My thought's on 12 step groups, with some constructive criticism. Poll Included

[Sadiegrl]

Great response Mike! I completely agree.

To Colter, I also worked all the 12 steps and graduated from a year long commitment and did fully surrender to God...I'm sure you weren't meaning to sound as if those who don't feel it is the ONLY WAY, never really hit a bottom, or got over their denial, or ever really surrendered to God, because that's completely untrue and isn't biblical. Even Paul who was greatly used by God, confessed in Romans 6-8 how he struggled with the two separate sides of himself, one that loved God and wanted to do what was right, and the other side that sabotaged him consistently and he agonized that he alone could not do what was needed to please God, despite his intentions and best efforts. It took more, God's power, the indwelling presence of Christ in us. This was after his ministry had begun and his relationship with God was healthy. So then, was Paul in denial because he found struggles within himself? I think not. But I do recognize the need to surrender ourselves daily to Christ and commit to walk in His way, allowing Him to lead us and handle the battles in His power, mine is but weaknesses...but who of us is completely spiritual with eyes and ears fully developed to follow Him without faltering?

This is what I understand meetings to be created for: people to share and encourage one another and fellowship. It teaches some great tools for handling out of control feelings, desires and experiences. It's up to God to change us once we let go of control. This is something I struggle with almost absentmindedly... and as in Romans 12 we are to offer our bodies as living sacrifices, allowing God to shape us, this being a spiritual act of worship. I like this image of subduing the flesh, and read somewhere how frustrating it is when the living sacrifice keeps getting up off the altar!

Whether we choose to go to meetings or not, people should not look down on others for their finding success in something besides The Program. I have several friends that are in the 20+ years of sobriety, and I admire them, but I know that if I have a drink, I'm not going to immediately crave some heavy drug. Which is their philosophy and I feel uncomfortable having a drink at a party with them. Also, just my opinion but I think AA and NA groups that are not confessing Christ, are in my experience kind of a hinder to sobriety. Firstly, as Mike already expressed, the atmosphere is pretty depressing. It really is, you may hear some occasional uplifting words of perseverance, but for the most part its a bunch of terrible stories and how glad people are that they aren't there anymore. Accepting a newcomer chip gets a lot of applause, but when I was in rehab, we had to go to meetings like 4 times a week, and I didn't particularly want a collection of chips. I would turn them back in after I had a few. But the biggest issue was I think what some people refer to as 13th stepping someone...which is just a slang for hitting on other people. After the meetings, during the smoke break, guys would come up and try to talk to girls, getting their numbers so they could be an accountability partner. And when they'd hang out, guess they weren't far along enough in their program to go on a lil binge and break their number of days clean. I've seen it happen and known plenty of people that just went to hook up with other broken people. This wasn't so bad at CR, but still bothered me, maybe even more because its Christ centered and I wanted to feel safe, but because its a melting pot of issues at one place, there'd be sex addicts mingling with victims of abuse after splitting up into small groups.

Anyways, just wanted to defend that if the 12 step program didn't "cure" me then that doesn't mean that I didn't surrender to God fully and am still stuck at step 1. I've grown a lot in Christ, from where I was at my bottom and am filled with gratitude and peace, but there is still internal conflict. Isn't there in everyone?

 

[Colter]

Great response Mike! I completely agree.

To Colter, I also worked all the 12 steps and graduated from a year long commitment and did fully surrender to God...I'm sure you weren't meaning to sound as if those who don't feel it is the ONLY WAY, never really hit a bottom, or got over their denial, or ever really surrendered to God, because that's completely untrue and isn't biblical. Even Paul who was greatly used by God, confessed in Romans 6-8 how he struggled with the two separate sides of himself, one that loved God and wanted to do what was right, and the other side that sabotaged him consistently and he agonized that he alone could not do what was needed to please God, despite his intentions and best efforts. It took more, God's power, the indwelling presence of Christ in us. This was after his ministry had begun and his relationship with God was healthy. So then, was Paul in denial because he found struggles within himself? I think not. But I do recognize the need to surrender ourselves daily to Christ and commit to walk in His way, allowing Him to lead us and handle the battles in His power, mine is but weaknesses...but who of us is completely spiritual with eyes and ears fully developed to follow Him without faltering?

This is what I understand meetings to be created for: people to share and encourage one another and fellowship. It teaches some great tools for handling out of control feelings, desires and experiences. It's up to God to change us once we let go of control. This is something I struggle with almost absentmindedly... and as in Romans 12 we are to offer our bodies as living sacrifices, allowing God to shape us, this being a spiritual act of worship. I like this image of subduing the flesh, and read somewhere how frustrating it is when the living sacrifice keeps getting up off the altar!

