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My thoughts around Romans 9

zoidar

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Frankly, I don't see you arguing that our decisions are not at least influenced; and if they are influenced, then to some degree, they are caused.

But, if the soul is not in some way materialistic, then it is unrelated to freewill, because the whole matter of freewill deals of material results: those things caused by our decisions.

And, if Free will has no causality, it does not exist, except in God alone.



My contention is not only that all things which God plans will be fulfilled, but that "all things, whatsoever shall come to pass" do so by God's plan. Therefore, whatever else 'freewill' may imply, it is necessarily bound by and defined by God's plan concerning it. Freewill logically cannot operate independently of God's plan. It is for this reason that many Calvinists claim there is no such thing as freewill.



To repeat: logically, if God is the only first cause, (which is definitive —i.e. "first cause" by definition logically demands singularity), then all other things result from his creating. If he created what he knew would result in a thing happening, he thus caused that thing to happen. Thus, if he knew all things, he, being the only Creator, caused all things.

I bring up 'chance', because, except for First Cause, nothing is uncaused. Since you claim freewill, and claim it by definition is causeless, the only alternative I can see is that you believe freewill's decisions happen by chance, since I can't imagine you would claim some truly altogether-spontaneous co-existence of mere creatures with God.

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But allow me to go on a bit, here —I will try to describe some of the arguments (or should I call them simply, assertions?) I hear:

One is that by definition freewill is causeless, and that, by God's design, or that God has caused it to be causeless. They say that it is a gift of God to all mankind. Yet, they cannot see how that is self-contradictory.

Another takes the form of this quote, "It is the most sovereign thing God can do, to give up some of his sovereignty." And the one who said that, and many who heard it or think it, see no logical self-contradiction there. The delight in whatever seems counter-intuitive, particularly if it sounds poetic, apparently overrides rationality, for some people.

Maybe the best way I can describe this third, is the notion that God's sovereignty only rides herd on events within time. According to some, God's plans are only the end result, and not how to get there. This God, then, apparently must fly by the seat of his pants, and because he is all-wise and all-capable, he can figure out how to arrange things to the best end. Perhaps by this, they mean he recalibrates our reactions to life's circumstances? I don't know. The actual way this works is short of examples, though they claim all events demonstrate it. Some even claim that his original plans are sometimes defeated and he must settle for a contingent possibility.

Meanwhile, that third, and all others, continue to ignore the obvious, that if God knew what was going to result from his creation, but created anyway, then he purposely destined it to happen. And no, this does not mean he created sin, as it has been shown previously; God did not create my rebellion, but he did cause that I be rebellious, by use of means: Satan, Adam and sin. And this he did for his own purpose: The Gospel.

They also ignore that all such assertions depend on the determinative ability of mere chance, which notion, again, is logically self-contradictory. There is no accident.

Gee! I accidenly lost my reply. It was rather short. Sorry if I'm disappointing you with a short reply.

I was to write in my last post that the cause of free will is God. So no it's not uncaused. But it's not dependant on anything more than soul.

Of course our decisions are influenced by many things. But I mean free will can not be influenced, because free will is the "choice maker", the soul. God created us after His image and one thing I believe that means is that He gave us a soul with free will.

Why do I move my little finger? Because I choose to. Why do I choose to? Because I will it. Why do I will it? Because I choose to will it. Why do I choose to will it? Free will. There is no cause except "choice".
 
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FutureAndAHope

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Do you then deny the Scriptures that say he blinded them? Of course you don't deny that! Both his blinding them, and they blinding themselves happened. But God is the one who planned it all, and that, much to his own pain, because of his great mercy and love.

Of course, their unwillingness, happened! That is the T of TULIP; Total Depravity is basic to the definition of Grace!

You don't get the point of what I was saying. I do believe God blinds people, but only after they refuse the "love of the truth". What your doctrine states, is God because of his wrath against the sinner, keeps the majority of people blind to the truth, only enlightening a select few. According to your doctrine states, it is His plan. Yet we see Jesus said His desire was to gather them all, but they refused, were unwilling. Is God unable to perform what he willed?

Luke 13:34 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!

Is it not the case they had free will.
 
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FutureAndAHope

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However, as previously explained:

1) that is not the meaning of God's foreknowledge, which is of his actions, not of man's actions,
2) nor does Scripture present or refer to God "knowing in advance" what man is going to do,
3) that is a construct of man to support his personal reasoning, which construct is not presented in the NT
4) and, therefore, is not a demonstration of God's foreknowledge about anything, and
5) does not demonstrate anything about anything.

He can also predestine the demons to life, but Scripture does not present his predestining "the righteous" nor the demons to life.

