them the fifth trumpet in which all the investments of men are destroyed (as He said, “Buy from me gold refined in the fire,” not “buy from your investors gold fashioned in coins for the protection of your family.&#8221

For Reason #2: If everything did not happen in the first century, then there is still prophecy remaining to be fulfilled before Christ’s return, or as Matthew 22:9-10 put it, people are still being gathered to the wedding banquet before the King comes in. Christ is still, as David put it, making the world’s governments God’s footstool. Christ is still, calling all to repentance and the Holy Spirit is still convicting the world of sin. In order to support preterism, one would have to ignore Paul’s statements on the restoration of Israel (“Has God given up on Israel? By no means!&#8221. They would also have to ignore 2 Thessalonians 2 about the lawless one entering into the Church proclaiming himself to be God and deceiving many (the one that is destroyed by Christ’s coming).

For Reason #3: If everything did not happen in the first century, then that means that Revelations has been being fulfilled over the course of 2,000 years, and not allotted for just 70 years after Jesus or 7 years at some point in the future. It also tells every generation that Jesus has not left them, that He hears their prayers, that He sees their afflictions and gives them white robes. It tells every Christian in Church history how they ought to repent and what would happen if they did not (which is a loving thing to do).

For Reason #4: If everything wasn’t fulfilled in the first century, then one doesn’t have to stretch history or omit historical facts in order to find something as the fulfillment. Did Nero resurrect from the dead? No. Did Domitian? No. Did the Roman Empire? Yes. When? 800 CE, when the title of Augustus was applied to Charlemagne of the Frankish kingdom. What were the ten horns? Were they ten Roman Emperors? No. If so, who? All my counts led me to have to accept that the ten horns were not ten men. How, then, would the preterist apply this? The Roman Empire that is described in Revelation 13 goes well beyond the first and second centuries. There is much that the preterist can only over-symbolize without a sufficient argument to explain these things.

Those are only a few reasons why preterism doesn’t make work for me. And my interpretation of futurism is that it is a method that lumps all of the End Times events into one 7-year period. This view is one I strongly disagree with (leaving the question, “What about the last two thousand years of Christian suffering?&#8221

And finally to answer why I believe that there are seven eras of Church history. Because Christ’s kingdom was already established when He was resurrected and ascended to the right hand of the Father Almighty to rule over all the earth (as demonstrated by receiving the scroll in Revelation 5 and opening that scroll in chapters 6-11). All the Church was doing was, in accordance in Matthew 22:9-10, gathering everyone they could, both good and bad, to participate in the kingdom of heaven which was already being held. Matthew 22 put it in a way that showed that the feast was already going on but that those who were originally invited (the Jewish nation) would not come, but instead persecuted and killed the servants (the apostles and disciples). Jesus got angry and sent His troops (in this case, the Roman Empire) to destroy those murderers (The Jewish religious leaders, Matthew 23:29-35) and their city (Jerusalem, Matthew 23:37-38) This happened in 70 CE when the Roman Empire destroyed Jerusalem and exiled the Jewish people. Then, the King sent servants out to the main roads and highways to find everyone they could, both good and bad, to participate in the feast. However, we all know that the celebration doesn’t happen until the King comes in (or the return of Christ happens).

So I believe that everyone has been being gathered, and even now the Prophecies of the People of Israel are coming true. Otherwise, how do you explain Jesus saying that the generation he spoke to in Matthew 24:34-35 saw his return without tasting death? And heaven and earth? They still exist. Only one of three answers would make sense: 1) The author of Matthew erred in saying Jesus would return by the end of the 1st century. 2) Jesus’ return already happened and we missed it. 3) Jesus meant something else.

I’m leaning toward answer 3.

 

[Achilles6129]

There are six colors of the spectrum visible to the naked eye. Noah saw these in the rainbow. Gen.9;13

There are three primary colors - blue, yellow and red
And these are interspaced by the three colors composed of them being "purple, green and orange." Do you think that this is significant?

No, I'm not sure I see the significance there.

I believe John is describing modern weaponry in Revelation 9 (the plague we are talking about). The addition of ICBM missiles by Barraco was an interesting one that I think is probably significant. It seems obvious that there is a nuclear war going on in Revelation 9.

However, Barraco says that this happens during one hour. Here is something that may interest him - the hour in Revelation is actually 42 months:

"10Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." Rev. 3:10

This can only be describing the tribulation, which, as we know, lasts for 42 months:

"12And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. " Rev. 17:12

This does not mean that every reference to hour must equal 42 months in Revelation, but in these passages it clearly does. The "hour of God's judgment" in Rev. 14 is also symbolic of the 42 months of judgment (tribulation).