Whether we choose to go to meetings or not, people should not look down on others for their finding success in something besides The Program. I have several friends that are in the 20+ years of sobriety, and I admire them, but I know that if I have a drink, I'm not going to immediately crave some heavy drug. Which is their philosophy and I feel uncomfortable having a drink at a party with them. Also, just my opinion but I think AA and NA groups that are not confessing Christ, are in my experience kind of a hinder to sobriety. Firstly, as Mike already expressed, the atmosphere is pretty depressing. It really is, you may hear some occasional uplifting words of perseverance, but for the most part its a bunch of terrible stories and how glad people are that they aren't there anymore. Accepting a newcomer chip gets a lot of applause, but when I was in rehab, we had to go to meetings like 4 times a week, and I didn't particularly want a collection of chips. I would turn them back in after I had a few. But the biggest issue was I think what some people refer to as 13th stepping someone...which is just a slang for hitting on other people. After the meetings, during the smoke break, guys would come up and try to talk to girls, getting their numbers so they could be an accountability partner. And when they'd hang out, guess they weren't far along enough in their program to go on a lil binge and break their number of days clean. I've seen it happen and known plenty of people that just went to hook up with other broken people. This wasn't so bad at CR, but still bothered me, maybe even more because its Christ centered and I wanted to feel safe, but because its a melting pot of issues at one place, there'd be sex addicts mingling with victims of abuse after splitting up into small groups.

Anyways, just wanted to defend that if the 12 step program didn't "cure" me then that doesn't mean that I didn't surrender to God fully and am still stuck at step 1. I've grown a lot in Christ, from where I was at my bottom and am filled with gratitude and peace, but there is still internal conflict. Isn't there in everyone?

Getting sober at 22 and staying in the fellowship of surrendered belivers for 30 years continuously has given me a LOT of experience with people who have said the same things that you and Mike have said, almost verbatim. And with that level of hostility towards the 12 step programs I also know that reaching those who continue in the rebellious state of "special-case-ness" are near impossible to reach.

Addicts are people who find it very difficult to leave their comfort zone, they tend to take the easier, softer way when faced with uncomfortable circumstances. It is for this reason that addicts never grow up emotionally, they are filled with fears and social anxiety which leads to excuse making for their inability to form healthy partnerships with others. If they can't be the center of attention or run the whole show, they blame the group and run off to another brief stay in some other group until that goes all grey as well.

There simply is no middle of the road solution.

 

[Sadiegrl]

Colter,

I'm sure you are just the expert in your field of teaching people where their place is in their recovery and labeling them "impossible to reach", I know you didn't learn this from Christ, but I'm not calling into question your beliefs, which is exactly what you are doing to any opposing belief of yours. Which is so unfortunately typical of many Christians, that it gives us a bad name.

Not once did I show hostility towards the program. I admitted that I learned valuable things about it, but found some aspects to not be for me. In fact I've brought to the conversation another Christ-based 12 step program that I worked and it helped. My whole posts have centered on Christ and not myself, unlike yours, so kindly please keep your professional opinions to yourself. People like you were the reason the program didn't work for me. People with seniority who took it upon themselves to denounce and label those who had differing opinions, not caring to listen but just waiting their turn to talk. That's exactly what meetings were, people waiting their turn to talk and not even really listen to those who were just before them. Also, I've learned from experience that the more we confess to not know, the more able we are to learn. So enjoy your level of self-expertise and continue showing those who are in rebellious state of minds the TRUE way...AA.


P.S. Apologies for my hostility, as this is the only time I have expressed any and I know Jesus would want otherwise. But hey, maybe I'm just in denial.

 

[mikenet2006]

Colter,

I'm sure you are just the expert in your field of teaching people where their place is in their recovery and labeling them "impossible to reach", I know you didn't learn this from Christ, but I'm not calling into question your beliefs, which is exactly what you are doing to any opposing belief of yours. Which is so unfortunately typical of many Christians, that it gives us a bad name.

Not once did I show hostility towards the program. I admitted that I learned valuable things about it, but found some aspects to not be for me. In fact I've brought to the conversation another Christ-based 12 step program that I worked and it helped. My whole posts have centered on Christ and not myself, unlike yours, so kindly please keep your professional opinions to yourself. People like you were the reason the program didn't work for me. People with seniority who took it upon themselves to denounce and label those who had differing opinions, not caring to listen but just waiting their turn to talk. That's exactly what meetings were, people waiting their turn to talk and not even really listen to those who were just before them. Also, I've learned from experience that the more we confess to not know, the more able we are to learn. So enjoy your level of self-expertise and continue showing those who are in rebellious state of minds the TRUE way...AA.


P.S. Apologies for my hostility, as this is the only time I have expressed any and I know Jesus would want otherwise. But hey, maybe I'm just in denial.

