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Sorry that I am slow. Can you detail your logic step by step?
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Sorry that I am slow. Can you detail your logic step by step?Every time you use English words in your posts, you practice what you condemn.
People should be able to function at a kindergarten level. Most people with a PhD in Education would not pass my test to qualify to get into the first grade. My son is very ambitious though. He was taking classes from 4 different universities when he was in High School.That's fine with me.
The Bible is pretty clear that we are not to add to the word of God. Revelation 22 "I testify to the one who hears the words of the prophecy contained in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book."I think it is an absurd viewpoint that doesn't matter in the bigger picture
There is nothing wrong with being a child though. Jesus said you have to be as a child to enter in.
We are mostly energy with very little substance. They say you can fit the whole universe into a mustard seed. Even some people say the size of a proton using quantum physics.Yes Jesus walks through walls in His spiritual body.
Ask a female pastor.
I posted a very specifically ordered set of verses that are some of the most critical verses on this topic, without infusing commentary. If you are interested, here is the post. <- Link hereHey all, I'm jumping into the thread a bit late. And the conversation has drifted a bit from the original post.
I want to ask more about Trinitarian doctrine. There was this post recently by a moderator that stated "Non-Trinitarianism may not be promoted anywhere on this site." I don't really have a dog in this race, but it seems that since this Christian Forums site that has areas are marked "Christian Only", I assumed there were areas for non-Christians to also debate. There are debates as to whether the creation descriptions in Genesis are real or mythical etc etc, and all that is considered appropriate grounds for discussion. But in contrast, this moderator states that discussion about non-Trinity is completely disallowed. Is belief in the Trinity more important, and above any questioning, than a belief that God made the world in 7 days vs over millions of years??
I have reviewed the wikipedia entry on the Trinity, and the doctrine was not formalized for over a hundred years after the death of Jesus. And not all agreed even then. And not every doctrine that was established at that time are believed by all today. Another Wikipedia site on non-trinitarians lists many modern denominations that have alternative views. Some of the founders of the denomination I attend (SDA) had Airianism leanings, though SDA is now formally and officially Trinitarian. So I am sympathetic to those that want to wrestle with this tricky point and come to independent conclusions.
So my takes on the Trinity:
- God has many attributes and features that we don't understand -- can't understand. So trying to pin down exactly how God works is going to end in frustration. In my human body, I have eyes, ears, hands, feet etc. I like to consider that God likewise has various powers that He also uses in various ways. If Jesus is God's "right hand", in my simplistic example, would that make Him the same as God? Or different? Or subordinate? Or Coequal? All these questions seem pointless to me, since I don't really understand God. Does He have a corporal body? Is He bounded by space and time? (I don't think so). A secular concept of our world is to describe "Mother Nature" -- wherein we personify all the laws of nature, and consider her to be peaceful at times or angry during a storm. Mother Nature doesn't exist in any one place and is acting everywhere at once. God is more/greater than nature, as is is nature's creator and author. But this analogy helps me consider that when considering God, I should not just think of a human-like figure sitting on a thrown in one location in heaven.
- With the vagaries of communication and limited human brainpower, there are going to be many ways to conceptualize things. When we don't understand how something works, we often try to come up with analogies -- though analogies don't completely capture a situation. Jesus used this same technique when teaching, saying "The kingdom of God is like...." The New Testament teaches us that Jesus was the "Son of God." But most don't think that the fact that this means that there is also a corresponding mother. My point is that is seems theologians are trying pin down exact truths based on analogies, which are given because we can't understand the true picture.
- Restricting dialog seems like a bad thing. Sure, if someone wanted to start discussing human sacrifice to the gods, I would be OK with restricting that. But on points that reasonable people have considered and come to different conclusions, I don't see why there can't be discussion.
- Some of the key texts in the Bible that support the Trinity may have been added later. Wikipedia discusses this here, quoted below with added emphasis.
- Regarding 1 John 5:7-8 -- Modern Biblical scholarship largely agrees that 1 John 5:7 seen in Latin and Greek texts after the 4th century and found in later translations such as the King James Translation, cannot be found in the oldest Greek and Latin texts. Verse 7 is known as the Johannine Comma, which most scholars agree to be a later addition by a later copyist or what is termed a textual gloss[31] and not part of the original text.Trinity - Wikipedia This verse reads: "Because there are three in Heaven that testify – the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit – and these three are one."
