My way or the highway?

[Londongal]

question has been asked a gazillion times im sure!
but.if jesus is the only way to god....what happened to the generations that never had the chance to hear about jesus...or indeed any ppl that havnt in this day and age?
i have heard the arguement that no one has an excuse to nt believe in god...as they can see his wonder in creation.and many ppls do believe ina creator god.
but still.....if a belief in JESUS ...as jesus hmself stated...iS the only way to god...then i assume those other ppl will be deemed damned?regardless of their acknowledgement of a creator?
and if that is NOT the case...then doesnt it makes jesus sacrifice superfluous to requirements ?

 

[revrobor]

question has been asked a gazillion times im sure!
but.if jesus is the only way to god....what happened to the generations that never had the chance to hear about jesus...or indeed any ppl that havnt in this day and age?
i have heard the arguement that no one has an excuse to nt believe in god...as they can see his wonder in creation.and many ppls do believe ina creator god.
but still.....if a belief in JESUS ...as jesus hmself stated...iS the only way to god...then i assume those other ppl will be deemed damned?regardless of their acknowledgement of a creator?
and if that is NOT the case...then doesnt it makes jesus sacrifice superfluous to requirements ?

Jesus is the only way to God because of what He did on the cross. That is what He meant by that statement. It has been wrongly taught for a long time that one's belief in Jesus is what saves them. What saves them is Jesus' sacrifice when one chooses to repent (turn from one's old ways) and follow God not a belief in Jesus A person is not required to know Jesus or to have ever heard of Him. What they must do is choose to follow God whether they have heard the Gospel or come to know God through His creation (as the Romans 1 verse says). The primary salvation verse is John 3:16 which has been erroneously taught for decades. Correctly taught is should read "for God so loved the world He gave His only Son that whosoever believes in Him (GOD) should not perish but have everlasting life". This does not diminish the role of Jesus in our salvation or remove Him from the triune Godhead. But correctly understanding these things will eliminate that perplexing question.

 

[CryptoLutheran]

question has been asked a gazillion times im sure!
but.if jesus is the only way to god....what happened to the generations that never had the chance to hear about jesus...or indeed any ppl that havnt in this day and age?
i have heard the arguement that no one has an excuse to nt believe in god...as they can see his wonder in creation.and many ppls do believe ina creator god.
but still.....if a belief in JESUS ...as jesus hmself stated...iS the only way to god...then i assume those other ppl will be deemed damned?regardless of their acknowledgement of a creator?
and if that is NOT the case...then doesnt it makes jesus sacrifice superfluous to requirements ?

It's important to understand that not all Christians subscribe to a theology that says "you must believe X, Y and Z about Jesus in order for God to let you into heaven".

To offer at least one example of the diversity of thought within the broad Christian tradition, the Roman Catholic Church has the concept of "invincible ignorance", where God does not hold a person responsible for something outside their control to know. A classic example would be someone living on a remote and isolated island. For such a person to be required to know of things he or she cannot know would be an act of an unkind and unjust God; in which case the person is ultimately judged on what they did know and how they did act in life. They may be oblivious to the idea of a penitent life of humility before God in Christ; but they would know that killing, deceiving or cheating their neighbor isn't good.

In the specific case of those whom Christians regard as the Old Testament Saints, the general idea is that they still trusted in the promises and words of God.

Another example comes from a Christian thinker from the 2nd century, St. Justin Martyr who wrote around the year 150. Justin specifically mentions Socrates as pious, who knew Christ without knowing Christ specifically:

"We have been taught that Christ is the first-born of God, and we have declared above that He is the Word of whom every race of men were partakers; and those who lived reasonably are Christians, even though they have been thought atheists; as, among the Greeks, Socrates and Heraclitus, and men like them; and among the barbarians, Abraham, and Ananias, and Azarias, and Misael, and Elias, and many others whose actions and names we now decline to recount, because we know it would be tedious." - St. Justin Marty, First Apology ch. 46

What Justin is saying here is that those who lived righteously knew God's Word--Christ--even before the Word became incarnate in the Person of Jesus Christ, going so far as to even designate Socrates a Christian on this account.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[papakapp]

Acts 17:26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. 28 ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’[b] As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’[c] 29 “Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by human design and skill. 30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”



Also, Paul teaches that Abraham was not justified by the law because he had faith before he had law and he was always only justified by faith. Really, all Abraham had to go on at first was faith in the creator God that you spoke of.

