My thoughts around Romans 9

[FutureAndAHope]

It is my belief that man has free will, that we are not fated by God to be either saved, or unsaved, but rather the action of salvation is a mixture of God's enlightening and our acting. As the book of Job mentions:

Job 36:10-12 He openeth also their ear to instruction, And commandeth that they return from iniquity. If they hearken and serve him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they hearken not, they shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.​

Both Jesus and the Early Church Fathers, within a generation of the Apostles, speak both of God giving light, goodwill, and knowledge of salvation to all men, and it is a choice of either obedience to what he reveals, resulting in life, or disobedience resulting in death.


We see this in both Jesus’ words.

John 1:9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.

Joh 14:21-24 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.​

And the Early Church Fathers, note this is only a few quotes, the early Church Fathers are full of like references.

Irenaeus in his Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 35-38

Chap. XXXVII. — Men Are Possessed of Free Will, and Endowed with the Faculty of Making a Choice. It Is Not True, Therefore, That Some Are by Nature Good, and Others Bad.

1. This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat 23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all….

…. And not merely in works, but also in faith, has God preserved the will of man free and under his own control, saying, “According to thy faith be it unto thee;” (Mat 9:29) thus showing that there is a faith specially belonging to man, since he has an opinion specially his own. And again, “All things are possible to him that believeth;” (Mat 9:23) and, “Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee.” (Mat 8:13) Now all such expressions demonstrate that man is in his own power with respect to faith. And for this reason, “he that believeth in Him has eternal life while he who believeth not the Son hath not eternal life, but the wrath of God shall remain upon him.” (Joh 3:36) In the same manner therefore the Lord, both showing His own goodness, and indicating that man is in his own free will and his own power, said to Jerusalem, “How often have I wished to gather thy children together, as a hen [gathereth] her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Wherefore your house shall be left unto you desolate.” (Mat 23:37, Mat 23:38)

Justin Martyr - First Apology - Ch 26-50

….

But when the Spirit of prophecy speaks of things that are about to come to pass as if they had already taken place, — as may be observed even in the passages already cited by me, — that this circumstance may afford no excuse to readers [for misinterpreting them], we will make even this also quite plain. The things which He absolutely knows will take place, He predicts as if already they had taken place. And that the utterances must be thus received, you will perceive, if you give your attention to them.

….

Chap. XLIII — Responsibility Asserted.

But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate.​

Now that we have seen that man is given free will, loved by God, we are going to try to give meaning within that context to Romans 9, which many people say speaks of God selecting an elect few, with no free will choice made on part of the man, that God chooses some and rejects others. Now it is true that God chooses some people to be saved and not others but based upon their response to God’s revelation of himself. As the following passage in Romans suggests:

Rom 1:21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.​

This idea that people's hearts are darkened by their own choice, to refuse God’s revelation, is further supported by the early Church Fathers.

Iranaeus - Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 39-End

4. But God, foreknowing all things, prepared fit habitations for both, kindly conferring that light which they desire on those who seek after the light of incorruption, and resort to it; but for the despisers and mockers who avoid and turn themselves away from this light, and who do, as it were, blind themselves, He has prepared darkness suitable to persons who oppose the light, and He has inflicted an appropriate punishment upon those who try to avoid being subject to Him. Submission to God is eternal rest, so that they who shun the light have a place worthy of their flight; and those who fly from eternal rest, have a habitation in accordance with their fleeing. Now, since all good things are with God, they who by their own determination fly from God, do defraud themselves of all good things; and having been [thus] defrauded of all good things with respect to God, they shall consequently fall under the just judgment of God.​

I would like to now take a look at Romans 9 in light of the belief that a) man has free will, b) man can choose to blind himself to the truth resulting in damnation, c) or man can accept the truth resulting in life, both actions totally under no cohesion, or fatalism. Why am I doing this? Because Romans 9 has been used by some to support a kind of fatalism, cohesion type of salvation.

First we are going to deal with the beginning of the passage, and look to the early Church Father Irenaeus to gather an understanding of how the early generation of the church taught regarding Romans 9. We see from his writings that the story of Jacob, and Esau was thought to be a symbolic picture of “two nations”, not a picture of two “people”, on how God saves individuals.

Irenaeus Against Heresies. (Cont.)

Book IV. (Cont.)

Chap. XXI. — Abraham’s Faith Was Identical with Ours; This Faith Was Prefigured by the Words and Actions of the Old Patriarchs.


2. The history of Isaac, too, is not without a symbolical character. For in the Epistle to the Romans, the apostle declares: “Moreover, when Rebecca had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac,” she received answer72 from the Word, “that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calleth, it was said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people are in thy body; and the one people shall overcome the other, and the elder shall serve the younger.” (Rom_9:10-13; Gen_25:23) From which it is evident, that not only [were there] prophecies of the patriarchs, but also that the children brought forth by Rebecca were a prediction of the two nations; and that the one should be indeed the greater, but the other the less; that the one also should be under bondage, but the other free; but [that both should be] of one and the same father. Our God, one and the same, is also their God, who knows hidden things, who knoweth all things before they can come to pass; and for this reason has He said, “Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.”​

The picture of two nations refers to the promise of where faith is found. As Jacob stole the birthright off his brother, by the will of God. So too did the Church, and Gentiles gain the birthright, although it was originally in the hands of the Jewish nation. We see here the picture of two nations reflecting where salvation occurs, by faith, not by works of the Jewish law. As stated:

Rom 9:11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),​

Again, Jacob and Esau are a picture of faith, given blessing not based upon their works, having done no good or evil, but upon the calling of God. The call to us which is faith, not works of the Jewish Law. Not in Esau (representing the Hebrew Nation) but in Jacob representing the nation of faith.

