My time machine

[Davian]

Ah, at long last something that appears to be a point.

Too bad it falls flat as a flounder. There never was any proof of any kind for a same state past at the dawn of creation from science.

Therefore it is not valid to try to compare that to something that has long been strongly supported and evidenced and observed such as the movements of the earth around the sun.

That strong support, evidence, and observations *are* the support for the "same state" past. You can't have it both ways.

As I pointed out, not only am I not defeated, but you just got the tar knocked out of your attempted reasoning.

Where?

 

[dad]

That strong support, evidence, and observations *are* the support for the "same state" past. You can't have it both ways.

Wrong, one can interpret evidence based on certain principles that one uses to do so. That is what science does. All the evidence is mine as much as yours. I also have history and God and the bible! The deck is stacked here.

Where?

Over where you tried to compare something that is well known to science, to something that science knows sweet tweet about.

 

[SkyWriting]

Just to be certain, in those experiments with the 2 clocks, was the one on the airplane ahead of or behind the one on the ground? I've been assuming it was behind the one on the ground. But I never really asked.

Here is a list of old and new tests:
Experimental Basis of Special Relativity

I've not tracked down the airliner test, nor do I remember if it tested speed changes or gravity changes. Both are supposed to have an effect.

Edit Here it is. A watch sitting on your head, runs faster than one on your ankle.
http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2010-09/superaccurate-clocks-prove-your-head-older-your-feet

 

[olderguy]

Here is a list of old and new tests:
Experimental Basis of Special Relativity

I've not tracked down the airliner test, nor do I remember if it tested speed changes or gravity changes. Both are supposed to have an effect.

Edit Here it is. A watch sitting on your head, runs faster than one on your ankle.
In Test of Relativity Theory, Superaccurate Atomic Clocks Prove Your Head Ages Nanoseconds Faster than Your Feet | Popular Science

I'm glad to see the clock on the plane moved slower than the 1 on the ground. If not a man on a rocket might age quicker than the rest of us. Other than children, no one wants to age more quickly.

I'm not sure what this new interest in time is all about. My older interest in time was inspired by Sci-Fi which indicates time is something that is like a place. Although not a place. For us mortal beings time is practical, and that's different. Using measurements of time to make a GPS work is a practical definition of time which is real. God created that kind of time for us, and He left it to us to discover it. The Bible makes it clear God put the Moon and Sun in their orbits to give us gross time. But this isn't time as a place.

If you want to discuss time travel then you want to be able to go backwards in time. Actually, we'd have to go both ways, but backwards is the critical direction. Even if you wanted to go forward to learn the results of a thing, what good is it if you can't come back to change it or prevent it?

There's too many variables for me to try and understand the minute differences with these clock experiments. To say time moves faster at my head than at my feet is ludicrous. Something is varying and that thing causes a difference in a clock, but I doubt it's time.

My other thought is that if you left of space journey at light speed I'm not sure you traveled though time. To really discuss this intelligently we need to see what is effected by doing this. Maybe things just age slower at super high speeds.

Finally, if we ever could move backwards in time it would be the most dangerous discovery ever made. Who could be trusted with such god-like abilities? I don't know of even 1 person I would trust to use such an ability and not use it for selfish purposes. Do you?

 

[dad]

If you want to discuss time travel then you want to be able to go backwards in time. Actually, we'd have to go both ways, but backwards is the critical direction.

I do not think God could allow sinful fallen man to do that in any real way. However, since time is just a feature of this temporary world as we know it, one suspects that moving across time will be easy in the world to come.

 

[Davian]

Wrong, one can interpret evidence based on certain principles that one uses to do so. That is what science does. All the evidence is mine as much as yours. I also have history and God and the bible! The deck is stacked here.

However, your interpretation of the evidence using the principle of "I am always right" does not make your claims accurate, but prideful.

Over where you tried to compare something that is well known to science, to something that science knows sweet tweet about.

You cannot show where?

 

[SkyWriting]

My other thought is that if you left of space journey at light speed I'm not sure you traveled though time. To really discuss this intelligently we need to see what is effected by doing this. Maybe things just age slower at super high speeds.

Yes, relative to slower speed. At light speed time stops.
Particles at very near light speed last longer/travel farther
than slower particles. The speed of your head is higher than
your feet due to the rotation angle.

But the lower gravity at your head may have an effect as well.
I don't recall which that experiment was checking.

 

[dad]

However, your interpretation of the evidence using the principle of "I am always right" does not make your claims accurate, but prideful.

I think you are wrong. If anyone has a bible case they can make it rather than whine.

You cannot show where?

You asked for proof that the world revolves, and that is well known. That is nothing like me asking for proof for a state that science claims and uses for all models. Be honest. Isn't it about time?