When you came in here to post you didn't sound hostile to me either, you explained a little about what worked for you and what didn't help, very civil unless stating an opinion is hostile. In post number 15 he more or less suggested that I should stop being pig headed and shut up. In his defense he later commented it was just a saying that's common if I remember right. That type of communication, whether it be a catch phrase or not, isn't the way to reach people.
Long time members who showed this type of behavior did have a negative effect on me in terms of confidence in the group, I feel a responsibiility though to point out that many of the long time AA or NA members dont do that. Although I found the program to be generally depressing, some of the members were down to earth.

One of the big things that had me stop going is that I asked myself if the group was helping, I had attended for a long time and got to observe the effect the group had on many others, and on myself. In some cases it worked for people, in many other cases it didn't work at all, or even had an adverse effect. I was one of the ones it was having a negative effect on, I had many sponsors in this time frame, had done step work, and I did learn some things that I found usefull but my addiction behaviours weren't changing.

I was one of the ones who felt the program was having a negative effect based on the atmosphere of the groups themselves. People should do what works though, I hate to see people hurting, and I've seen a lot of that. Problems with addiction are usually very devestating and seeing people get better is a good thing when it happens. I want people to feel better whatever it takes, if that's 12 step groups then that's awesome, but I feel many members who fail at 12steps get the impression that they cant get better which I find to be saddening.

I felt that way for a long time in those groups, that there was something wrong with me, then I would ask myself what other alternatives are out there? I had figured that 12 step groups was one of the most well known about forms of recovery for those with addiction problems, and if that didn't work where do I go? I was devestated coming out of these groups because lots of people do believe it's the best or only way.

I'm finding help now in little ways, simple things that make sense such as being near people who make me feel better without a substance, or filling my time with positive activities. Going to Church is helping, I'm not solid in my faith yet but it's making me feel good when I go. I believe there is a God who wants us to be happy, I'm just not sure yet on who has it right. I have a lot of learning to do and I'm still growing, but I also dont believe God intended for us to understand it all. So I think I'm doing okay, it's a work in progress but I'll get there.

 

[If Not For Grace]

I owe my life to Al-Anon. It was Al-Anon that gave me PRACTICAL tools & skills on how to have a Spiritual lifestyle. The 12 Steps led me back to God after having had the most horrific experiences with the "church" & organized religion on more than one front. Thanks to the steps I learned how to... have compassion, let go of resentments, forgive people and to make amends to those I had harmed...I also know that recovery is for those that want it..not everyone who needs it, but I recommend any one struggling with ANY issue (or who is living with a person who is struggling) to try this way of life.. because it works.

 

[mikenet2006]

I owe my life to Al-Anon. It was Al-Anon that gave me PRACTICAL tools & skills on how to have a Spiritual lifestyle. The 12 Steps led me back to God after having had the most horrific experiences with the "church" & organized religion on more than one front. Thanks to the steps I learned how to... have compassion, let go of resentments, forgive people and to make amends to those I had harmed...I also know that recovery is for those that want it..not everyone who needs it, but I recommend any one struggling with ANY issue (or who is living with a person who is struggling) to try this way of life.. because it works.

I'm very happy that 12 steps has worked for you, I think that's a great thing.

To update, I'm now attending a program I'm liking, that's helping me a lot too. I get to share ideas with those who want to get better outside the 12 step community.

It's called Smart Recovery, I can go to meetings online, and there's also one I can go to locally where I get to sit down with like minded individuals who are either seeking recovery, or have sobriety. The program is growing and gaining support which is a good sign for those who had trouble in 12 step programs. Here's the four point program, it goes like this...

1: Building and Maintaining Motivation
2: Coping with Urges
3: Managing Thoughts, Feelings and Behaviors
4: Living a Balanced Life

I'm loving some of the basic concepts of the group, for example...

• Teaches self-empowerment and self-reliance.
• Teaches techniques for self-directed change.

Some of it is based on scientific research, but they don't reject the concept of believing in a higher power, it's an optional tool that they aknowledge can help, so its a broad program with many options and tools. While it does help it's members to be self reliant, it also encourages getting the help you need to be able to do that. In other words, self reliance doesn't mean you don't seek help from others, it means you'll be more functional as an individual and wont need to be in a codependant relationship, or use. I'm really liking it, one of my problems with 12 steps was the concept that people are powerless over their addiction. I believe we can build confidence and all have the power to make choices that will benifet us. I believe in God, but my God want's us to be able to make decisions, and understands we need wiggle room to grow as individuals.

I have no contempt for 12 step members, I'm glad what your doing is helping you but it wasn't for me. I think as long as people are making progress that it's an awesome thing regardless of the method.

Anyone here is still welcome to share what has worked for them, whether it be a 12 step program, or something else.