The passage concludes then enters:

Rom 9:14-16 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOMEVER I WILL HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOMEVER I WILL HAVE COMPASSION." So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.​

This is a reference to Jacob being chosen to rise up Christ's line, and Esau being rejected, it seems unrighteous, because it was not based upon works. To the Jews, the law was vitally important. They felt that by keeping the commandments of the law alone they could be saved. Paul is saying it is not of him, the man, who works, runs and follows the law, but salvation comes in God’s way, the way God chooses. To present the idea to the Jews that faith alone, not the law saved, would seem like unrighteousness, how can a man be saved without the law. But God says, I will have mercy my way. "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOMEVER I WILL HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOMEVER I WILL HAVE COMPASSION."


Now the passage talks about the blinding, and sinister plan, that occurs to those who the early Church Fathers said “blind themselves”, by rejecting God’s evidences. We have talked about salvation, and how it is not by works of the law.

Rom 9:17-24 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I HAVE RAISED YOU UP, THAT I MAY SHOW MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MAY BE DECLARED IN ALL THE EARTH." Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.​

The question asked by the sinner, is how can God find me at fault if He blinded me to the truth?

You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?​

The response by Paul is, that God “endured with much long-suffering” the vessels of wrath so that He could make known to us His rich blessing.

What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?​

When I think of long-suffering I think of:

2 Peter 3:9 says: The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.​

I believe the long-suffering talked of by Paul and spoken of by the Church Fathers. Is that of God extending his hand over and over again to man, but some reject that, and end up blind to faith, and given to a sorry plan. But God is often, giving us mercy.

Job 33:28-30 He will redeem his soul from going down to the Pit, And his life shall see the light. "Behold, God works all these things, Twice, in fact, three times with a man, To bring back his soul from the Pit, That he may be enlightened with the light of life.​

 

[Brightfame52]

futureandhope

It is my belief that man has free will, that we are not fated by God to be either saved, or unsaved, but rather the action of salvation is a mixture of God's enlightening and our acting.

Unfortunately you believe that which isnt true my friend. Romans 9 witnesses to that Rom 9:15-16

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

 

[bling]

Romans 9

Paul uses two teaching methods throughout Romans even secular philosophy classes will use Romans as the best example of these methods. Paul does an excellent job of building one premise on the previous premises to develop his final conclusions. Paul uses an ancient form of rhetoric known as diatribe (imaginary debate) asking questions and most of the time giving a strong “By no means” and then goes on to explain “why not”. Paul’s method goes beyond just a general diatribe and follows closely to the diatribes used in the individual laments in the Psalms and throughout the Old Testament, which the Jewish Christians would have known extensively. These “questions or comments” are given by an “imaginary” student making it more a dialog with the readers (students) and not just a “sermon”.

The main topic repeated extensively in Romans is the division in the Christian house churches in Rome between the Jews and Gentile Christians. You can just look up how many times Jews and gentiles are referred to see this as a huge issue.


The main question (a diatribe question) in Romans 9 Paul addresses is God being fair or just Rms. 9: 14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!


This will take some explaining, since just prior in Romans 9, Paul went over some history of God’s dealings with the Israelites that sounds very “unjust” like “loving Jacob and hating Esau” before they were born, but remember in all of Paul’s diatribes he begins before, just after or before and just after with strong support for the wrong answer (this makes it more of a debate and giving the opposition the first shot as done in all diatribes).


Who in Rome would be having a “problem” with God choosing to work with Isaac and Jacob instead of Ishmael and Esau? Would the Jewish Christian have a problem with this or would it be the Gentile Christians?


If God treaded you as privileged and special would you have a problem or would you have a problem if you were treated seemingly as common and others were treated with honor for no apparent reason?


This is the issue and Paul will explain over the rest of Romans 9-11.


Paul is specific with the issue Rms. 9: 19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”


Who is the “one of you” is this Jewish Christian (elect) or Gentile Christian (elect) or is this “non-elect” individual (this “letter” is written to Christians and not non-Christians)?


Can Jews say they cannot be blamed for failing in their honored position or would it be the Gentiles that would say they cannot be blamed since they were not in the honored position?


Is it really significant when it comes to what really counts, if you are born a gentile or Jew in first century Rome?


Are there issues and problems with being a first century Jew and was this a problem for Paul?


The Jews were created in a special honorable position that would bring forth the Messiah and everyone else was common in comparison (the Gentiles).


How do we know Paul is specifically addressing the Jew/Gentile issue? Rms. 9: 30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.


Paul is showing from the position of being made “common” vessels by God the Gentiles had an advantage over the born Israelites (vessels of honor) that had the Law, since the Law became a stumbling stone to them. They both needed faith to rely on God’s Love to forgive them.


Without going into the details of Romans 9-11 we conclude with this diatribe question: Romans 11: 11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!


The common vessels (gentiles) and the vessels of honor (Jews) are equal individually in what is really significant when it comes to salvation, so God is not being unjust or unfair with either group.


