My take on original sin

[tonychanyt]

See My take on Original Sin

 

[Mark Quayle]

Original sin is the idea that every human being is born inheriting a state of sinfulness from Adam and Eve. The term is not in the Bible. I prefer to stick to Scripture's phraseology when it comes to doctrines.

Romans 3:


We are all guilty of sin, original or not, and we all need the blood of Christ to redeem us.

Did Jesus inherit the original sin?

I don't think so. No human inherits the original sin, but we all sin except Jesus.

Regarding babies in the womb, Romans 8:


Why do babies die?

We all die, 1 Corinthians 15:


We all die because of the consequence of the first sin. Even Jesus died. Adam and Eve fell and brought the first sin into the world. As a consequence, everyone is subject to death. Babies are born into a sinful world. They could physically die at birth, but they are not automatically condemned to eternal death because of Adam's or Eve's sin. They do not die for the first sin itself. They die because of the consequence of being existing in a sinful world.

Did Adam and Eve have a sinful nature?

Everyone has a sinful nature to more or less extent. After the fall, sin affected the environment. Sin increased and became prevalent. There were more opportunities to sin.

Because humans are created in God's image, we also have a righteous nature in our consciences to some extent.

Adam and Eve had a better chance not to sin in their pure environment than we are today in our sinful world.

Good post.

Your first paragraph reminds me of a discussion I have had several times, lately, concerning common core math vs new math vs old math vs simple reasoning and logic and knowledge of numbers. Most of the time and confusion that students have to wade through concerning maths is simply to figure out what in the world the teacher is trying to say or do. The methods are discouraging.

Just so, when we discuss, all too often, we first have to figure out what the poster means by the words he uses, before we can discuss the point. Every time someone uses the term, "Original Sin", I have to go back in my mind, even to what I mean by it, and just what it is that I believe, then to figure out what the other thinks it means and implies, and from where the term descends. Then, on top of it all, I have to remember that what we are discussing is, in the end, only a way to think about the question, and not in itself the fact of the matter.

 

[fhansen]

Original sin is the idea that every human being is born inheriting a state of sinfulness from Adam and Eve. The term is not in the Bible. I prefer to stick to Scripture's phraseology when it comes to doctrines.

Romans 3:


We are all guilty of sin, original or not, and we all need the blood of Christ to redeem us.

Did Jesus inherit the original sin?

I don't think so. No human inherits the original sin, but we all sin except Jesus.

Regarding babies in the womb, Romans 8:


Why do babies die?

We all die, 1 Corinthians 15:


We all die because of the consequence of the first sin. Even Jesus died. Adam and Eve fell and brought the first sin into the world. As a consequence, everyone is subject to death. Babies are born into a sinful world. They could physically die at birth, but they are not automatically condemned to eternal death because of Adam's or Eve's sin. They do not die for the first sin itself. They die because of the consequence of being existing in a sinful world.

Did Adam and Eve have a sinful nature?

Everyone has a sinful nature to more or less extent. After the fall, sin affected the environment. Sin increased and became prevalent. There were more opportunities to sin.

Because humans are created in God's image, we also have a righteous nature in our consciences to some extent.

Adam and Eve had a better chance not to sin in their pure environment than we are today in our sinful world.

A classic understanding is that we inherited an unjust state of being from Adam & Eve: spiritual/moral separation from God. Man became his own "god" by denying the authority of the real God with his act of disobedience. That state of separation or alienation is known as "original sin". It's something that's not meant to be, an anomaly, an evil, a sin as it's outside the will of God for man. All creation is meant to be in subjugation to its Creator. For rational beings with free will this means a conscious subjugation. Faith is the reversal of this situation; faith is to acknowledge God as God, and as our God, again. Either way, man as a moral agent apart from God will inevitably sin. But with God we overcome sin. And we were never created to sin to begin with! The lesson that man is here to learn: "Apart from Me you can do nothing." John 15:5

We don't inherit a "sin nature", as if something has been added to us; rather we inherit a disadvantaged state where the most vital part of our existence is missing: God. And that makes us sick, dead, wounded, disordered-and woefully unable to retain perfect moral integrity.