More specifically, we are not told how long the nuclear war in Rev. 9 takes place. However, there are evidently 200 million combatants. John's description of the event is probably a mish-mash of weaponry/uniforms of the combatants, in my opinion.

I disagree with the interpretation that some of Revelation has already been fulfilled. I believe that it has all yet to be fulfilled. I believe that the rider on the white horse in Rev. 6 is the AC.

 

[Barraco]

No, I'm not sure I see the significance there.

I believe John is describing modern weaponry in Revelation 9 (the plague we are talking about). The addition of ICBM missiles by Barraco was an interesting one that I think is probably significant. It seems obvious that there is a nuclear war going on in Revelation 9.

Thanks Achilles. I have something to comment about that below.

However, Barraco says that this happens during one hour. Here is something that may interest him - the hour in Revelation is actually 42 months:

If it truly is talking about nuclear war, I think its safer to say that it literally is one hour. That is how nuclear warfare is. Nuclear war doesn't last 3.5 years. It lasts hours, at most days. That is the concept of 'mutually assured destruction.'

"10Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." Rev. 3:10

Interesting relation. Perhaps it has something to do with it.

This can only be describing the tribulation, which, as we know, lasts for 42 months:

I disagree. There is nothing in the Bible that suggests that a tribulation must last 42 months. The last one on record was when Antiochus Epiphanes persecuted the Jews and defiled the temple.

"12And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. " Rev. 17:12

Revelation 17, I believe, is talking about a different beast than Revelation 13. The focus isn't the beast as much as it is the Mystery Babylon.

This does not mean that every reference to hour must equal 42 months in Revelation, but in these passages it clearly does. The "hour of God's judgment" in Rev. 14 is also symbolic of the 42 months of judgment (tribulation).

Again, I disagree. If someone doesn't already believe that there is a coming tribulation that must last 42 months, then there is nothing that emphatically expresses it.

More specifically, we are not told how long the nuclear war in Rev. 9 takes place. However, there are evidently 200 million combatants. John's description of the event is probably a mish-mash of weaponry/uniforms of the combatants, in my opinion.

I honestly believe that it is saying that the four angels fight with the power of 200 million horse men since it indicates that both the four angels and the 200 million horsemen kill 1/3 of humanity with fire, smoke, and brimstone. They are both referencing the same acting agent.

I disagree with the interpretation that some of Revelation has already been fulfilled. I believe that it has all yet to be fulfilled. I believe that the rider on the white horse in Rev. 6 is the AC.

Then what was the last 2,000 years for?

 

[eclipsenow]

Hi Eclipse,


Reason #: If everything did happen in the first century and the messages are only to be used as inspiration, then what is there to say about the last two thousand years of Christian history? Did Christ not have anything to say to the Trinitarians when the Arians applied for state-sponsored religion? Did Christ not have anything to say when the Pope struck a deal with Charlemagne to upset the Eastern Empire in making him the Western Emperor in exchange for freedoms and protection? Did Christ not have anything to say to the Church regarding their treatment of the Waldenses as they were being killed for possessing their own Bibles and selling their possessions to give money to the poor? And did Christ not have anything to say when Martin Luther nailed his 95 Theses to the church doors at Wittenberg accusing the Papacy of remaining silent on the abuse of indulgences? All of these things were major moments in Church history that I think Jesus would have been interested enough to speak his mind on to Christians of those times.

It was God's choice to inspire John to write Revelation to prepare John's generation for the coming suffering. It's more than just a 'timetable' of the suffering to come, but a lesson for all generations of Christians using the suffering of John's generation as a lesson. God was writing the gospel into that generation; using apocalyptic literature they were comfortable with. Jesus also warns us that there will be persecution, that they would hate the disciples as well because they first hated the Lord. But John takes that language and spells it out in terms they were familiar with. He does NOT start writing about stuff that was to happen 2000 years later!

As to all the other theological crisis you mention, why is anything else needed? We have the bible, which is enough. 2 Timothy 3:16.