If there is still a question about who is being addressed in this section of Rms. 9-11, Paul tells us: Rms. 11: 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

Rm 9: 22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

This verse is not saying all the “vessels” created for a “common purpose” were created for destruction (they were not made from the start by the Potter “clay pigeons”). Everything that leaves the potter’s shop is of great quality. Those vessels for destruction can come from either the common group or the honor group, but God is being patient with them that will eventually be destroyed. The vessels God does develop great wrath against, will be readied for destruction, but how did they become worthy of destruction since they left the potter’s shop with his mark on them? Any vessel (honorable or common) that becomes damaged is not worthy of the potter’s signature and He would want it destroyed.

To understand this as Common vessels and special vessels look at the same idea using the same Greek words of Paul in 2 Tim 2: 20. There Paul even points out the common can become the honored vessel.

2 Tim. 2: 20 In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for special purposes and some for common use. 21 Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.

Important to note is the fact: the dishonorable vessel can cleanse themselves and become vessels of honor.

That is a short explanation, since you really need to study all of Romans especially chapters 9, 10 and 11. Also please look at individual laments in the Psalms and diatribes in general, I really cut those short.

 

[renniks]

futureandhope



Unfortunately you believe that which isnt true my friend. Romans 9 witnesses to that Rom 9:15-16

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Why has the gospel come to the gentiles, and the Jews been cast away?" This is the context of all of Romans 9-11.

It has nothing to do with an individual's predestination to salvation or damnation.
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

God chose to declare his name through the Jews. That was his choice. He could have done it through the Arabs - but he didn't.

 

[Brightfame52]

Why has the gospel come to the gentiles, and the Jews been cast away?" This is the context of all of Romans 9-11.

It has nothing to do with an individual's predestination to salvation or damnation.
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

God chose to declare his name through the Jews. That was his choice. He could have done it through the Arabs - but he didn't.

God determines before a person is born to do good or evil, what their destiny will be, heaven or hell.

 

[Brightfame52]

Romans 9

Paul uses two teaching methods throughout Romans even secular philosophy classes will use Romans as the best example of these methods. Paul does an excellent job of building one premise on the previous premises to develop his final conclusions. Paul uses an ancient form of rhetoric known as diatribe (imaginary debate) asking questions and most of the time giving a strong “By no means” and then goes on to explain “why not”. Paul’s method goes beyond just a general diatribe and follows closely to the diatribes used in the individual laments in the Psalms and throughout the Old Testament, which the Jewish Christians would have known extensively. These “questions or comments” are given by an “imaginary” student making it more a dialog with the readers (students) and not just a “sermon”.

The main topic repeated extensively in Romans is the division in the Christian house churches in Rome between the Jews and Gentile Christians. You can just look up how many times Jews and gentiles are referred to see this as a huge issue.


The main question (a diatribe question) in Romans 9 Paul addresses is God being fair or just Rms. 9: 14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!


This will take some explaining, since just prior in Romans 9, Paul went over some history of God’s dealings with the Israelites that sounds very “unjust” like “loving Jacob and hating Esau” before they were born, but remember in all of Paul’s diatribes he begins before, just after or before and just after with strong support for the wrong answer (this makes it more of a debate and giving the opposition the first shot as done in all diatribes).


Who in Rome would be having a “problem” with God choosing to work with Isaac and Jacob instead of Ishmael and Esau? Would the Jewish Christian have a problem with this or would it be the Gentile Christians?


If God treaded you as privileged and special would you have a problem or would you have a problem if you were treated seemingly as common and others were treated with honor for no apparent reason?


This is the issue and Paul will explain over the rest of Romans 9-11.


Paul is specific with the issue Rms. 9: 19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”


Who is the “one of you” is this Jewish Christian (elect) or Gentile Christian (elect) or is this “non-elect” individual (this “letter” is written to Christians and not non-Christians)?


Can Jews say they cannot be blamed for failing in their honored position or would it be the Gentiles that would say they cannot be blamed since they were not in the honored position?


Is it really significant when it comes to what really counts, if you are born a gentile or Jew in first century Rome?


Are there issues and problems with being a first century Jew and was this a problem for Paul?


The Jews were created in a special honorable position that would bring forth the Messiah and everyone else was common in comparison (the Gentiles).


How do we know Paul is specifically addressing the Jew/Gentile issue? Rms. 9: 30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.


Paul is showing from the position of being made “common” vessels by God the Gentiles had an advantage over the born Israelites (vessels of honor) that had the Law, since the Law became a stumbling stone to them. They both needed faith to rely on God’s Love to forgive them.


Without going into the details of Romans 9-11 we conclude with this diatribe question: Romans 11: 11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!


The common vessels (gentiles) and the vessels of honor (Jews) are equal individually in what is really significant when it comes to salvation, so God is not being unjust or unfair with either group.


If there is still a question about who is being addressed in this section of Rms. 9-11, Paul tells us: Rms. 11: 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

Rm 9: 22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

This verse is not saying all the “vessels” created for a “common purpose” were created for destruction (they were not made from the start by the Potter “clay pigeons”). Everything that leaves the potter’s shop is of great quality. Those vessels for destruction can come from either the common group or the honor group, but God is being patient with them that will eventually be destroyed. The vessels God does develop great wrath against, will be readied for destruction, but how did they become worthy of destruction since they left the potter’s shop with his mark on them? Any vessel (honorable or common) that becomes damaged is not worthy of the potter’s signature and He would want it destroyed.

To understand this as Common vessels and special vessels look at the same idea using the same Greek words of Paul in 2 Tim 2: 20. There Paul even points out the common can become the honored vessel.

2 Tim. 2: 20 In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for special purposes and some for common use. 21 Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.

Important to note is the fact: the dishonorable vessel can cleanse themselves and become vessels of honor.

That is a short explanation, since you really need to study all of Romans especially chapters 9, 10 and 11. Also please look at individual laments in the Psalms and diatribes in general, I really cut those short.

Romans 9 is about individual salvation. God decides who is saved and who is not. Thats what Romans 9 is all about.

 

[bling]

Romans 9 is about individual salvation. God decides who is saved and who is not. Thats what Romans 9 is all about.

Did you read what I said?
God decided before the earth began to save all those who accepted His charity as charity.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

futureandhope



Unfortunately you believe that which isnt true my friend. Romans 9 witnesses to that Rom 9:15-16

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

This is the same as saying, it is not by works of the law, but in God showing mercy through faith. If you have not done so already have a read over the references from the Early Church Fathers, you will see the early church believed in free will, it is not my idea, however, I have always believed in free will when reading scriptures. The following is just one quote from the early church. You can look up the who passage to get it's context:

Justin Martyr - First Apology - Ch 26-50​

….​

But when the Spirit of prophecy speaks of things that are about to come to pass as if they had already taken place, — as may be observed even in the passages already cited by me, — that this circumstance may afford no excuse to readers [for misinterpreting them], we will make even this also quite plain. The things which He absolutely knows will take place, He predicts as if already they had taken place. And that the utterances must be thus received, you will perceive, if you give your attention to them.​

….​

Chap. XLIII — Responsibility Asserted.​

But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate.​

 

[Clare73]

It is my belief that man has free will, that we are not fated by God to be either saved, or unsaved, but rather the action of salvation is a mixture of God's enlightening and our acting. As the book of Job mentions:

Job 36:10-12 He openeth also their ear to instruction, And commandeth that they return from iniquity. If they hearken and serve him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they hearken not, they shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.​

Both Jesus and the Early Church Fathers, within a generation of the Apostles, speak both of God giving light, goodwill, and knowledge of salvation to all men, and it is a choice of either obedience to what he reveals, resulting in life, or disobedience resulting in death.


We see this in both Jesus’ words.

John 1:9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.

Joh 14:21-24 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.​

And the Early Church Fathers, note this is only a few quotes, the early Church Fathers are full of like references.

Irenaeus in his Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 35-38

Chap. XXXVII. — Men Are Possessed of Free Will, and Endowed with the Faculty of Making a Choice. It Is Not True, Therefore, That Some Are by Nature Good, and Others Bad.

1. This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat 23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all….

…. And not merely in works, but also in faith, has God preserved the will of man free and under his own control, saying, “According to thy faith be it unto thee;” (Mat 9:29) thus showing that there is a faith specially belonging to man, since he has an opinion specially his own. And again, “All things are possible to him that believeth;” (Mat 9:23) and, “Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee.” (Mat 8:13) Now all such expressions demonstrate that man is in his own power with respect to faith. And for this reason, “he that believeth in Him has eternal life while he who believeth not the Son hath not eternal life, but the wrath of God shall remain upon him.” (Joh 3:36) In the same manner therefore the Lord, both showing His own goodness, and indicating that man is in his own free will and his own power, said to Jerusalem, “How often have I wished to gather thy children together, as a hen [gathereth] her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Wherefore your house shall be left unto you desolate.” (Mat 23:37, Mat 23:38)

Justin Martyr - First Apology - Ch 26-50

….

But when the Spirit of prophecy speaks of things that are about to come to pass as if they had already taken place, — as may be observed even in the passages already cited by me, — that this circumstance may afford no excuse to readers [for misinterpreting them], we will make even this also quite plain. The things which He absolutely knows will take place, He predicts as if already they had taken place. And that the utterances must be thus received, you will perceive, if you give your attention to them.

….

Chap. XLIII — Responsibility Asserted.

But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate.​

Now that we have seen that man is given free will, loved by God, we are going to try to give meaning within that context to Romans 9, which many people say speaks of God selecting an elect few, with no free will choice made on part of the man, that God chooses some and rejects others. Now it is true that God chooses some people to be saved and not others but based upon their response to God’s revelation of himself. As the following passage in Romans suggests:

Rom 1:21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.​

This idea that people's hearts are darkened by their own choice, to refuse God’s revelation, is further supported by the early Church Fathers.

Iranaeus - Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 39-End

4. But God, foreknowing all things, prepared fit habitations for both, kindly conferring that light which they desire on those who seek after the light of incorruption, and resort to it; but for the despisers and mockers who avoid and turn themselves away from this light, and who do, as it were, blind themselves, He has prepared darkness suitable to persons who oppose the light, and He has inflicted an appropriate punishment upon those who try to avoid being subject to Him. Submission to God is eternal rest, so that they who shun the light have a place worthy of their flight; and those who fly from eternal rest, have a habitation in accordance with their fleeing. Now, since all good things are with God, they who by their own determination fly from God, do defraud themselves of all good things; and having been [thus] defrauded of all good things with respect to God, they shall consequently fall under the just judgment of God.​

I would like to now take a look at Romans 9 in light of the belief that a) man has free will, b) man can choose to blind himself to the truth resulting in damnation, c) or man can accept the truth resulting in life, both actions totally under no cohesion, or fatalism. Why am I doing this? Because Romans 9 has been used by some to support a kind of fatalism, cohesion type of salvation.

First we are going to deal with the beginning of the passage, and look to the early Church Father Irenaeus to gather an understanding of how the early generation of the church taught regarding Romans 9. We see from his writings that the story of Jacob, and Esau was thought to be a symbolic picture of “two nations”, not a picture of two “people”, on how God saves individuals.

Irenaeus Against Heresies. (Cont.)

Book IV. (Cont.)

Chap. XXI. — Abraham’s Faith Was Identical with Ours; This Faith Was Prefigured by the Words and Actions of the Old Patriarchs.


2. The history of Isaac, too, is not without a symbolical character. For in the Epistle to the Romans, the apostle declares: “Moreover, when Rebecca had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac,” she received answer72 from the Word, “that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calleth, it was said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people are in thy body; and the one people shall overcome the other, and the elder shall serve the younger.” (Rom_9:10-13; Gen_25:23) From which it is evident, that not only [were there] prophecies of the patriarchs, but also that the children brought forth by Rebecca were a prediction of the two nations; and that the one should be indeed the greater, but the other the less; that the one also should be under bondage, but the other free; but [that both should be] of one and the same father. Our God, one and the same, is also their God, who knows hidden things, who knoweth all things before they can come to pass; and for this reason has He said, “Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.”​

The picture of two nations refers to the promise of where faith is found. As Jacob stole the birthright off his brother, by the will of God. So too did the Church, and Gentiles gain the birthright, although it was originally in the hands of the Jewish nation. We see here the picture of two nations reflecting where salvation occurs, by faith, not by works of the Jewish law. As stated:

Rom 9:11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),​

Again, Jacob and Esau are a picture of faith, given blessing not based upon their works, having done no good or evil, but upon the calling of God. The call to us which is faith, not works of the Jewish Law. Not in Esau (representing the Hebrew Nation) but in Jacob representing the nation of faith.

The passage concludes then enters:

Rom 9:14-16 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOMEVER I WILL HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOMEVER I WILL HAVE COMPASSION." So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.​

This is a reference to Jacob being chosen to rise up Christ's line, and Esau being rejected, it seems unrighteous, because it was not based upon works. To the Jews, the law was vitally important. They felt that by keeping the commandments of the law alone they could be saved. Paul is saying it is not of him, the man, who works, runs and follows the law, but salvation comes in God’s way, the way God chooses. To present the idea to the Jews that faith alone, not the law saved, would seem like unrighteousness, how can a man be saved without the law. But God says, I will have mercy my way. "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOMEVER I WILL HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOMEVER I WILL HAVE COMPASSION."


Now the passage talks about the blinding, and sinister plan, that occurs to those who the early Church Fathers said “blind themselves”, by rejecting God’s evidences. We have talked about salvation, and how it is not by works of the law.

Rom 9:17-24 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I HAVE RAISED YOU UP, THAT I MAY SHOW MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MAY BE DECLARED IN ALL THE EARTH." Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.​

The question asked by the sinner, is how can God find me at fault if He blinded me to the truth?

You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?​

The response by Paul is, that God “endured with much long-suffering” the vessels of wrath so that He could make known to us His rich blessing.

What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?​

When I think of long-suffering I think of:

Thanks for the explanation.. .but you digress here from Paul's argument.

While God acts freely and sovereignly as the potter, making from the same lump of clay some vessels for noble use and others for common use (human waste), he does not exercise his freedom of choice arbitrarily, and he shows great patience even toward the objects of his wrath, the purpose of such patience being to give them more time to fill up the measure of their iniquity (Genesis 15:16) by refusing to come to repentance.
The emphasis here is on God's mercy to the vessels of mercy, even to using the vessels of wrath for the sake of making known the riches of his glory to the vessels of mercy.

2 Peter 3:9 says: The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

I believe the long-suffering talked of by Paul and spoken of by the Church Fathers. Is that of God extending his hand over and over again to man, but some reject that, and end up blind to faith, and given to a sorry plan. But God is often, giving us mercy.

Job 33:28-30 He will redeem his soul from going down to the Pit, And his life shall see the light. "Behold, God works all these things, Twice, in fact, three times with a man, To bring back his soul from the Pit, That he may be enlightened with the light of life.​

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Thanks for the explanation.. .but you digress here from Paul's argument.

While God acts freely and sovereignly as the potter, making from the same lump of clay some vessels for noble use and others for common use (human waste), he does not exercise his freedom of choice arbitrarily, and he shows great patience even toward the objects of his wrath, the purpose of such patience being to give them more time to fill up the measure of their iniquity (Genesis 15:16) by refusing to come to repentance.
The emphasis here is on God's mercy to the vessels of mercy, even to using the vessels of wrath for the sake of making known the riches of his glory to them.

​

The difference in my theology to the one you ascribe to is the God I present does not pre-assign men to be either a vessel of honor or one of dishonor in some distant past (by His assignment), but rather there are certain things God does know, possibly even our future. But rather when speaking of vessels of wrath they disqualify themselves, by their free will choice. Then, and only then, God uses them for a sad purpose, i.e. raise them up to show wrath.

I put two quotes from the Church Fathers to demonstrate the early churches' understanding:

Iranaeus - Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 39-End
But God, foreknowing all things, prepared fit habitations for both, kindly conferring that light which they desire on those who seek after the light of incorruption, and resort to it; but for the despisers and mockers who avoid and turn themselves away from this light, and who do, as it were, blind themselves, He has prepared darkness suitable to persons who oppose the light, and He has inflicted an appropriate punishment upon those who try to avoid being subject to Him.

Justin Martyr - First Apology - Ch 26-50
But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate.
​

Now the above are only small quotes, to get the full context see the originals.

Jesus also was very clear to whom he would reveal Himself. Those who accept His revealed word, and obey it, the first work being "faith".

Joh 14:21-24 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.​

When does this manifestation occur, the minute, second after, and man chooses to submit his will to God. A man a) has God's commands, b) chooses to love them/obey them, c) God manifests Himself to the person in the saving sense. Yet I should add another step:

John 1:9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.

a) God reveals Himself, giving His command ... etc

What is the point of the marriage of the Lamb, if not it to be a free-will acceptance of the others' nature? God presents His nature, we either love it, becoming His bride, or we despise it. It is not by fatalism or Cohesion. Not only does fatalism, make God a hypocrite with regard to judgment, but it also makes no logical sense that man could be judged.

Justin Martyr - First Apology - Ch 56-50
...For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end;52 nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made....​

 

[renniks]

God determines before a person is born to do good or evil, what their destiny will be, heaven or hell.

Nope, that is a false assumption based on a poor understanding of scripture.

 

[Clare73]

The difference in my theology to the one you ascribe to is the God I present does not pre-assign men to be either a vessel of honor or one of dishonor in some distant past (by His assignment), but rather there are certain things God does know, possibly even our future. But rather when speaking of vessels of wrath they disqualify themselves, by their free will choice. Then, and only then, God uses them for a sad purpose, i.e. raise them up to show wrath.

Both the vessels of wrath and the vessels of mercy qualify by their own free choice.

I put two quotes from the Church Fathers to demonstrate the early churches' understanding:

Iranaeus - Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 39-End
But God, foreknowing all things, prepared fit habitations for both, kindly conferring that light which they desire on those who seek after the light of incorruption, and resort to it; but for the despisers and mockers who avoid and turn themselves away from this light, and who do, as it were, blind themselves, He has prepared darkness suitable to persons who oppose the light, and He has inflicted an appropriate punishment upon those who try to avoid being subject to Him.

Justin Martyr - First Apology - Ch 26-50
But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate.
​

Now the above are only small quotes, to get the full context see the originals.

Jesus also was very clear to whom he would reveal Himself. Those who accept His revealed word, and obey it, the first work being "faith".

Joh 14:21-24 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.​

When does this manifestation occur, the minute, second after, and man chooses to submit his will to God. A man a) has God's commands, b) chooses to love them/obey them, c) God manifests Himself to the person in the saving sense. Yet I should add another step:

John 1:9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.

a) God reveals Himself, giving His command ... etc

What is the point of the marriage of the Lamb, if not it to be a free-will acceptance of the others' nature? God presents His nature, we either love it, becoming His bride, or we despise it. It is not by fatalism or Cohesion. Not only does fatalism, make God a hypocrite with regard to judgment, but it also makes no logical sense that man could be judged.

Justin Martyr - First Apology - Ch 56-50
...For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end;52 nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made....​

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Both the vessels of wrath and the vessels of mercy qualify by their own free choice.

Your free will is not the same free will put forward by the early church. It is limited by your doctrine, but not by them. Justin Martyr is addressing the very false teaching your doctrine presents, which is fatalism based upon a supposed foreknowledge, one that cancels man's genuine choice. In the passage below he is essentially fighting the idea of predestination.

Justin Martyr - First Apology - Ch 26-50
But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate.

 

[fhansen]

It is my belief that man has free will, that we are not fated by God to be either saved, or unsaved, but rather the action of salvation is a mixture of God's enlightening and our acting. As the book of Job mentions:

Job 36:10-12 He openeth also their ear to instruction, And commandeth that they return from iniquity. If they hearken and serve him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they hearken not, they shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.​

Both Jesus and the Early Church Fathers, within a generation of the Apostles, speak both of God giving light, goodwill, and knowledge of salvation to all men, and it is a choice of either obedience to what he reveals, resulting in life, or disobedience resulting in death.


We see this in both Jesus’ words.

John 1:9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.

Joh 14:21-24 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.​

And the Early Church Fathers, note this is only a few quotes, the early Church Fathers are full of like references.

Irenaeus in his Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 35-38

Chap. XXXVII. — Men Are Possessed of Free Will, and Endowed with the Faculty of Making a Choice. It Is Not True, Therefore, That Some Are by Nature Good, and Others Bad.

1. This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat 23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all….

…. And not merely in works, but also in faith, has God preserved the will of man free and under his own control, saying, “According to thy faith be it unto thee;” (Mat 9:29) thus showing that there is a faith specially belonging to man, since he has an opinion specially his own. And again, “All things are possible to him that believeth;” (Mat 9:23) and, “Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee.” (Mat 8:13) Now all such expressions demonstrate that man is in his own power with respect to faith. And for this reason, “he that believeth in Him has eternal life while he who believeth not the Son hath not eternal life, but the wrath of God shall remain upon him.” (Joh 3:36) In the same manner therefore the Lord, both showing His own goodness, and indicating that man is in his own free will and his own power, said to Jerusalem, “How often have I wished to gather thy children together, as a hen [gathereth] her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Wherefore your house shall be left unto you desolate.” (Mat 23:37, Mat 23:38)

Justin Martyr - First Apology - Ch 26-50

….