 

[JoeT]

Did Adam and Eve have a sinful nature?

If they did then your god is pernicious making evil things then condemning them for acting out their innate nature.

JoeT

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Original sin is the idea that every human being is born inheriting a state of sinfulness from Adam and Eve. The term is not in the Bible. I prefer to stick to Scripture's phraseology when it comes to doctrines.

Romans 3:


We are all guilty of sin, original or not, and we all need the blood of Christ to redeem us.

Did Jesus inherit the original sin?

I don't think so. No human inherits the original sin, but we all sin except Jesus.

Regarding babies in the womb, Romans 8:


Why do babies die?

We all die, 1 Corinthians 15:


We all die because of the consequence of the first sin. Even Jesus died. Adam and Eve fell and brought the first sin into the world. As a consequence, everyone is subject to death. Babies are born into a sinful world. They could physically die at birth, but they are not automatically condemned to eternal death because of Adam's or Eve's sin. They do not die for the first sin itself. They die because of the consequence of being existing in a sinful world.

Did Adam and Eve have a sinful nature?

Everyone has a sinful nature to more or less extent. After the fall, sin affected the environment. Sin increased and became prevalent. There were more opportunities to sin.

Because humans are created in God's image, we also have a righteous nature in our consciences to some extent.

Adam and Eve had a better chance not to sin in their pure environment than we are today in our sinful world.

Original Sin is a heresy originated by Augustine who misinterpreted Romans 5:12 through his reading of Jerome's Latin Bible instead of referring to the original Greek, and examining the Early Church fathers who fully supported man's responsibility for sin and free will to turn to Christ, opening the way for the Holy Spirit to bring enlightenment and saving faith.

 

[fhansen]

Original Sin is a heresy originated by Augustine who misinterpreted Romans 5:12 through his reading of Jerome's Latin Bible instead of referring to the original Greek, and examining the Early Church fathers who fully supported man's responsibility for sin and free will to turn to Christ, opening the way for the Holy Spirit to bring enlightenment and saving faith.

The doctrine of original sin seeks to explain why there is moral evil in the world, why man inevitably sins. And Rom 5:19 supports this.

"For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous."

How did all become sinners by the disobedience of one man? It was because all humanity was alienated from God by that act, i.e. we died, we're "born dead", in need of being born again. Man cannot retain moral integrity unless he is reconciled with and in communion with God, our life.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

The doctrine of original sin seeks to explain why there is moral evil in the world, why man inevitably sins. And Rom 5:19 supports this.

"For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous."

How did all become sinners by the disobedience of one man? It was because all humanity was alienated from God by that act, i.e. we died, we're "born dead", in need of being born again. Man cannot retain moral integrity unless he is reconciled with and in communion with God, our life.

If we were all "born dead" then your view would be that babies and infants, if they died before their age of accountability, would automatically go to hell. I think that is very unjust and cruel and right against God's nature and character. I believe that babies and infants are innocent until they reach the age of accountability where they know right from wrong and then choose to sin, which they will inevitably do. All it takes is just one sin to condemn a person,, because the Scripture says that if a person breaks the Law just once, they are guilty of the whole Law.

Paul says that before he was aware of the Law (before the age of accountability) he had no consciousness of sin, but when the Law came to him with the age of accountability where he then knew the difference between right and wrong, sin entered his life and he died. This is the way to interpret that Scripture reference.

 

[fhansen]

If we were all "born dead" then your view would be that babies and infants, if they died before their age of accountability, would automatically go to hell. I think that is very unjust and cruel and right against God's nature and character. I believe that babies and infants are innocent until they reach the age of accountability where they know right from wrong and then choose to sin, which they will inevitably do. All it takes is just one sin to condemn a person,, because the Scripture says that if a person breaks the Law just once, they are guilty of the whole Law.