 

[florida2]

I'm not sure what this new interest in time is all about.

You were the one saying God wouldn't allow time travel. We have shown it happens all the time. Time is not an absolute thing.

My older interest in time was inspired by Sci-Fi which indicates time is something that is like a place. Although not a place. For us mortal beings time is practical, and that's different. Using measurements of time to make a GPS work is a practical definition of time which is real. God created that kind of time for us, and He left it to us to discover it. The Bible makes it clear God put the Moon and Sun in their orbits to give us gross time. But this isn't time as a place.

The GPS measurements have to take into account that compared to us time passes more slowly for the GPS satellites because of their high speed compared to us. An astronaut who spends time on the International Space Station will have aged slightly less than the people on the ground when he returns.

If you want to discuss time travel then you want to be able to go backwards in time. Actually, we'd have to go both ways, but backwards is the critical direction. Even if you wanted to go forward to learn the results of a thing, what good is it if you can't come back to change it or prevent it?

Oh, so you have to go backwards as well as forwards. Thanks for suddenly adding this to your definition when we've shown forward travel is everyday.

Backwards time travel is theoretically possible but likely practically impossible given our current understanding of physics.

There's too many variables for me to try and understand the minute differences with these clock experiments.

Such as?

To say time moves faster at my head than at my feet is ludicrous. Something is varying and that thing causes a difference in a clock, but I doubt it's time.

It may be ludicrous but it's true. It's so incredibly small that it's virtually impossible to measure but it's exactly what the physics predicts. When we carry out the experiments it's exactly what we find. I know you don't want to believe it's time, but it is.

Time dilation is very very weird and difficult to get your head around. However, it is a real thing and has been shown many times to take place. The theories of relativity are a huge part of modern physics and much of our science and technology relies on them.

My other thought is that if you left of space journey at light speed I'm not sure you traveled though time. To really discuss this intelligently we need to see what is effected by doing this. Maybe things just age slower at super high speeds.

Finally, if we ever could move backwards in time it would be the most dangerous discovery ever made. Who could be trusted with such god-like abilities? I don't know of even 1 person I would trust to use such an ability and not use it for selfish purposes. Do you?

No, I don't. Time travel into the past is fascinating to think about but would also raise huge problems!

 

[Davian]

I think you are wrong.

Of course you do, but is that your pride talking?

If anyone has a bible case they can make it rather than whine.

Why would a bible case hold any water? Is there any position, however contrary to another, that someone somewhere cannot find support for in the bible?

You asked for proof that the world revolves, and that is well known. That is nothing like me asking for proof for a state that science claims and uses for all models. Be honest. Isn't it about time?

They are on a matter of scale; if you cannot provide proof for what is simple and "well known", I do not see how it would be intellectually honest to ask for "proof for a state that science claims and uses for all models". That would be hypocritical.

 

[olderguy]

There really are no words to describe what I conceive of as time. What all of physics people call time is the rate at which NOW is changing. For me, the time I say doesn't exist is the past, or the what was, or yesterday. The future, or what will be, or tomorrow. This is a slippery slope of thoughts. Even if you could travel super fast, which we probably will never be able to do, you still wouldn't travel to tomorrow. You would just slow up the rate of speed NOW passes for you, while the rest of us experience NOW as usual. So when you return you will be younger than us. But it will still be NOW. The bummer is everyone you loved will be much older or dead. Inflation may have caused your money supply to become less valuable. On the up side, there may be new medical breakthroughs that can help you.

So maybe extreme speed or gravitation changes can effect the rate of change in Now for a person. Maybe.

That's not the same as jumping in a machine and getting out after an hour, more or less, and it's 100,000 years later. EVEN IF THIS WERE POSSIBLE, the trick would be to return to where you came from. If you did that, then you traveled through time. I mean my concept of time, not yours. But what I call time, doesn't exist. And since we use the same word for it, Time, the 2 concepts are constantly confused.

 

[dad]

Why would a bible case hold any water? Is there any position, however contrary to another, that someone somewhere cannot find support for in the bible?

Yes. A good bible case is quite different from a weak one.

They are on a matter of scale; if you cannot provide proof for what is simple and "well known", I do not see how it would be intellectually honest to ask for "proof for a state that science claims and uses for all models". That would be hypocritical.

If science uses a set of laws and forces to model for the future, for example, we need to know that they WILL apply. That is totally unlike for example science claiming gravity works because the latter is easy to support, the former is bad religion gone wild. learn the difference between what is known and what is not!

The orbit of the earth is known. You same state past is a lie.

 

[Davian]

Yes. A good bible case is quite different from a weak one.

No, they are all weak. There is no position, however contrary to another, that someone somewhere cannot find support for in the bible.

If science uses a set of laws and forces to model for the future, for example, we need to know that they WILL apply. That is totally unlike for example science claiming gravity works because the latter is easy to support, the former is bad religion gone wild. learn the difference between what is known and what is not!

The orbit of the earth is known. You same state past is a lie.

Prove it.

 

[Kylie]

Just to be certain, in those experiments with the 2 clocks, was the one on the airplane ahead of or behind the one on the ground? I've been assuming it was behind the one on the ground. But I never really asked.

Google is your friend.

I'm not going to do your homework for you.

Go right ahead and believe Time is something real. It doesn't really matter too much.

I'm not quite sure what time is. But considering that we can measure the rate at which it passes and how that rate changes, I'm pretty sure it's not a figment of our imaginations.

But I'll tell you a few things I'm sure you won't really forget. They will probably leave your mind for 30 years, but then you will remember. Someday, when a whole new generation of young people is all excited over new unprovable ideas, as well as the old unproven ideas you will know what I mean. I've been waiting 40 - 50 years for hard evidence, or tangible proof, of several things. These include Bigfoot, UFO's, little Gray men, Nessie, Evolution (yuk), time travel, Blackholes, and other dimensions, just to name a few. I happen to know there are things flying in space that aren't of Earth because I saw them more than once or twice in 1967. But from what I saw, and what I now know, they aren't aliens from another star system. I no longer even think they're actual machines, such as we need to fly though the air and space. I think they're living creatures of some sort, and I heard we have now made something that supports this idea. Have you heard of the research whereby plants are being grown into buildings and other inanimate objects? If such building ever become feasible they will be self repairing. Or imagine a bridge made of living cells. When stress causes cracks the bridge will grow to repair itself. This is something we humans are doing.
Anyway, I feel betrayed by overzealous science buffs from the 60's - 80's because I expected hard proof on certain things. I mean at least Bigfoot. By now if this creature is real someone should have proof. Maybe it's just way more profitable to keep him a fantasy and make money that way.

Does this have anything to do with what we were talking about?

So finally I had to decide to not let you youngsters get to me with your ideas. I once enjoyed believing such things too. Just watch out for people who will connive money from society to chase ideas that are unprovable. Likewise, be cautious of people who use unprovable ideas to claim God is not real. Because God is the only hope this Earth has to get better.

Also, be cautious of people who use unprovable ideas to claim God IS real.

Now tell me which clock was ahead of the other, please.

Time passes slower when you are deeper in a gravity well, and it also passes slower if you travel faster.

 

[dad]

No, they are all weak. There is no position, however contrary to another, that someone somewhere cannot find support for in the bible.

That shows you really don't know what you are talking about, and can't tell a real bible case from some lunatic crank claim.

 

[dad]

http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/releases/aluminum-atomic-clock_092310.cfm

Also, be cautious of people who use unprovable ideas to claim God IS real.

Also, be cautious of people who use unprovable ideas to claim God ISN'T real.

 

[Davian]

No, they are all weak. There is no position, however contrary to another, that someone somewhere cannot find support for in the bible.


Prove it.

That shows you really don't know what you are talking about, and can't tell a real bible case from some lunatic crank claim.

(this is why I do not bring my good irony meters here anymore.)



You said, "Your same state past is a lie."

Prove it.

 

[Kylie]

Also, be cautious of people who use unprovable ideas to claim God ISN'T real.

Also, be cautious of people who use unprovable ideas to claim God IS real.

 

[olderguy]

Yes, relative to slower speed. At light speed time stops.
Particles at very near light speed last longer/travel farther
than slower particles. The speed of your head is higher than
your feet due to the rotation angle.

But the lower gravity at your head may have an effect as well.
I don't recall which that experiment was checking.

What I find antagonizing is you young people say these things as if they are proven facts. They are just ideas. If you would have prefaced your statements with "we think" I wouldn't have even responded to it.

I'll also give you all, that if we define time as the rate of changes in the NOW then time does exist. But if any of us ever gain immortality you'll then learn time isn't a real thing.

 

[florida2]

What I find antagonizing is you young people say these things as if they are proven facts. They are just ideas. If you would have prefaced your statements with "we think" I wouldn't have even responded to it.

I'll also give you all, that if we define time as the rate of changes in the NOW then time does exist. But if any of us ever gain immortality you'll then learn time isn't a real thing.

Nobody is trying to be antagonising - we're trying to explain what has been found experimentally. Have a look at this, there's also plenty of other information out there: Time dilation of moving particles - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Very basically, particles called muons are created when cosmic rays collide with the upper atmosphere. Muons have incredibly short lifetimes. Even though they are travelling near the speed of light very few of them should reach the ground. However, scientists measure that a large number of muons actually reach the ground which could not happen unless there is time dilation.

Plenty of time dilation experiments have been carried out, even by undergraduates.