But when the Spirit of prophecy speaks of things that are about to come to pass as if they had already taken place, — as may be observed even in the passages already cited by me, — that this circumstance may afford no excuse to readers [for misinterpreting them], we will make even this also quite plain. The things which He absolutely knows will take place, He predicts as if already they had taken place. And that the utterances must be thus received, you will perceive, if you give your attention to them.

….

Chap. XLIII — Responsibility Asserted.

But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate.​

Now that we have seen that man is given free will, loved by God, we are going to try to give meaning within that context to Romans 9, which many people say speaks of God selecting an elect few, with no free will choice made on part of the man, that God chooses some and rejects others. Now it is true that God chooses some people to be saved and not others but based upon their response to God’s revelation of himself. As the following passage in Romans suggests:

Rom 1:21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.​

This idea that people's hearts are darkened by their own choice, to refuse God’s revelation, is further supported by the early Church Fathers.

Iranaeus - Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 39-End

4. But God, foreknowing all things, prepared fit habitations for both, kindly conferring that light which they desire on those who seek after the light of incorruption, and resort to it; but for the despisers and mockers who avoid and turn themselves away from this light, and who do, as it were, blind themselves, He has prepared darkness suitable to persons who oppose the light, and He has inflicted an appropriate punishment upon those who try to avoid being subject to Him. Submission to God is eternal rest, so that they who shun the light have a place worthy of their flight; and those who fly from eternal rest, have a habitation in accordance with their fleeing. Now, since all good things are with God, they who by their own determination fly from God, do defraud themselves of all good things; and having been [thus] defrauded of all good things with respect to God, they shall consequently fall under the just judgment of God.​

I would like to now take a look at Romans 9 in light of the belief that a) man has free will, b) man can choose to blind himself to the truth resulting in damnation, c) or man can accept the truth resulting in life, both actions totally under no cohesion, or fatalism. Why am I doing this? Because Romans 9 has been used by some to support a kind of fatalism, cohesion type of salvation.

First we are going to deal with the beginning of the passage, and look to the early Church Father Irenaeus to gather an understanding of how the early generation of the church taught regarding Romans 9. We see from his writings that the story of Jacob, and Esau was thought to be a symbolic picture of “two nations”, not a picture of two “people”, on how God saves individuals.

Irenaeus Against Heresies. (Cont.)

Book IV. (Cont.)

Chap. XXI. — Abraham’s Faith Was Identical with Ours; This Faith Was Prefigured by the Words and Actions of the Old Patriarchs.


2. The history of Isaac, too, is not without a symbolical character. For in the Epistle to the Romans, the apostle declares: “Moreover, when Rebecca had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac,” she received answer72 from the Word, “that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calleth, it was said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people are in thy body; and the one people shall overcome the other, and the elder shall serve the younger.” (Rom_9:10-13; Gen_25:23) From which it is evident, that not only [were there] prophecies of the patriarchs, but also that the children brought forth by Rebecca were a prediction of the two nations; and that the one should be indeed the greater, but the other the less; that the one also should be under bondage, but the other free; but [that both should be] of one and the same father. Our God, one and the same, is also their God, who knows hidden things, who knoweth all things before they can come to pass; and for this reason has He said, “Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.”​

The picture of two nations refers to the promise of where faith is found. As Jacob stole the birthright off his brother, by the will of God. So too did the Church, and Gentiles gain the birthright, although it was originally in the hands of the Jewish nation. We see here the picture of two nations reflecting where salvation occurs, by faith, not by works of the Jewish law. As stated:

Rom 9:11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),​

Again, Jacob and Esau are a picture of faith, given blessing not based upon their works, having done no good or evil, but upon the calling of God. The call to us which is faith, not works of the Jewish Law. Not in Esau (representing the Hebrew Nation) but in Jacob representing the nation of faith.

The passage concludes then enters:

Rom 9:14-16 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOMEVER I WILL HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOMEVER I WILL HAVE COMPASSION." So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.​

This is a reference to Jacob being chosen to rise up Christ's line, and Esau being rejected, it seems unrighteous, because it was not based upon works. To the Jews, the law was vitally important. They felt that by keeping the commandments of the law alone they could be saved. Paul is saying it is not of him, the man, who works, runs and follows the law, but salvation comes in God’s way, the way God chooses. To present the idea to the Jews that faith alone, not the law saved, would seem like unrighteousness, how can a man be saved without the law. But God says, I will have mercy my way. "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOMEVER I WILL HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOMEVER I WILL HAVE COMPASSION."


Now the passage talks about the blinding, and sinister plan, that occurs to those who the early Church Fathers said “blind themselves”, by rejecting God’s evidences. We have talked about salvation, and how it is not by works of the law.

Rom 9:17-24 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I HAVE RAISED YOU UP, THAT I MAY SHOW MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MAY BE DECLARED IN ALL THE EARTH." Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.​

The question asked by the sinner, is how can God find me at fault if He blinded me to the truth?

You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?​

The response by Paul is, that God “endured with much long-suffering” the vessels of wrath so that He could make known to us His rich blessing.

What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?​

When I think of long-suffering I think of:

2 Peter 3:9 says: The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.​

I believe the long-suffering talked of by Paul and spoken of by the Church Fathers. Is that of God extending his hand over and over again to man, but some reject that, and end up blind to faith, and given to a sorry plan. But God is often, giving us mercy.