Paul says that before he was aware of the Law (before the age of accountability) he had no consciousness of sin, but when the Law came to him with the age of accountability where he then knew the difference between right and wrong, sin entered his life and he died. This is the way to interpret that Scripture reference.

We’re all born with a serious disadvantage, an injustice; we lack “knowledge of God”, prior to any sin that we’ll inevitably commit later on. That is what must be dealt with before all else. As far as babies are concerned, the church has never taught that they go to hell; God deals with them however a loving God would.

 

[tonychanyt]

We’re all born with a serious disadvantage, an injustice; we lack “knowledge of God”, prior to any sin that we’ll inevitably commit later on.

verse?

 

[fhansen]

verse?

How is a person saved? Why do we need the following knowledge, what does it consist of, what difference does it make?

"I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord." Jer 31:33-34

"Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." John 17:3

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

We’re all born with a serious disadvantage, an injustice; we lack “knowledge of God”, prior to any sin that we’ll inevitably commit later on. That is what must be dealt with before all else. As far as babies are concerned, the church has never taught that they go to hell; God deals with them however a loving God would.

The RCC certainly teaches original sin and it teaches that unbaptised babies and infants will go to hell. I believe that man's sinfulness is environmental rather than genetic.

 

[fhansen]

The RCC certainly teaches original sin and it teaches that unbaptised babies and infants will go to hell. I believe that man's sinfulness is environmental rather than genetic.

The Catholic Church ilnever taught that unbaptized infants go to hell. It went with the concept of limbo for the most part for centuries but now basically teaches that we can't know; we simply entrust them to the hands of a loving God.

Either way, the church teaches that 1) man is accountable for his actions and, 2) that is actions will not be righteous until and unless he is in a communion with God, a union defined and bound by love, that union, itself, being the basis of his righteousness- and true life.

 

[Mark Quayle]

If they did then your god is pernicious making evil things then condemning them for acting out their innate nature.

JoeT

You think 'innate nature' for some reason deserves God's respect? He has the right to do as he will with what he made. There is no reason to even consider a person to be sentient any level close to God's sentience. Even our very existence is nothing like his. We are bugs, except for God's purposes, and because of God's purposes.

Look through scripture. Is there any reason to think God loves everyone equally? God owes nobody anything. We are not his fellow residents within a larger reality.

God's justice is according to right and wrong, obedience to or rebellion against God; by innate nature we are all deserving of the consequence of sin, but there are some he made for another purpose, and upon only those, underserving though they are, HE had mercy.

 

[JoeT]

You think 'innate nature' for some reason deserves God's respect?

As a matter of fact I do, we are made with a divinely instituted law, its called the laws of nature. [Cf. Romans 2:13-15] Man has an inborn pattern governing activities and tendencies toward a common response. It is hardwired into the human experience. As an example it is our human nature to look self-preservation and love and protection of the young.

He has the right to do as he will with what he made. There is no reason to even consider a person to be sentient any level close to God's sentience. Even our very existence is nothing like his. We are bugs, except for God's purposes, and because of God's purposes.

Where did this come from? Did someone suggest otherwise?

Look through scripture. Is there any reason to think God loves everyone equally? God owes nobody anything. We are not his fellow residents within a larger reality.

Again, I don't believe any of this has been discussed in this thread. Its obvious in our human experience that God does not hold or treat us "equally". But, those in the Body of Christ, i.e. the Church, do indeed live in an enlightened reality being the pillar of truth and the bride of Christ.

God's justice is according to right and wrong, obedience to or rebellion against God; by innate nature we are all deserving of the consequence of sin,

We are guilty and deserving of the punishment of death. We are not made in the image of Adam, rather we are made in the image of God. We inherit the punishment of sin as a result of being decedents of Adam. Since actual sin is a voluntary immoral act, we inherit the guilt of sin – not the nature of committing sin. Similar to a child born during a war started by the child’s king. The child never participated, nor instigated the war. Yet when his king loses the battle, the child is now burdened with reparations.

