My thoughts on a "completed skeptic".

[razeontherock]

Yeah, pretty much. That is what they do.

Confront them with personal testimony of someone earnestly seeking and not finding? Cue the constant refrain of "oh, well you must not have been seeking properly". Deny, deny, deny.

You start by saying Christians merely want to be right in an argument, and yet you finish by asserting you are infallible in your efforts to seek Him, and therefore the problem must be with G-d. Sounds like projection to me (along with a case of attempting to pass responsibility, rather than taking it)

Oh for....repeatedly, then. Heartfelt, repeated cries to feel the presence of God, and not receiving it. I can't make this any clearer to you without resorting to pop-up books.

Both frustration and humor appreciated. Do you think Christianity is about a feeling? There is a Christian on CF right now, saying these same things. what makes her a Christian and you not?

Denial of the testimony that show God to be very selective - arbitrary, even - in which earnest seeking prayers he responds to - (charitably) assuming of course, for the sake of argument, that he exists.

I wasn't there when all this seeking was going on, but i can tell you the attitude you display now is enough to keep Him away.

 

[Proverb2717]

I think you're abusing my terminology a little, but you're right I don't KNOW. That said people generally take convincing other people of the correctness of their arguments as a form of evidence for their arguments being correct. Getting someone to embrace a new ideology is probably gonna make people think that ideology has merit. So even though you seem to deny that you think an atheist becoming a Christian doesn't support the validity of Christianity I am a little skeptical that this is indeed the case.

Stoneghost, did I strike a chord with you?

 

[Stoneghost]

No I don't give you any "-1's". Your balance remains at 0.

 

[razeontherock]

I'd like a B flat 13, please

 

[Elioenai26]

 

[Lux Aeterna]

I was atheist (at times an apatheist) until I was 20 or so. Maybe 21, I can't remember exactly. It's not a period in my life that I'm particularly happy about, so I don't talk about it much.

 

[Gadarene]

You start by saying Christians merely want to be right in an argument, and yet you finish by asserting you are infallible in your efforts to seek Him, and therefore the problem must be with G-d.

Not infallible. Sincere, which is the Biblical requirement.

Sounds like projection to me (along with a case of attempting to pass responsibility, rather than taking it)

Assuming for one moment that I am being inconsistent, that still doesn't make the initial point wrong.

If a Christian wants to pass on the usual platitudinous advice, fine - but if you're going to give that advice and then condemn me for having done exactly that but not getting the answer you want to hear - then that Christian is a hypocrite. And that is what occurred on this thread.

Both frustration and humor appreciated. Do you think Christianity is about a feeling? There is a Christian on CF right now, saying these same things. what makes her a Christian and you not?

Does she think it's about a feeling? Feeling of presence? Personal relationship? Many Christians do. It is frequently what creates and cements the belief.

Incidentally, is she getting the same trite advice and then being condemned for following it?

I wasn't there when all this seeking was going on, but i can tell you the attitude you display now is enough to keep Him away.

Which wouldn't have arisen in many of these cases if he'd responded during the seeking phase, of course, when the belief was still there and the attitude was not present. Oh well.

 

[razeontherock]

Not infallible. Sincere, which is the Biblical requirement.

Assuming for one moment that I am being inconsistent, that still doesn't make the initial point wrong.

Well there is no "official list" of requirements we can check off. Sincerity is certainly on it, so you've got that much right.

If a Christian wants to pass on the usual platitudinous advice, fine - but if you're going to give that advice and then condemn me for having done exactly that but not getting the answer you want to hear - then that Christian is a hypocrite. And that is what occurred on this thread.

Hmmm ... I haven't seen anyone condemn you. Are you reading a different thread?

Does she think it's about a feeling? Feeling of presence? Personal relationship? Many Christians do. It is frequently what creates and cements the belief.

Incidentally, is she getting the same trite advice and then being condemned for following it?

No one is claiming to have all the answers in either case. Neither is anyone pretending to be Judge. The similarity between the two of you, is she has endured quite a long time of at least thinking she has gotten no response from God. I haven't seen clear indication from her that she's focused on feelings or getting any certain feeling, and to be fair I haven't seen that from you either.

There was a subtle suggestion from you, that I thought I'd inquire about. I couldn't say it brought about a positive response

Which wouldn't have arisen in many of these cases if he'd responded during the seeking phase, of course, when the belief was still there and the attitude was not present. Oh well.

"The seeking phase?" Can you describe this to me? Here i thought it was, "he that endures to the end shall be saved."

I must be confused.

 

[Elioenai26]

Not infallible. Sincere, which is the Biblical requirement.

Assuming for one moment that I am being inconsistent, that still doesn't make the initial point wrong.

If a Christian wants to pass on the usual platitudinous advice, fine - but if you're going to give that advice and then condemn me for having done exactly that but not getting the answer you want to hear - then that Christian is a hypocrite. And that is what occurred on this thread.

Does she think it's about a feeling? Feeling of presence? Personal relationship? Many Christians do. It is frequently what creates and cements the belief.

Incidentally, is she getting the same trite advice and then being condemned for following it?

Which wouldn't have arisen in many of these cases if he'd responded during the seeking phase, of course, when the belief was still there and the attitude was not present. Oh well.

These are just some of the verses that came to mind when dealing with this subject of seeking. The emphasis and italics are mine.

Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

1Th 2:13 And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God, which is at work in you believers.

Mat 18:1 At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?" And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Luk 11:1 Now Jesus was praying in a certain place, and when he finished, one of his disciples said to him, "Lord, teach us to pray, as John taught his disciples."

John 3. Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, "Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him." Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."Nicodemus said to him, "How can these things be?" Jesus answered him, "Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things?Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you do not receive our testimony.If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things?No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,that whoever believes in him may have eternal life."For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God."

By, the way, I have never mentioned this before, but I notice your name is taken from the territory of the demoniac accounts of Matthew Mark and Luke. Is this an accurate observation?

 

[ToddNotTodd]

These are just some of the verses that came to mind when dealing with this subject of seeking. The emphasis and italics are mine.

You know that priests, pastors, nuns, etc. have all deconverted from Christianity, right? The ones I've talked to have all said they "felt the spirit", "were humbly convicted" and every other buzz phrase Christians use to separate out "true" Christians. They knew the Bible backwards and forwards. Their deconversions were difficult for them. They prayed that god would help them from deconverting. And yet they did.

Since you've insinuated that god answers the prayers of those who sincerely pray, how did these devout Christians lose their faith? If I still believed in the Christian god, I'd be inclined to say that god wanted them to deconvert for some reason...

 

[Gadarene]

These are just some of the verses that came to mind when dealing with this subject of seeking. The emphasis and italics are mine.

And I believed all of them at one point.

Again, nothing you are saying here in trying to deal with my apostasy that I haven't heard before. Believed it and sought it all. And as far as I can tell, I received it too.

By, the way, I have never mentioned this before, but I notice your name is taken from the territory of the demoniac accounts of Matthew Mark and Luke. Is this an accurate observation?

Well spotted.

I wanted Legion as my username, but it was taken.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I identified as a Christian until about a year or so ago. The general narrative is that, whenever an atheist converts, they've seen the light. On the other hand, whenever a Christian "converts" to atheism, they've fallen into darkness and sin, or perhaps they were never truly devout to begin with.