The way I see, foreknowledge, is that God knew in advance that some would choose wisely, and others poorly, so He planned both a redemptive, and abasing plan, fitting for each type of choice made (this is still foreknowledge). There are also other things he planned as well. The cross is an example that was planned before the world began. These are still His actions, what God willed, and planned before time. But I don't believe free will is overridden. As we see in:

Luke 13:34 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!
 
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zoidar

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You don't get the point of what I was saying. I do believe God blinds people, but only after they refuse the "love of the truth". What your doctrine states, is God because of his wrath against the sinner, keeps the majority of people blind to the truth, only enlightening a select few. According to your doctrine states, it is His plan. Yet we see Jesus said His desire was to gather them all, but they refused, were unwilling. Is God unable to perform what he willed?

Luke 13:34 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!

Is it not the case they had free will.

If I'm not wrong Spurgeon said that God desires the salvation of everyone, yet that God is not decreeing or willing everyone's salvation. So what God desires and decrees are different things from that perspective.
 
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Clare73

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The way I see, foreknowledge,
But which is relevant, the way we see, it or the way Scripture presents it.

And what merit is there in using it to mean what Scripture nowhere presents; i.e., God acting on knowledge of what men are going to do.
That's all just made up, and has no Scriptural support.
So where is the truth in it?
 
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FutureAndAHope

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If I'm not wrong Spurgeon said that God desires the salvation of everyone, yet that God is not decreeing or willing everyone's salvation. So what God desires and decrees are different things from that perspective.

But do you desire to eat a pie, have it before you, but eat chocolate instead? God has both the desire and ability to do something. God can only say He desired something and it did not happen if men have free will.

As we see in Genisis:

Gen 6:6-7 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

God was saddened by the way man turned out.
 
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zoidar

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But which is relevant, the way we see, it or the way Scripture presents it.

And what merit is there in using it to mean what Scripture nowhere presents; i.e., God acting on knowledge of what men are going to do.
That's all just made up, and has no Scriptural support.
So where is the truth in it?

Neither is there any scriptual support for that God decreed or predestined everything that happens.
 
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zoidar

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Well, I don't do "isms," I do Scripture.

My point was just to not attack FutureAndAHope on his view, if you are doing the same thing. We can hold views that are not clearly stated in Scripture, if it makes sense to the general idea. Such an idea or dogm is the Trinity.
 
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Brightfame52

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That is not what Ro. 9 is about.
It is about the Jew Gentile issue and how even though the Jews were given a more responsible position, to begin with and now we are all equal.
Yes thats exactly what Romans 9 is about, thats why Paul anticipates the carnal objection that God seems unfair Rom 9:14,19

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
 
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bling

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Yes thats exactly what Romans 9 is about, thats why Paul anticipates the carnal objection that God seems unfair Rom 9:14,19

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Those are standard diatribe questions Paul is asking throughout Romans. I explain this in an earlier post, it is Paul's style of writing especially to and for the Jews in Rome who would recognize the style from their studies of Psalm laments. Paul is not trying to "lecture" to them, but have an imaginary debate (in this case it would be with "one of them". In these diatribe debates the opposition always goes first before and/or just after the question, so here we are hearing the opposition's reasoning with strong examples for the wrong answer "God is not just/fair".
 
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renniks

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Yes thats exactly what Romans 9 is about, thats why Paul anticipates the carnal objection that God seems unfair Rom 9:14,19

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
The answer is: everyone resists his will.
 
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Brightfame52

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Those are standard diatribe questions Paul is asking throughout Romans. I explain this in an earlier post, it is Paul's style of writing especially to and for the Jews in Rome who would recognize the style from their studies of Psalm laments. Paul is not trying to "lecture" to them, but have an imaginary debate (in this case it would be with "one of them". In these diatribe debates the opposition always goes first before and/or just after the question, so here we are hearing the opposition's reasoning with strong examples for the wrong answer "God is not just/fair".
Paul is just telling the Truth ! God is Sovereign over Salvation, who is saved and who is not and damned !
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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I dont know anything about muslims friend, dont they have a muslim board for you to go to ? Im referring to Romans 9 !
All I am saying is that it is important to put faith in the right Jesus. Although these other religions reverence Jesus in some way, their Jesus is not the Jesus of the Bible.
 
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Brightfame52

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All I am saying is that it is important to put faith in the right Jesus. Although these other religions reverence Jesus in some way, their Jesus is not the Jesus of the Bible.
Okay, yet this is about Romans 9. Understanding Romans 9 is vital to believing in the True Jesus, the Doctrine of Christ. The True Jesus saves only those God has Sovereignly chose in Him before the foundation, the vessels of mercy Rom 9 speaks of. He didnt come to save the vessels of wrath Rom 9 speaks of. Is that the Jesus you believe in ?
 
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