Without justice any act is avaricious. It could be said Adam once abides in God, much like we are invited to abide in Christ partaking in the Eucharist. [John 6:57].

but there are some he made for another purpose, and upon only those, undeserving though they are, HE had mercy.

Nothing God does is unjust - you're not making much sense.

JoeT

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

As a matter of fact I do, we are made with a divinely instituted law, its called the laws of nature. [Cf. Romans 2:13-15] Man has an inborn pattern governing activities and tendencies toward a common response. It is hardwired into the human experience. As an example it is our human nature to look self-preservation and love and protection of the young.


Where did this come from? Did someone suggest otherwise?

Again, I don't believe any of this has been discussed in this thread. Its obvious in our human experience that God does not hold or treat us "equally". But, those in the Body of Christ, i.e. the Church, do indeed live in an enlightened reality being the pillar of truth and the bride of Christ.

We are guilty and deserving of the punishment of death. We are not made in the image of Adam, rather we are made in the image of God. We inherit the punishment of sin as a result of being decedents of Adam. Since actual sin is a voluntary immoral act, we inherit the guilt of sin – not the nature of committing sin. Similar to a child born during a war started by the child’s king. The child never participated, nor instigated the war. Yet when his king loses the battle, the child is now burdened with reparations.

Without justice any act is avaricious. It could be said Adam once abides in God, much like we are invited to abide in Christ partaking in the Eucharist. [John 6:57].


Nothing God does is unjust - you're not making much sense.

JoeT

God did not create people for the purpose of sending them to hell. He is not willing that any should perish but that all may come to repentance. What this means is that every person has the opportunity and the ability to believe the Gospel and to be saved. There if a person remains unsaved after hearing the Gospel, it is not because he cannot believe, It is because he refuses to believe the Gospel. It is the devil (the god of this world) who has blinded those who believe not lest they should see the glorious Gospel of Christ. It seems that when a person refuses to believe the preaching of the Gospel, the devil comes and blinds the person so they cannot see it. But for the person who believes the preaching of the Gospel, the Holy Spirit makes sure that they see what the Gospel is all about and thus they are able to receive Christ as Saviour.

This is the basis on which mankind is judged. They are judged because they chose not to believe the preaching of the Gospel. They had the opportunity through God's invitation to believe the Gospel and come to Christ, but they missed the opportunity because of their unbelief. They are judged on their own choice. If God had prevented people from taking advantage of the opportunity to come to Christ, then they would have a sure defence in the judgment. But there is no defence in the judgment, because God has given opportunity to all to believe the Gospel, which they refused.

 

[Mark Quayle]

JoeT said:
If they did then your god is pernicious making evil things then condemning them for acting out their innate nature.

Mark Quayle said:
You think 'innate nature' for some reason deserves God's respect?

As a matter of fact I do, we are made with a divinely instituted law, its called the laws of nature. [Cf. Romans 2:13-15] Man has an inborn pattern governing activities and tendencies toward a common response. It is hardwired into the human experience. As an example it is our human nature to look self-preservation and love and protection of the young.

Humans aren't the only ones to naturally behave according to socially productive and other hardwired norms. As I said below, our self-esteemed status of "sentient" is that of "creature", not "nearly creators ourselves". We are infinitely lower than him. That nature is part of what we are —and not something to whom he owes respect.

Nevertheless, that argument is kind of a red herring. What I was referring to as innate nature was closer to the subject you discuss below about the sin nature. One's innate sin nature deserves only death, not respect.

Mark Quayle said:
He has the right to do as he will with what he made. There is no reason to even consider a person to be sentient any level close to God's sentience. Even our very existence is nothing like his. We are bugs, except for God's purposes, and because of God's purposes.

Where did this come from? Did someone suggest otherwise?