This verse is absent from the Ethiopic, Aramaic, Syriac, Slavic, early Armenian, Georgian, and Arabic translations of the Greek New Testament. It is primarily found in Latin manuscripts, although a minority of Greek, Slavonic and late Armenian manuscripts contain it.[32][33][34]
- Another Bible text (Matthew 28:19) is asserted by some to have been modified to support a Trinitarian view: See this discussion on Stack Exchange
Matt 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” (NIV)
All told, I think this is an iteresting topic to discuss and debate about. But ultimately there will be elements of the nature of God that we don't understand. It seems to be a divisive point. So I wonder if it is important for salvation?
What do you think?
Best wises,
KT
No, no one is saved by any kind of doctrine. You are saved when the Paraclete dwells in your spirit. It is a real transcendent event. See What does it mean to be born again?I wonder if it is important for salvation?
Promotion and discussion are not necessarily the same thing. The Advisor did not say discussion is not allowed, but rather that promotion is not allowed. Unfortunately, discussion often leads to promotion when people that hold opposing views to the Trinity "discuss" their views.I want to ask more about Trinitarian doctrine. There was this post recently by a moderator that stated "Non-Trinitarianism may not be promoted anywhere on this site." I don't really have a dog in this race, but it seems that since this Christian Forums site that has areas are marked "Christian Only", I assumed there were areas for non-Christians to also debate. There are debates as to whether the creation descriptions in Genesis are real or mythical etc etc, and all that is considered appropriate grounds for discussion. But in contrast, this moderator states that discussion about non-Trinity is completely disallowed.
Yes, it is more important. A six day creation is not salvific and is not a core doctrine about the nature of God.Is belief in the Trinity more important, and above any questioning, than a belief that God made the world in 7 days vs over millions of years??
Promotion and discussion are not necessarily the same thing. The Advisor did not say discussion is not allowed, but rather that promotion is not allowed. Unfortunately, discussion often leads to promotion when people that hold opposing views to the Trinity "discuss" their views.
It is perfectly fine to discuss, to question or have questions about the Trinity, but promoting alternatives, such as Arianism, is not allowed. So, someone could ask for more clarity on the Trinity and people can answer or discuss, but someone that believes in Arianism or Modalism would not be allowed to promote those views.
No, promoting any religion (or lack of) other than Nicene Christianity is not allowed. Discussion or clarification when asked is OK, but the line between promotion and discussion can be easy to cross.Can someone promote atheism in the part of this forum that is not marked Christian only? Not that I am wanting this, just trying to understand the boundaries.
Thanks in advance
KT
Who are you? What authority do you represent?Disclaimer: I am not against people using the term Trinity. I neither affirm nor deny Trinity.
Where does the Bible use the term "Bible"?Does the Bible support the concept of the Trinity?
You know better than the Church Fathers and the Reformers?Sure. The term was first used by Tertullian around 200 AD. I am not against the concept of the Trinity. I am not even against the word "Trinity". My point is this: I prefer not to use the term Trinity in argumentation.
So do you use the term "Homoousios" as they did?Moreover, there is plurality in unity within the divine being.
However, when it comes to doctrines, I prefer to adhere to the wording of Scripture. Trinitarians likely penned the Apostles' Creed and the Nicene Creed, yet they did not include the word "Trinity" in their creeds.
The Bible uses the term Hypostasis. Do you use it?Isaiah 9:
Do these titles refer to the same person?
When applied to the Divinity, the term person is loaded too much with anthropomorphism. I prefer to stick to the wording of the Scripture and use the term witness instead.
I am a human being. I do not represent any authority.Who are you? What authority do you represent?
So you do not have authority to decide what terms the Church should use and what terms the Church should not use.I am a human being. I do not represent any authority.
Right. Further, I do not have the authority to decide what terms you should use or what terms you should not use.So you do not have authority to decide what terms the Church should use and what terms the Church should not use.
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