16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
Not a little bit equipped; not partially equipped, not 'still relying on fresh visions from God'; but thoroughly equipped. It's a doctrine called Sola Scriptura and I'm proud to hold it. Our Protestant heritage has a history of martyrs burnt at the stake for daring to hold to Sola Sriptura, and I'm not about to abandon it now.
Sola scriptura - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Why did God end the bible where He did, and not continue writing new words of advice for us till this day? Because Jesus was God's WORD, the point and purpose and means of the gospel being fulfilled. After Jesus, the disciples were just so busy preaching this gospel that they only stopped to write it down decades later when they realised the original eyewitnesses were starting to die off! Why no new word of God since then? Because, as Jesus said dying on the cross, it is finished!

Reason #2:If everything did happen in the first century, why has Christ not come back by now? And what can you use to support your answer?

The only reason you are asking this question is because you're still reading Revelation as a timetable. Break out of that. John writes a highly structured set of events in the 4 main themes I mentioned above, and seems to pick and choose between a bunch of events; some of which might have already been under way depending on when you think Revelation was written. John writes to compassionately warn his generation of Christians to be prepared, and to explain that the Messiah has not failed. And he reminds them of the gospel; that one day Jesus will return.

When the historical background to all these events is unpacked I doubt that it will work in a chronological order. These are THEMES John is writing about, and how Christians are to respond.

7 Seals depicting TYRANNY; Rev 6-7
7 trumpets depicting CHAOS IN CREATION 8-11
7 signs depicting PERSECUTION OF BELIEVERS 12-14
7 plagues depicting DESTRUCTION OF THE EARTH 15-16

John may have been drawing from Nero's persecutions, various terrible earthquakes at the time, tyrant governments, and even Mount Vesivius exploding. But he did so in a stylised manner. They're not a future timetable but a sermon analogy! That's why I'm so disturbed by people trying to ring a future timetable out of Revelation; it wasn't even a timetable for John's own day! It was a general warning, a sounding of the alarm, that persecution was imminent, natural disasters were imminent, tyrants would abound, and the earth would be laid waste.

But hold fast Christian, because the gospel is still true. The Lord will return! Revelation is just the gospel in Manga-word form.

Reason #3:If everything did happen in the first century, please show me where the seventh seal, the following seven trumpets, and the seven final plagues were fulfilled. If everything was to happen to bring about the end of the Roman Empire, or at least the supremacy of Christ over Rome, then Jesus would have come back by now. This was what led many to believe that Jesus’ return would be spiritual, even though Scripture explicitly states that Jesus’ return would be literal and physical.

See my previous post. It outlines the book of Revelation in more detail. This is apocalyptic language using Jewish number symbolism to preach a last gospel sermon to John's generation. After we understand some of the symbolism (and some particulars might be lost, while the overall vibe is still intact) we can apply Revelation to our generation in much the same way as we might apply Galations, or Ephesians, or Corinthians, or any other book written to a specific church or a specific context of the people of God.

According to the preterist, what was the star that poisoned the waters, or 200 million horsemen that killed 1/3 of the world with fire, smoke, and brimstone in one hour? What was the great battle of Armageddon and when did 100lb hailstones fall on men? When did the return of Christ happen?

First of all I'd love you to address the particulars of Revelation 1 before I have to address the meaning of every particular symbol in Revelation. "soon" and "the time is near" are the key words you need to address.

But, as a general comment, I'd say they happened, it's just that we have trouble with the symbolism! EG: Are there REALLY 7 eyes and horns on Jesus head? Are there REALLY only 144 thousand people in heaven? No! Those numbers and symbols ARE OBVIOUSLY symbolic! Horns = power, and Jesus has God's PERFECT amount of power. (7 = perfection). Eyes = omniscience and knowledge, and Jesus has God's PERFECT amount of knowledge. It's all knowledgeable. 144 thousand people = 12 tribes times 12 Apostles times 1000, the FULL number. It's the perfect amount of God's old covenant people and the perfect amount of God's new covenant people times the fullness of God. Not one will be lost. That is the message.

The hail? First of all let's remember that Chapter 16 is the beginning of the "end of the physical world" stuff, the end of the old creation which must pass before the new heavens and new earth of later chapters. But it's not a timetable, and picks various events to add to the theme of physical destruction.

As Dr Barnett says: "John draws extensively on Genesis 1 and Exodus 7-11. Sores, blood, darkness and hailstones were directed towards the people of Egypt as now they will be towards the people of the world."

It's picture language for terrible things happening that remind us the world is ending, the old seats of power are being uprooted, there is no 'eternal city' like Rome / Babylon, and only God's kingdom will remain intact at the end. It's picture language from the Exodus, and so when picture language upon picture language is quoted; we are to take the meaning clearly without getting hung up on the symbols. The world will 'end' in judgement and the Lord will return.