Romans 4:13 It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14 For if those who depend on the law are heirs, faith means nothing and the promise is worthless,

 

[wayseer]

question has been asked a gazillion times im sure!
but.if jesus is the only way to god....what happened to the generations that never had the chance to hear about jesus...or indeed any ppl that havnt in this day and age?
i have heard the arguement that no one has an excuse to nt believe in god...as they can see his wonder in creation.and many ppls do believe ina creator god.
but still.....if a belief in JESUS ...as jesus hmself stated...iS the only way to god...then i assume those other ppl will be deemed damned?regardless of their acknowledgement of a creator?
and if that is NOT the case...then doesnt it makes jesus sacrifice superfluous to requirements ?

Perhaps you need to catch up with the current theological debate. You might like to look at Nigel Leaves, Tyrone Inbody, Roger Haight, Marcus Borg, James Alison, Timothy Gorrige and on a good day, N.T. Wright - just to name a few. The debate is far more pluralistic than you might otherwise imagine.

 

[Verticordious]

Jesus is the only way to God because of what He did on the cross. That is what He meant by that statement. It has been wrongly taught for a long time that one's belief in Jesus is what saves them. What saves them is Jesus' sacrifice when one chooses to repent (turn from one's old ways) and follow God not a belief in Jesus A person is not required to know Jesus or to have ever heard of Him. What they must do is choose to follow God whether they have heard the Gospel or come to know God through His creation (as the Romans 1 verse says). The primary salvation verse is John 3:16 which has been erroneously taught for decades. Correctly taught is should read "for God so loved the world He gave His only Son that whosoever believes in Him (GOD) should not perish but have everlasting life". This does not diminish the role of Jesus in our salvation or remove Him from the triune Godhead. But correctly understanding these things will eliminate that perplexing question.

That is my understanding of scripture as well. It is not accepting Jesus that saves us, it is accepting what Jesus represents. The point is that God is the one who pays the punishment for sin, which he did when he became a man. We do are not saved by our own merit, but by his. Everyone is saved this same way, even those who lived long before Christ was born. People like David and Abraham understood that it was God's who provided the ultimate sacrifice. For example, God telling Abraham to sacrifice Issac, then providing a lamb in his place, is one of the many foreshadowings of Christ. Obviously not all Jews got the message, but some did.

The reason that Muslims are not saved isn't just because they reject Jesus, but because they reject the entire concept of God being the one who makes atonement for our sins. From the Muslims I've talked to, they simply pray to be forgiven, and reject the idea of any sacrifice for sins. Likewise, the reason that the Jews are not saved is not just because they rejected Jesus, but because they were instead looking for a savior who save them physically. The Jews are not simply skeptical that Jesus is the one who God sent to be the sacrifice for our sins, and that they're simply waiting for the true messiah to be the sacrifice for sins. The problem is that they were expecting the messiah to save them physically, and they rejected Jesus because he did not conquer the Romans and establish a physical kingdom like they wanted him to.

 

[Brady111]

The primary salvation verse is John 3:16 which has been erroneously taught for decades. Correctly taught is should read "for God so loved the world He gave His only Son that whosoever believes in Him (GOD) should not perish but have everlasting life".

Of course a simple reading of the context, before and after 3:16 renders your view false:

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

 

[Emmy]

Dear Londongal. The Old Testament speaks of a coming Messiah, who will give His life for all men and women. The New Testament tells us of Jesus giving His Life that we may have life eternal with God, our Heavenly Father. God`s Holy Law demanded a Sacrifice without any guilt whatsoever, and because there was no-one left without sin or transgression, Jesus died that we might live. Jesus our Saviour who carried our sins away. That makes Jesus our Way back to God. Those men and women who died, before Jesus lived and died for us, they were told of a coming Messiah, who would suffer and die for all Mankind, and He would be our Saviour. Isaiah, in the O.T. foretells it. Jesus is the Only Way because He gave His life for us, and He alone is Worthy to lead us back to God. Those believers before us, chose the ONLY WAY back to God, we call Him Jesus Christ our Saviour. The highway leads into Outer Darkness without God`s Love or Light. I say this humbly and with love, Londongal. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.