Job 33:28-30 He will redeem his soul from going down to the Pit, And his life shall see the light. "Behold, God works all these things, Twice, in fact, three times with a man, To bring back his soul from the Pit, That he may be enlightened with the light of life.​

Yes! And this has been the continuous teaching of the church since day one. Grace is essential to our salvation, in order for us to even begin to turn to Him, and yet God will never override the human will. We must play our part, in choosing good over evil, life over death, God over no God.

 

[Brightfame52]

Did you read what I said?
God decided before the earth began to save all those who accepted His charity as charity.

What you said is nowhere in scripture ! Romans 9 shows that God is Sovereign over Salvation, who gets it and who doesnt.

 

[Brightfame52]

This is the same as saying, it is not by works of the law, but in God showing mercy through faith. If you have not done so already have a read over the references from the Early Church Fathers, you will see the early church believed in free will, it is not my idea, however, I have always believed in free will when reading scriptures. The following is just one quote from the early church. You can look up the who passage to get it's context:

Justin Martyr - First Apology - Ch 26-50​

….​

But when the Spirit of prophecy speaks of things that are about to come to pass as if they had already taken place, — as may be observed even in the passages already cited by me, — that this circumstance may afford no excuse to readers [for misinterpreting them], we will make even this also quite plain. The things which He absolutely knows will take place, He predicts as if already they had taken place. And that the utterances must be thus received, you will perceive, if you give your attention to them.​

….​

Chap. XLIII — Responsibility Asserted.​

But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate.​

Again you believe that which is not true !

 

[Brightfame52]

Nope, that is a false assumption based on a poor understanding of scripture.

Sorry but its the Truth, whether you like it or accept it or not !

 

[bling]

What you said is nowhere in scripture ! Romans 9 shows that God is Sovereign over Salvation, who gets it and who doesnt.

What you are saying is not in Ro. 9.

 

[Clare73]

Your free will is not the same free will put forward by the early church.

Do you have any Scriptural support for whatever this early church view is?

It is limited by your doctrine, but not by them. Justin Martyr is addressing the very false teaching your doctrine presents, which is fatalism based upon a supposed foreknowledge,

I have no "doctrine," I have NT apostolic teaching.

Your use of "foreknowledge" indicates a misunderstanding of divine foreknowledge as God knowing in advance what man is going to do.

one that cancels man's genuine choice.
In the passage below he is essentially fighting the idea of predestination.

But predestination is NT apostolic teaching in Romans 8:29; Ephesians 1:5, Ephesians 1:11.

Why does he deny it? . . .And why would I ever agree with his denial of NT apostolic teaching?

Justin Martyr - First Apology - Ch 26-50
But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate.

 

[Clare73]

The difference in my theology to the one you ascribe to is the God I present does not pre-assign men to be either a vessel of honor or one of dishonor in some distant past (by His assignment), but rather there are certain things God does know, possibly even our future. But rather when speaking of vessels of wrath they disqualify themselves, by their free will choice. Then, and only then, God uses them for a sad purpose, i.e. raise them up to show wrath.

Then is the God you know that God which Paul the apostle knows?
For it is the apostle who received his gospel from Jesus Christ personally (Galatians 1:11-12) that presents vessels of honor and vessels of wrath, who are so by their own choice.

To avoid confusion regarding them, let me present my over-all view on the matters of Romans 9.

1) Election (choosing) is presented in Romans 9:11-12--the case of Jacob and Esau. . .based on nothing but God's sovereign right to choose whom he pleases to fulfill his purposes.

2) Then I understand God's "call" to be effective--not just a kind invitation, according to the purport of the following:

"No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." (John 6:65)
"All that the Father gives me will come to me," (John 6:37)
"I shall lose none of all that he has given me." (John 6:39).
Making "Paulism" and "Calvinism" the doctrine of Christ.

3) Then I understand divine "foreknowledge" in the sense of executing in the present the purpose and choice God (not man) made before the foundations of the world:

"Divine foreknowledge, as used in Scripture, does not refer to God knowing in advance what men are going to do, but refers to God knowing in advance what he is going to do. . .because he has decreed that he shall do it.
Acts 15:18 - "Known to the Lord for ages is his work."

Isaiah 48:3 - "I foretold (predestined) the former things of long ago,
my mouth announced (decreed) them, and I made them known;
then suddenly I acted, (foreknowledge executed), and they came to pass.

See Acts 2:23, 4:28; Isaiah 37:26.

God executed in their present the purpose and choice he made before the foundations of the world; i.e.,
God executed/accomplished (acted according to) his foreknowledge (his previous purpose and choice)," as in Jacob (Romans 9:11-12).

4) which brings me to Romans 8:29, "those God foreknew:"
In light of Matthew 7:23, "I never knew you," (which I see as meaning those not of John 6:37, above; i.e., not given to Jesus), I understand those God

"foreknew" to be those whom God lovingly knew (elected for regeneration and love of him) before the foundations of the world, whom he then

"predestined" (determined beforehand, foreordained) to be conformed to the image of his Son, whom he then

"called" with an effective call which accomplishes (John 6:37, above), whom he then

"justified" with the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ (Romans 1:17, Romans 3:21-22), and whom he then

"glorified" with the shared glory of Christ's inheritance (Romans 8:27),

and both the vessels of wrath and the vessels of mercy "qualifying" by their preference and free choice of unbelief and non-submission, or belief and submission.