While the final judgement day is still to come the 'hail' itself may have already happened. I can't find the specific quote just now, and have wasted 30 minutes trying to find it, but I specifically remember Paul Barnett (a theologian and respected professional historian who taught at our local university) saying there was a Roman battle against a Jewish outpost where the Romans mined a local marble quarry for their catapults. They hurled beautiful marble shot at the Jews. It rained giant 'hail'. It happened. It's a historical example of the kind of imagery John wants to bring to mind to mean 'big, bad things' and chaos and death and the end of everything you know. Until.

Until the Lord builds it again.

It's the gospel, as I said.

Reason #4: If everything was fulfilled in the first century, what were the ten horns of the beast? What were the seven heads? What was the mortal wound that was healed, and what was the second beast of Revelation 13? These are only a few examples of why I can’t bring myself to embrace preterism.

1. If this is all yet to happen, then aren't you really still a futurist?

2. The 10 horns are in the middle of the 12-14 'gospel history' that John pauses to write. Go back and look at 12. It's Jesus being born, and King Herod trying to kill him, and Jesus fleeing, and ... "Finally, to bring them up to date, John describes how persecution has now spread from Judaea to the place for which his book is being written, proconsular Asia. Our author has written a mini-history of early Christianity covering a historical span of 100 years".

See it? It's placed it in the context of John's generation yet again, with 12 clearly anchoring this section in the birth of Jesus. And yet again, it is all about the gospel. When Jesus died and rose again, we get 12:10

Revelation 12:10
New International Version (NIV)
10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:

“Now have come the salvation and the power
and the kingdom of our God,
and the authority of his Messiah.
For the accuser of our brothers and sisters,
who accuses them before our God day and night,
has been hurled down.

That is, we are saved. We are God's kingdom on earth.

Now, to the 10 horns. We know horns are symbolic of power, as we saw in Daniel's visions, especially the boastful horn. Jesus had 7 horns. When we see that John was writing about what was to happen SOON, because the time was NEAR, and then John anchors 12-14 as a mini-history of the gospel generation and the gospel itself, the sea-best and horns are obvious. They are a power in competition with God, Rome!! It comes up out of the sea, much like the Roman Galleons would land soldiers and attack Rome's enemies.

Domition the Roman Emperor had the empire declare him to be "Lord and God!" and so the SEVEN HEADS (remember Jesus 7 eyes and 7 horns) and 10 horns are pretensions to divinity. (10 horns? It's pretending to have more power than Jesus?!) Nero had an unsuccessful suicide attempt, and there were even rumours that Nero would come back from death to haunt his enemies. John is playing on this to refer to Nero as a false-Christ, complete with 7 heads, more horns than Jesus (but crowned, showing preoccupation with worldly power and bling rather than true servant hood power of Jesus) AND even a fake death & resurrection!

The sea-beast is Rome, but because this is to ALL churches of ALL ages, it also represents any 'beast government' who persecutes the people of God. The imagery and specific examples are for John's age, but the application is to all ages.

About Reason 1:
The premise is wrong so I don't need to critique the details. You haven't proved John was writing about things that were to happen centuries later, it was SOON, it was not lifetimes away, but the time was NEAR.

About Reason 2:
Incorrect premise again! There is no theological reason why the Lord could not have returned sometime after the gospel reached Rome. That was pretty much the 'ends of the earth' from a Jewish perspective. In Acts 1:8 Jesus predicts the Holy Spirit will give them power to take the gospel through Jerusalem (home), Samaria (people they don't like very much) and the ends of the earth... Rome. From the spiritual capital of the ancient world, Jerusalem, the birthplace of Christianity, to the spiritual end of the world, Rome. I think Acts 1:8 is probably the last prophecy that had to be fulfilled before the Lord could return. The Christians at Corinth certainly expected him to return, so much so that Paul rebuked them for being lazy and not working hard enough! They thought they didn't have to work, because the Lord was due back any day!

About Reason 3:
Why can't we trust in God's word that Jesus hears our prayers and loves and saves us if we keep trusting in him and stay faithful to the end? Why can't we trust these things based on other CLEARER parts of the New Testament that tell us exactly that? Why are these things attached particularly to your eschatology? The irony here is that only a truly Amil Preterist position CLEARLY shows Revelation teaching all these things to all ages of the church. Your position breaks Revelation up into chunks that apply and do not apply to us yet. So why bother with it? It's all too hard, and one person's timeline is as good as any other. Why should I believe yours? Laodicea, when most of the world's Christians are poor? Really?

 

[earagun]

Simple end to this arguement!....Jesus refers to what the Prophet Daniel said concerning end times (Mathew 24:15) the abomination of desolation. So its plain to see that Revelations and Daniel are referencing the same account. Its easy to read the last chapter of Daniel, and plainly see that the events of the anti-christ are immediently followed with the books being opened and folks being resurrected. Understanding Revelations, is understanding Daniel, the two books are about the same events

 

[Barraco]

It was God's choice to inspire John to write Revelation to prepare John's generation for the coming suffering. It's more than just a 'timetable' of the suffering to come, but a lesson for all generations of Christians using the suffering of John's generation as a lesson. God was writing the gospel into that generation; using apocalyptic literature they were comfortable with. Jesus also warns us that there will be persecution, that they would hate the disciples as well because they first hated the Lord. But John takes that language and spells it out in terms they were familiar with. He does NOT start writing about stuff that was to happen 2000 years later!

I didn't say that Revelation only entails things that happen 2,000 years later. Again, you are starting with the disrespectful tone. If you can't talk about this without being a bully, then I don't see the point in talking about it.

As to all the other theological crisis you mention, why is anything else needed? We have the bible, which is enough. 2 Timothy 3:16.

16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
Not a little bit equipped; not partially equipped, not 'still relying on fresh visions from God'; but thoroughly equipped. It's a doctrine called Sola Scriptura and I'm proud to hold it. Our Protestant heritage has a history of martyrs burnt at the stake for daring to hold to Sola Sriptura, and I'm not about to abandon it now.
Sola scriptura - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_scriptura>

Why did God end the bible where He did, and not continue writing new words of advice for us till this day? Because Jesus was God's WORD, the point and purpose and means of the gospel being fulfilled. After Jesus, the disciples were just so busy preaching this gospel that they only stopped to write it down decades later when they realised the original eyewitnesses were starting to die off! Why no new word of God since then? Because, as Jesus said dying on the cross, it is finished!

I'm not disagreeing with any of that Eclipse.

The only reason you are asking this question is because you're still reading Revelation as a timetable. Break out of that. John writes a highly structured set of events in the 4 main themes I mentioned above, and seems to pick and choose between a bunch of events; some of which might have already been under way depending on when you think Revelation was written. John writes to compassionately warn his generation of Christians to be prepared, and to explain that the Messiah has not failed. And he reminds them of the gospel; that one day Jesus will return.

I have to disagree with you. If you read the messages to the seven churches, only three of the seven were facing persecution. Out of the 22 chapters in Revelation, only 2 of them mention persecution. That leads me to believe that Revelation wasn't just a warning to persecuted Churches. And I disagree with your themes break down.

When the historical background to all these events is unpacked I doubt that it will work in a chronological order.

There are several things in Revelation that are chronological. For example, each breaking of a seal is followed by another. That is chronological. Each trumpet blast is followed by another. That is chronological. Each plague is followed by another. Chronological. The 1,000 reign of Christ is followed by the gathering of Gog and Magog.

These are THEMES John is writing about, and how Christians are to respond.

7 Seals depicting TYRANNY; Rev 6-7
7 trumpets depicting CHAOS IN CREATION 8-11
7 signs depicting PERSECUTION OF BELIEVERS 12-14
7 plagues depicting DESTRUCTION OF THE EARTH 15-16

I disagree with your themes. Here is how I view the themes:

God's Supremacy over the world's governments; Chapters 4-11
Persecution of the Saints; Chapters 12-14
Revenge against the persecutors; Chapters 15-18
The return of Christ and the setting up of His kingdom; Chapters 19-20
The new creation and fulfillment of all of God's promises; Chapters 21-22

John may have been drawing from Nero's persecutions, various terrible earthquakes at the time, tyrant governments, and even Mount Vesivius exploding. But he did so in a stylised manner. They're not a future timetable but a sermon analogy! That's why I'm so disturbed by people trying to ring a future timetable out of Revelation; it wasn't even a timetable for John's own day! It was a general warning, a sounding of the alarm, that persecution was imminent, natural disasters were imminent, tyrants would abound, and the earth would be laid waste.

You have to have patience with other people Eclipse. They have just as much right to interpret as you. You have been kind of disrespectful to anyone that sees things differently.

I believe that a time table is presented in Revelation as well as sermon analogy. Full Preterism doesn't work. Neither does full futurism or full historicism. I'm convinced and I don't need to feel sorry for that. And I don't need to yell at you or tear you down for believing in something else.

But hold fast Christian, because the gospel is still true. The Lord will return! Revelation is just the gospel in Manga-word form.

Hold fast is relative to the circumstance each Christian faces. That was my point about the messages to the seven churches, as even you agreed with. While American Churches are often like Laodicea, Pakistani churches are very much like Smyrna.

See my previous post. It outlines the book of Revelation in more detail. This is apocalyptic language using Jewish number symbolism to preach a last gospel sermon to John's generation. After we understand some of the symbolism (and some particulars might be lost, while the overall vibe is still intact) we can apply Revelation to our generation in much the same way as we might apply Galations, or Ephesians, or Corinthians, or any other book written to a specific church or a specific context of the people of God.

So, let me see if I got this right. Jewish number symbolism is strictly being applied to Gentile readers? Am I reading you correctly? While I agree that some number symbolism is being used, I don't strictly say so. That is the flaw with strictly following a modern eschatological format (including preterism).

First of all I'd love you to address the particulars of Revelation 1 before I have to address the meaning of every particular symbol in Revelation. "soon" and "the time is near" are the key words you need to address.

I'd love to! I'll be quoting the Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24:29-35.

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Then he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near. So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates. Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away."

Basically, here, and one other place, Jesus says that there would be some listening to him that would not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in all his glory. That generation died in the first century, early second century at the latest. Since then, 18 centuries have passed and Jesus has still not returned. Even Revelation ends with John saying, "He who testifies to these things says, 'SURELY I AM COMING SOON.'"

So the, "soon" and "time is near" may need to be interpreted differently in order for it to fit to the Sola Scriptura doctrine.

But, as a general comment, I'd say they happened, it's just that we have trouble with the symbolism! EG: Are there REALLY 7 eyes and horns on Jesus head? Are there REALLY only 144 thousand people in heaven? No! Those numbers and symbols ARE OBVIOUSLY symbolic! Horns = power, and Jesus has God's PERFECT amount of power. (7 = perfection). Eyes = omniscience and knowledge, and Jesus has God's PERFECT amount of knowledge. It's all knowledgeable. 144 thousand people = 12 tribes times 12 Apostles times 1000, the FULL number. It's the perfect amount of God's old covenant people and the perfect amount of God's new covenant people times the fullnessof God. Not one will be lost. That is the message.

So, let me see if I got this right. You're going to criticize me on my interpretations, but yours aren't even complete?

The hail? First of all let's remember that Chapter 16 is the beginning of the "end of the physical world" stuff, the end of the old creation which must pass before the new heavens and new earth of later chapters. But it's not a timetable, and picks various events to add to the theme of physical destruction.

No, chapter 16 is the beginning of the punishment of the persecutors of God's people. Let's take a look:

Vs. 2 "So the first angel went and poured out his bowl on the earth, and harmful and painful sores came upon the PEOPLE WHO BORE THE MARK OF THE BEAST AND WORSHIPED ITS IMAGE."

Vs. 4-6. "The third angel poured out his bown into the revers and the springs of water, and they became blood. And I heard the angel in charge of the waters say, "Just are you, O Holy One, who is and who was, for you brought these judgments. For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets and you have given them blood to drink. It is what they deserve!"

Vs. 10-11. "The fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the BEAST, and its kingdom was plunged into darkness. People gnawed their tongues in anguish and cursed the God of heaven for their pain and sores. They did not repent of their deeds."

Vs. 13. "And I saw, coming out of the mouth of the DRAGON and out of the mouth of the BEAST and out of the mouth of the FALSE PROPHET, three unclean spirits like frogs."

Then it even talks about the destruction of Babylon, which as Revelation 17:6 shows was drunk with the blood of the saints. It isn't so simple to interpret and I don&#8217;t find good reason to believe it all happened in the first century.

As Dr Barnett says: "John draws extensively on Genesis 1 and Exodus 7-11. Sores, blood, darkness and hailstones were directed towards the people of Egypt as now they will be towards the people of the world."

I agree. Egypt was enslaving the Jews because of their ethnicity. And I believe that Rome did the same thing, all the way until the end of WWII. That is why I think Revelation 17 details a beast that the harlot Babylon rides on. Each head of the beast is king (and kingdom) that the city committed spiritual fornication with (mixing religion and politics) and persecuted God's people.