 

[Julian of York]

Dear Friend,
What does the Book say?
"I am the Way,the Truth and the Life;no man cometh unto the Father but by me."
"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life;and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life,but the wrath of God abideth on him."John 3:36
And what about other people who have not/will not hear the Gospel?
"What if God,willing to show His wrath, and to make His power known,endured with much lonsuffering the vessels of wrath,fitted to destruction?" Romans 9:22

I have been a Baptist all my life, and NEVER have I been a believer in ELECTION or PREDESTINATION. Until now. The only way I can understand the eternal punishment is :
1)God is Soverign, or "Universal Emperor". What He wants is right, and what He says is the truth.
2)Not everyone is willing to give up their sins and way of life for the Lord to take control. God knew ahead of the Creation, in Eternity Past, who would and who would not repent and believe.
3)He chose those people ("the Elect") to be reborn ("Born Again") and to be conformed to the image of Christ. Those people will be saved.
4)Those others that Christ did not choose, by His great power and love, will not be saved,but are "the vessels fitted to destruction."
Is that fair? Yes.
Did you know that people,like in America and Britain, who have heard about Jesus and rejected Him,are going to suffer far ,far more eternally than some witchdoctor in Outer Kumbayah. Therefore, it is the mercy of God that those who will NOT yield to God,as He well knows, know nothing about Him.They will be much better off eternally.
Let me say,though...You and I ae without excuse. WE KNOW. And if the Third World lost is really troubling you, I suggest you get right with God and get over there and get some SAVED now! You could,you know.


God Bless!
Julian of York
Isaiah 32:17

 

[good brother]

Jesus is the only way to God because of what He did on the cross. That is what He meant by that statement. It has been wrongly taught for a long time that one's belief in Jesus is what saves them. What saves them is Jesus' sacrifice when one chooses to repent (turn from one's old ways) and follow God not a belief in Jesus A person is not required to know Jesus or to have ever heard of Him. What they must do is choose to follow God whether they have heard the Gospel or come to know God through His creation (as the Romans 1 verse says). The primary salvation verse is John 3:16 which has been erroneously taught for decades. Correctly taught is should read "for God so loved the world He gave His only Son that whosoever believes in Him (GOD) should not perish but have everlasting life". This does not diminish the role of Jesus in our salvation or remove Him from the triune Godhead. But correctly understanding these things will eliminate that perplexing question.

That kind of thinking is dangerous. It negates several other passages of Scripture. Here are a couple of those passages:


Acts 4:11 Jesus is “‘the stone you builders rejected,
which has become the cornerstone.’ 12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”

And...

Romans 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”

This is the reason my signature line is what it is. This is why we need to be busy fulfilling the Great Commission.

“All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Sadly, we as Christians have become the "Great Omission" by drawing ourselves into the background and not making a huge fuss over this Jesus guy. We have allowed many false religions to rise because we (myself not only included, but directly preaching to) have not done what our LORD and savior has taught and told us to do.

We must tell the world about Jesus! He alone can save!

Love in the grace and mercy of our LORD and Savior, who reigns forever and ever! Who shed His precious blood on Calvary so that we might appear holy before the Father! Who the Father raised from the dead three days later that He would have victory over death and live forever!

Humbly, GB

 

[jonathan180iq]

Jesus' message was intended for a specific audience at a specific time. (Yes, it was once for all and for all mankind, but read the Bible in context.) When you quote passages from scripture like that, you have to know the context of the quote.

We are not judged because we don't hold a correct understanding of theology. And we are not saved by taking Bible classes or having the most knowledge about Christ. We are redeemed by Christ, whether or not we know about it. Christ's sacrifice applied to everyone from that point forward, even the ones who died on that day back in 33+/-AD whether they knew it or not. The early church had nothing but the word of the Apostles and some letters between churches to solidify their theology. Did that lack of information keep them from salvation?

 

[elman]

Jesus' message was intended for a specific audience at a specific time. (Yes, it was once for all and for all mankind, but read the Bible in context.) When you quote passages from scripture like that, you have to know the context of the quote.

We are not judged because we don't hold a correct understanding of theology. And we are not saved by taking Bible classes or having the most knowledge about Christ. We are redeemed by Christ, whether or not we know about it. Christ's sacrifice applied to everyone from that point forward, even the ones who died on that day back in 33+/-AD whether they knew it or not. The early church had nothing but the word of the Apostles and some letters between churches to solidify their theology. Did that lack of information keep them from salvation?

I agree and I would add that to understand how Jesus is the way look at the last judgment scene in Matt 25:31 and following. Notice that the sheep go to God through Jesus, but also notice the basis on which Jesus admits them to God is not related to their understanding of Jesus. Also look at James 3:2. It is not perfect theology that gives us hope of eternal life; it is obediance to the command of Jesus to love God and man--see First John.

 

[revrobor]

Of course a simple reading of the context, before and after 3:16 renders your view false:

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

"So must the Son of Man be lifted up" means He must rise from the dead in order to have victory over death. 17 means by what He has done. In 18 "name of the only Son of God" means the authority of Jesus just as "whatever you ask in my name" when we pray means by Jesus' authority we approach the Father not that we have to tack Jesus name on the end of our prayers. There are many of our spiritual forefathers who never heard the name of Jesus who will be with us in eternity because of what Jesus has done. For far too long there have been those who, in an apparent attempt to limit God's power and form some sort of exclusive club, have insisted one must know Jesus to be saved. Those who teach this have no answer for those who ask "What about those who never hear about Jesus?" It's well past time for those who teach this to ask GOD what He means by these Scriptures rather than parroting what they have heard. Romans 1:19-20 makes it clear that one can know God without ever hearing the name of Jesus. But the Bible also teaches that they are saved only because of what Jesus has done. Everyone is save by Jesus' sacrifice regardless of how they come to follow God. The teachings of the New Testament were given after Jesus' sacrifice to people who were familiar with Jesus and His followers and encouragement to follow Him is the same as encouragement to follow God. Jesus is God, He is our Savior and it is His sacrifice that saves us NOT our belief, NOT knowing His name and NOT believing this, that or the other thing about Jesus. What we learn about Jesus may help us grow spiritually but it will not save us.

 

[Brady111]

"So must the Son of Man be lifted up" means He must rise from the dead in order to have victory over death. 17 means by what He has done. In 18 "name of the only Son of God" means the authority of Jesus just as "whatever you ask in my name" when we pray means by Jesus' authority we approach the Father not that we have to tack Jesus name on the end of our prayers. There are many of our spiritual forefathers who never heard the name of Jesus who will be with us in eternity because of what Jesus has done. For far too long there have been those who, in an apparent attempt to limit God's power and form some sort of exclusive club, have insisted one must know Jesus to be saved. Those who teach this have no answer for those who ask "What about those who never hear about Jesus?" It's well past time for those who teach this to ask GOD what He means by these Scriptures rather than parroting what they have heard. Romans 1:19-20 makes it clear that one can know God without ever hearing the name of Jesus. But the Bible also teaches that they are saved only because of what Jesus has done. Everyone is save by Jesus' sacrifice regardless of how they come to follow God. The teachings of the New Testament were given after Jesus' sacrifice to people who were familiar with Jesus and His followers and encouragement to follow Him is the same as encouragement to follow God. Jesus is God, He is our Savior and it is His sacrifice that saves us NOT our belief, NOT knowing His name and NOT believing this, that or the other thing about Jesus. What we learn about Jesus may help us grow spiritually but it will not save us.

Well all of that is nice conjecture, but since both the English and Greek grammar are at odds with the above, I for one, must reject your interpretation in favor of the words and grammar that the author actually used.

In vs 15, regardless of whether "lifting up" refers to the cross or the resurrection, "hina pas ho pisteuoon en autoo" still refers to " ton Huion tou anthroopou."

In vs 16, John identifies two persons: God the Father and his only begotten son. It is clear that "hína pás ho pisteúoon eis auton" refers to "tón Huión tón monogeneé édooken" and not to "ho Theos" as you insisted in your previous post.

John could use no clearer words than he did in vs 18. John sets of an antithesis between those who "pisteuoon" and its negation, those who "mee pisteuoon." He also sets up an antithesis between the consequences of those positions; there are those who are "eedee kekritai" and those who are "ou krinetia." John also insists that neither category is empty. So, we have those who believe (have faith, trust in) the name (authority) of the only begotten Son and those who do not. Those who do believe in his name are not condemned, but those who do not believe, were and continue to be condemned; you can't get any clearer than "eedee kekritai."

Regarding the question, "What about those who never hear about Jesus?" what ever answer is given or if no answer is given, it does not give you the right to distort what John clearly states because it does not agree with your theology. Perhaps, instead of twisting the meaning of the scripture to the point that your interpretation has no correspondence to the words or the grammar, you should change your theology to match the scripture.

 

[revrobor]

It is neither my interpretation nor my theology.

 

[Brady111]

It is neither my interpretation nor my theology.

Well, whatever it is, what you wrote has no correspondence to the text.

 

[revrobor]

Perhaps you need to concern yourself less with what you perceive the text says and more with God's truth. God has not left millions without any chance of salvation as John 3:16 clearly states. "Whosoever" means anyone who turns to Him whether or not they have ever heard of Jesus.

 

[wayseer]

Perhaps you need to concern yourself less with what you perceive the text says and more with God's truth. God has not left millions without any chance of salvation as John 3:16 clearly states. "Whosoever" means anyone who turns to Him whether or not they have ever heard of Jesus.

... and a point many Christians somewhat conveniently overlook.

 

[Verticordious]

Well all of that is nice conjecture, but since both the English and Greek grammar are at odds with the above, I for one, must reject your interpretation in favor of the words and grammar that the author actually used.

In vs 15, regardless of whether "lifting up" refers to the cross or the resurrection, "hina pas ho pisteuoon en autoo" still refers to " ton Huion tou anthroopou."

In vs 16, John identifies two persons: God the Father and his only begotten son. It is clear that "hína pás ho pisteúoon eis auton" refers to "tón Huión tón monogeneé édooken" and not to "ho Theos" as you insisted in your previous post.

John could use no clearer words than he did in vs 18. John sets of an antithesis between those who "pisteuoon" and its negation, those who "mee pisteuoon." He also sets up an antithesis between the consequences of those positions; there are those who are "eedee kekritai" and those who are "ou krinetia." John also insists that neither category is empty. So, we have those who believe (have faith, trust in) the name (authority) of the only begotten Son and those who do not. Those who do believe in his name are not condemned, but those who do not believe, were and continue to be condemned; you can't get any clearer than "eedee kekritai."

Regarding the question, "What about those who never hear about Jesus?" what ever answer is given or if no answer is given, it does not give you the right to distort what John clearly states because it does not agree with your theology. Perhaps, instead of twisting the meaning of the scripture to the point that your interpretation has no correspondence to the words or the grammar, you should change your theology to match the scripture.

I agree with your grammatical analysis of these verses, but the question is: What is meant when it says "believe in the Son". Does it mean that we must believe that Jesus was born ~4-6 B.C., in Bethlehem, to Mary and Joseph, that he was a Jew, that he was a carpenter, etc, or does it mean that we must believe that God has sent a sacrifice on our behalf to be the atonement for our sins and that our salvation is only possible due to God's love and mercy, not because of anything that we have done? The latter, IMO.

 

[Brady111]

Perhaps you need to concern yourself less with what you perceive the text says and more with God's truth. God has not left millions without any chance of salvation as John 3:16 clearly states. "Whosoever" means anyone who turns to Him whether or not they have ever heard of Jesus.

Well, thanks for sharing your mere opinion. I think I will stick to what Christ said through His chosen Apostles. I have already shown from the Greek text that your interpretation of John 3:16 is wrong. If you would like to offer a counter argument based on the words, grammar and context of the Greek text, I am willing to consider it; but to simply accept your say-so and "what seem right in your eyes" is not something I am inclined to do. It has no persuasive power, it is not convincing, especially since the Greek text is as clear as it is. I mean, you don't need a PhD. in NT Greek to figure out that "believe (pisteuoon)" refers to Jesus, who is the one and only (monogenee) son of God, and not to "ho Theos."