 

[jaxis]

AA a fear based cult you got to do this that and this to recover. Is recovered going to meetings every day no that's fear there all in fear. aa na don't have the best long term recovery Christians who have been delivered do. aaers naers hate Jesus Christ and that a universal Truth. Pg 73 of the 12n12 says you only have to make the admission of powerlessness once you never have to go threw it again it says that means even if you relapse. aa recovery rate no better then spontaneous remission the same as doing nothing I believe it's worse then doing nothing cause it's satanic. Bill Wilson the founder of aa took acid after he quit drinking but aa cult leader Bob Darrel says he doesn't take mood and mind altering medication. AAers tell people on medication to quit them cause there mood and mind altering okay Bill Wilson took acid but you depressed or bi-polar or schizophrenic don't need meds aa will cure you but it doesn't cure alcoholism. Just like the nazi's first go after the mentally ill. Bill Wilson also cheated on his wife and invented the 13th step which Bob Darrel also used to marry a women aa. He played on wegie boards and said he talk to archangels dead people people in pergatory and saint Francis. The big book does say our Creator and one God but you will never hear that at a meeting my higher power my god my fairy tale pathetic. The big book says to Christ yes it says Christ not Jesus but Christ and Christ in Greek means the chosen one Christ in Hebrew means Messiah so thats what the big book talking about but aa is a cult they will never ever ever ever mention it. Big book says I must turn over all things to the Father of Light the aa cult will say that's just Bill wife cheater W view. But at the last national conferance biil w spoke at he said we must. Father of Light connects to James 1:17 were it's first mentioned. Bill W ruthlessley faced his sins and never drank again never hear that at a cult meeting. AA spiritual kindergarden that people who serve aa and go to a lot of meetings are petrified in fear THERE BRAIN WASHED. I have recovered from something worse then alcoholism aaism alcoholics number one killer.

 

[Ahermit]

jaxis, sorry to read how angry, critical, and discontent you are.
I pray that your condemnation of a spiritual organization that has millions of recovered alcoholics, will pass.
AA is a spiritual program tailored to cater for all religions, for alcoholism is not religious specific.
Thousands of AA's have found God and Jesus Christ through the 12 Step program.
May your anger be replaced with serenity.

 

[Colter]

AA a fear based cult you got to do this that and this to recover. Is recovered going to meetings every day no that's fear there all in fear. aa na don't have the best long term recovery Christians who have been delivered do. aaers naers hate Jesus Christ and that a universal Truth. Pg 73 of the 12n12 says you only have to make the admission of powerlessness once you never have to go threw it again it says that means even if you relapse. aa recovery rate no better then spontaneous remission the same as doing nothing I believe it's worse then doing nothing cause it's satanic. Bill Wilson the founder of aa took acid after he quit drinking but aa cult leader Bob Darrel says he doesn't take mood and mind altering medication. AAers tell people on medication to quit them cause there mood and mind altering okay Bill Wilson took acid but you depressed or bi-polar or schizophrenic don't need meds aa will cure you but it doesn't cure alcoholism. Just like the nazi's first go after the mentally ill. Bill Wilson also cheated on his wife and invented the 13th step which Bob Darrel also used to marry a women aa. He played on wegie boards and said he talk to archangels dead people people in pergatory and saint Francis. The big book does say our Creator and one God but you will never hear that at a meeting my higher power my god my fairy tale pathetic. The big book says to Christ yes it says Christ not Jesus but Christ and Christ in Greek means the chosen one Christ in Hebrew means Messiah so thats what the big book talking about but aa is a cult they will never ever ever ever mention it. Big book says I must turn over all things to the Father of Light the aa cult will say that's just Bill wife cheater W view. But at the last national conferance biil w spoke at he said we must. Father of Light connects to James 1:17 were it's first mentioned. Bill W ruthlessley faced his sins and never drank again never hear that at a cult meeting. AA spiritual kindergarden that people who serve aa and go to a lot of meetings are petrified in fear THERE BRAIN WASHED. I have recovered from something worse then alcoholism aaism alcoholics number one killer.

Yes, I agree with Ahermit, this is full of factually dishonest information and hatred. This person doesn't show any sign of having come to Jesus Christ.

 

[RedPonyDriver]

My husband and I are both in Celebrate Recovery. CR is more about the future than the past...being "in recovery" and "recovery from" are two terms that I like a whole lot better. My husband is in recovery from many addictions and other issues. I am in recovery from issues that are not addiction related.

I have found my particular CR group, both step study and open group to be IMMENSELY helpful...painful at times, but helpful. I recommend it highly to anyone who is looking to get past any hurts, hang-ups or habits that have kept them locked in a negative spiral, and kept them from getting healthy, physically, emotionally and spiritually. It's learning to look strictly to Christ for health and healing.