In a way, yes. The mindset that raises us up to God's level, that he should respect us in some way in and of ourselves, instead of "in him", has a false view of either man, God, or both. A frame of mind that condemns the notion of God making men worthy of destruction and then destroying them is a self-exalting frame of mind, in my opinion.

Mark Quayle said:
Look through scripture. Is there any reason to think God loves everyone equally? God owes nobody anything. We are not his fellow residents within a larger reality.

Again, I don't believe any of this has been discussed in this thread. Its obvious in our human experience that God does not hold or treat us "equally". But, those in the Body of Christ, i.e. the Church, do indeed live in an enlightened reality being the pillar of truth and the bride of Christ.

I'm glad to hear you see that he doesn't love everyone equally. I brought it up to bear against the notion commonly presented that God works corporately in salvation, leaving the particulars of who is and who is not saved to the individuals accessing his grace. NOBODY deserves God's respect, in and of themselves.

Mark Quayle said:
God's justice is according to right and wrong, obedience to or rebellion against God; by innate nature we are all deserving of the consequence of sin,

We are guilty and deserving of the punishment of death. We are not made in the image of Adam, rather we are made in the image of God. We inherit the punishment of sin as a result of being decedents of Adam. Since actual sin is a voluntary immoral act, we inherit the guilt of sin – not the nature of committing sin. Similar to a child born during a war started by the child’s king. The child never participated, nor instigated the war. Yet when his king loses the battle, the child is now burdened with reparations.

Without justice any act is avaricious. It could be said Adam once abides in God, much like we are invited to abide in Christ partaking in the Eucharist. [John 6:57].

Not sure what that argument is about. Do you believe in inherited/imputed sin guilt, but that the fallen human nature in and of itself is not worthy of death?

Mark Quayle said:
but there are some he made for another purpose, and upon only those, undeserving though they are, HE had mercy.

Nothing God does is unjust - you're not making much sense.

Not sure what you are saying here, either. Are you saying that I'm just making random statements you don't see applicable to my objection of your first claim (copied above), concerning a pernicious god, or are you saying that I'm describing an unjust god, there? Remember, I wrote all those statements that you have pulled apart as a whole body of meaning, not as individual statements. One thing builds upon another, as is the usual way with speech or writing.

But my point with that is that God is not unjust to choose some and not others, upon whom to show mercy. He is not at all pernicious to do so.

If our little discussion here continues, we can, if you wish, get into more particulars concerning the point-of-view I see you as holding vs. what I think to be the truth. Just as a taste, your argument at the first, re. the pernicious god, seems (to me) to assume the false presumption that the command necessarily implies the ability to obey. Instead, the command demonstrates our need for him.

 

[FenderTL5]

The RCC certainly teaches original sin and it teaches that unbaptised babies and infants will go to hell. I believe that man's sinfulness is environmental rather than genetic.

I could be wrong but I don't think the present day RCC teaches that. However, that was indeed the teaching of Augustine countering Pelagius.
Pelagius was teaching that infants could be saved without Baptism. Augustine's response was that infants who die without Baptism are consigned to hell. I've read that a hardcore Augustinian view has been prominent in Latin teaching at times but not the prevailing view.

 

[Valletta]

The RCC certainly teaches original sin and it teaches that unbaptised babies and infants will go to hell. I believe that man's sinfulness is environmental rather than genetic.

1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them," allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

Catechism of the Catholic Church - Paragraph # 1261

www.scborromeo.org

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

Paul says that before he was aware of the Law (before the age of accountability) he had no consciousness of sin, but when the Law came to him with the age of accountability where he then knew the difference between right and wrong, sin entered his life and he died. This is the way to interpret that Scripture reference.

I would disagree this is the way to interpret Scripture.

See my OP: Is Romans 7:9 a proof text for the Age of Accountability?

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

We are not made in the image of Adam, rather we are made in the image of God.

No. We are made in the image of Adam.

Genesis 5:1-3
When God created mankind, he made them in the likeness of God. 2 He created them male and female and blessed them. And he named them “Mankind”[a] when they were created. 3 When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth.