My wierd questions

[Suzannah]

I realize this is an odd question but here's why I am asking: Recently it was reported in news that the family of Bob Marley wanted to exhume his body and transfer it to Ethiopia for reburial in an Orthodox holy place. As it all turned out, his wife Rita later denied the rumour, and said that there were no plans to do so at this time.


My questions:
1. Is exhumation ever permitted and under what circumstances?
2. Are autopsies permitted?



As an aside, I really hope Rita Marley does transfer her husbands body to Ethiopia if it's permissable under Orthodox teaching. The Jamaican government and economy have made millions off this and are still trying to claim that he was never Orthodox, and that he was Rasta when he died...to me this is just political agenda and ignores the obvious. I think Rita should go for it!

 

[33ad]

I'm not an expert, but I don't know of any Canonical reason not to move his remains.

After all, they are really relics, and we in the Church are moving relics around quite often.

Just my 2cents worth.

Kolya

 

[Matrona]

My questions:
1. Is exhumation ever permitted and under what circumstances?
2. Are autopsies permitted?

1. Yes. Bishop St. RAPHAEL's (Hawaweeny) remains were exhumed relatively recently to move them from Brooklyn, NY to Ligonier, PA (the Antiochian Village). That is how they discovered that his remains are incorrupt. No one would have known otherwise. I believe it helped the case for his glorification.

2. Yes.

For the record, organ donation is also fine, although some Orthodox laypersons reject it (sorry, bad pun).

 

[Matrona]

Also, Bob Marley was Ethiopian Orthodox, so they may have different rules on exhumation and autopsies, so it is probably better to ask this in the Coptic forum. My answers are valid only for Eastern Orthodox.

 

[Suzannah]

Okay! Thanks to you both! Really appreciated ...

I am all the more for Rita doing this than ever now....I really hope she does.

May Berabe's memory be eternal!

 

[RobNJ]

Am I the only one who saw the thread title & approached with caution?

 

[DoubleDutch]

In Greece, exhumation is a normal practice. Read a beautiful story about this at http://www.eurekastreet.com.au/articles/0410bouras.html

 

[Eusebios]

Suzannah,
I don't know about the whole question of exhumation, however I do sahre your love of Nesta and hope and pray that he will indeed be moved to an orthodox burail site!\in Xp,
Eusebios.

 

[Jamelia]

Also, Bob Marley was Ethiopian Orthodox, so they may have different rules on exhumation and autopsies, so it is probably better to ask this in the Coptic forum. My answers are valid only for Eastern Orthodox.

I believe he was a Rastafarian.

It's difficult to properly understand Bob Marley's music without considering Rastafari. His spiritual beliefs are too well known to necessitate further explanation. It must be stated, however, that Rastafari is at the very core of the Wailers' music.
http://niceup.com/bmbio.html​

They believe that the late emperor of Ethopia, Haile Sleassie was some kind of religious icon. The get their name from him. Before he was crowned his name was Ras Tafari.

 

[Matrona]

I believe he was a Rastafarian.

Bob Marley converted to Ethiopian Orthodox before he died.

 

[MariaRegina]

Consider this:

Our bodies are sanctified by the Holy Sacraments of Baptism, Holy Communion and Holy Unction; therefore, some Orthodox theologians and Bishops are against organ donations, especialy when organ donations must be done before the person dies; i.e., while still on a ventilator to keep the organ 'alive'.

Before anyone gets upset, consider this: How can we place sanctified organs into the body of a non-Christian? This is the dilemna. Our body has become a Temple of the Holy Spirit. It's no longer ours, but Gods. We belong to God.

 

[Jamelia]

Bob Marley converted to Ethiopian Orthodox before he died.

Interesting. Do you have any sources?

 

[Xpycoctomos]

Consider this:

Our bodies are sanctified by the Holy Sacraments of Baptism, Holy Communion and Holy Unction; therefore, some Orthodox theologians and Bishops are against organ donations, especialy when organ donations must be done before the person dies; i.e., while still on a ventilator to keep the organ 'alive'.

Before anyone gets upset, consider this: How can we place sanctified organs into the body of a non-Christian? This is the dilemna. Our body has become a Temple of the Holy Spirit. It's no longer ours, but Gods. We belong to God.

I really don't see the dilemma. I agree with everyting you say in the highlighted blue parts. To add to it, I would say that it has never been "ours" but has always completely belonged to God. I believe that I am truely glorifying and honoring God if I decide to give my kidney while im living to someone who needs it to preserve their life. I believe I am glorifying God if scientists can study my eye after I am dead so that they can understand the eye better and work to cure blindness. And while there are some in the OC that prohibit this, I'm goign to go with Matrona on this and the other Orthodox (heirarchs and layity alike) that support it. There is too much theologizing here for me to see how it actually relates to the reality of saving someone's life. But who knows.. maybe in 6 months I'll see it your way and give a great big !

 

[Matrona]

Interesting. Do you have any sources?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_marley

 

[MariaRegina]

I really don't see the dilemma. I agree with everyting you say in the highlighted blue parts. To add to it, I would say that it has never been "ours" but has always completely belonged to God. I believe that I am truely glorifying and honoring God if I decide to give my kidney while im living to someone who needs it to preserve their life. I believe I am glorifying God if scientists can study my eye after I am dead so that they can understand the eye better and work to cure blindness. And while there are some in the OC that prohibit this, I'm goign to go with Matrona on this and the other Orthodox (heirarchs and layity alike) that support it. There is too much theologizing here for me to see how it actually relates to the reality of saving someone's life. But who knows.. maybe in 6 months I'll see it your way ...

Didn't the priest proclaim after your chrismation, "You are purified, illuminated, and sanctified."

Didn't you sing the baptismal hymn at Christmas, Theophany, Pascha and Pentecost: "All of you who have been baptized with Christ, have put on Christ. Alleluia."

With our baptism, we no longer belong to ourselves, but to Christ. This is the reason why (some/all) Orthodox Bishops have declared that we really should not embalm or cremate those who have fallen asleep in Christ (unless we are legally required to do so).

We are members of the Body of Christ. Not only our souls but also our body is purified, illuminated and sanctified by receving Holy Baptism, Holy Communion, Holy Unction, Holy Matrimony, etc. Or do you think as the Manichean heterodox do, that our body is somehow evil, vile, and corrupt, and that somehow only our soul is purified by the Holy Mysteries.

Why is our whole body immersed during Holy Baptism? Why not only our heads as the Latins used to do?

This is something that is very Eastern Orthodox and very profound theologically, and I really didn't understand it until just lately.

OUR BODIES ARE HOLY, because we have received Christ in the Eucharist. GOD IS DWELLING WITHIN US.

Now would you put an organ that has been dedicated and sanctified to the Lord in the body of a non-believer who might even hate God?

Couldn't that be comparable to a sacrilege?

Should a heart that loves Christ be placed within the body of a person who hates Christ?

 

[Xpycoctomos]

Now would you put an organ that has been dedicated and sanctified to the Lord in the body of a non-believer who might even hate God?

I guess so, I mean, hopefully it will bless them.. give them that much more time to repent. Maybe they will find out that I was Orthodox and loved people regardless of their relgion so I signed the little thingy on the back of my liscense. The fact that the Orthodox Church does not have ONE voice on this matter tells me there are other ways to look at it that are just as valid. I, for one, will take the choice that I see as compassionate (and i think it is very theoloigically sound). Would I risk my life to save someone who was about to get hit by a bus... even if he or she hated Christ... I would hope so, but I don't know know that I am that holy.

This is my point of view. Apparently your point of view is very well supported by the Orthodox Church and I'm not judging you for that at all. I know from many of your past posts that you are indeed a very compassionate and loving person. If you feel so convicted no to donate your organs, and this is supported by the OC (which it seems it is), I would think you almost have the duty to do so so as not to sin against your conscience. I happen not to be bound by this and, actually I feel bound to donating my organs to help others since it seems the Church also supports this view. Again, I might see it your way in the future... but this would probably have to be after a process that only experience and time can provide.



Respectfully,

John

 

[Oblio]

Do we not put a drop of Holy water into unsanctified water to make Prosphora ? Just a random thought

I had heard that one of the reasons against oragan donation is that some donations can only be made when the death is planned IOW, the organ has to be taken while the donor is alive, and the donor (even though ultimately terminal), bereft of a vital organ(s) donated, dies. The Theological ramifications of this, if true, are to say the least, enormous.

 

[Xpycoctomos]

Do we not put a drop of Holy water into unsanctified water to make Prosphora ? Just a random thought

I had heard that one of the reasons against oragan donation is that some donations can only be made when the death is planned IOW, the organ has to be taken while the donor is alive, and the donor (even though ultimately terminal), bereft of a vital organ(s) donated, dies. The Theological ramifications of this, if true, are to say the least, enormous.

I'd have to go with you on that one. A lot of times they are given to research though and these kinds of research are the reasons (direct or indirect) that our medical community has been able to understand how the body works on a deeper level and how we can go about preserving the lives of others through new surgeries or medicines. I forgt if I mentioned it, but I would also support kindey and bonemarrow translplants (or any other non-lethal transplants that are done while you are still living).

John

 

[OrthodoxServant86]

All I know is that if I were to know I was going to die in advance, I would definately sign up as an organ donor (I mean, if I were hit by a bus or something, then I don't think it would matter). This I do as what I conceive to be a human duty; to pass on the physical sustenance we have cultivated through prayer, fasting and the mysteries on to those who could make better use of them (ideally, children and those with incurable diseases rather than people who had "used up" their organs through gluttony and licensciousness). If there are canons or pastoral condemnations of organ donation, I would have to say I as an individual would need to accept anathema for it (ie, let God be the judge, as the word anathema suggests).

But an even wierder question on this little tangent conversation that has developped: what if someone were to donate their heart at death, only to be canonized at some point while the organ recipeant were still alive? He would be literally walking around "with the heart of a saint." After he died, would the heart be accepted as a relic of the original owner, that is, the saint?

hmm

Love and peace,

-Justin

 

[Nickolai]

I'll post a little parragraph that my Priest wrote for the Parish newsletter one time.

Q) How does the Orthodox Church view organ transplants?
The Orthodox Church has not dogmatically addressed the contemporary question of organ transplants other than to address some of the ethical dilemmas raised by some transplant procedures, namely, heart, brain, and fetal tissue transplants. Such transplants are generally forbidden, because they involve portions of the body directly related to man's life, the heart is traditionally seen as the center of man's being, the dwelling place of the soul and thus cannot be transferred to another. The brain is the center of man's intellect, the place where his knowledge of personhood and identity is, and are not transferable to another. With fetal brain tissue transplants an additional ethical question is raised, that is as to how such tissue is received, abortion - a method used for obtaining such tissue - is seen by the Church as the taking of an innocent life and is forbidden. Other organ transplants, such as liver, cornea, lung, etc. are viewed as permissible provided they do not involve the taking of a life. It must be understood that this permissibility is understood as one freely sharing his life with another, and does not allow for the morbid practice of selling organs, or of intentionally harming others to help oneself or a loved one. As this issue is one constantly in flux as modern medical procedures develop, the Church addresses the issues of organ transplant on a case by case basis, thus insuring the welfare of the faithful and the donor are safeguarded, one considering a transplant should consult your parish priest for additional insight, guidance, and help.