My Reconciliation Challenge

[AV1611VET]

When this is the basis of your belief system about the entire universe and everything in it, there is no assertion that isn't equally plausible with the next.

However, experience shows us that the universe is not propped up by a foundation of "supralogic" and "suprarationale", for there really is logic and reason today. Things can make sense. Events can be predicted. The universe can be understood in rational terms.

Thus, your premise fails.

TC --- there is logic, and then there is Logic.

Our logic is down here, God's logic is up there, so much higher than our own.

[bible]Isaiah 55:8-9[/bible]
[bible]1 Corinthians 15:48[/bible]

The idea that if it doesn't fit our standards, it doesn't exist or didn't happen, is dangerous.

 

[AV1611VET]

...... goddidit

Man, I love this explanation. I was gonna refute what you said until you threw this in and caught me off-guard. I still disagree with the first part of your post, but this more than makes up for it.

 

[TheManeki]

The idea that if it doesn't fit our standards, it doesn't exist or didn't happen, is dangerous.

So is the idea that if reality contradicts an already-contested interpretation of a part of scripture, reality -- and not the interpretation -- is at fault.

 

[Vene]

Psst, where did the energy come from before it blew (expanded)? Remember, I want an answer from a Christian's perspective.

I can't give you a Christian perspective. It won't be one, I'm sorry, but that's the honest truth. As to where the energy came from, I don't know. I've recall reading about the idea that it has just been. I've also read that since there was no time until the big bang asking about before is essentially meaningless. But I'm going to stick with I don't know. This isn't my field, maybe one of our resident physicists could answer this question. Or maybe a future one will.

 

[TheOP]

TC --- there is logic, and then there is Logic.

Our logic is down here, God's logic is up there, so much higher than our own.

No, logic is logic. It doesn't belong to anyone but is an objective set of principles which generally should be observed in a debate or when justifying actions. Nobody "Invents" the Strawman fallacy, Appeal to Ridicule, or Style over Substance, they are simply inherent observations on internal consistency.

 

[RealityCheck]

In which point(s) --- I made five of them.

You only made one - regarding ex nihilo being agreed upon by all Christians.

I disagree.

 

[Braunwyn]

You only made one - regarding ex nihilo being agreed upon by all Christians.

I disagree.

lol the board won't let me rep you again. My husband thinks i'm crazy because i've been laughing at the computer all-day.

 

[tcampen]

TC --- there is logic, and then there is Logic.

Our logic is down here, God's logic is up there, so much higher than our own.

That's a meaningless statement. Your assertion renders an use of logic or reason to refer to god(s) as meaningless, as our limited understanding of these concepts have no application to him/her/it/them.

The idea that if it doesn't fit our standards, it doesn't exist or didn't happen, is dangerous.

The idea that one can make up anything they want to justify anything they want is infinitely more dangerous. When we assert things like "God's will is X" and "We cannot question God's will, because God is beyond understanding", then God's will becomes nothing more than a thinly veiled patsy for our own will. Only through the application of reason can we have any chance of doing the right thing.

 

[us38]

Supralogical ≠ no logic; and suprarational ≠ non-rational.

Yes, they do. Something cannot be both bound by and free from logic, and something that is not rational is, by definition, non-rational (I really shouldn't have to explain this).

 

[Nathan Poe]

Well I'm sure they're out there somewhere; but I would say they constitute a very small minority within the Christian community.

James Ussher was a minority of one within the Christian community -- you have no problem accepting his word as Gospel truth.

 

[FishFace]

Psst, where did the energy come from before it blew (expanded)? Remember, I want an answer from a Christian's perspective.

Well, "Joe Christian" would say, Gawd dunnit. A physicist would probably say he doesn't know since he would know about M theory etc.

 

[FishFace]

But what if the universe has Embedded Logic in it? Huh? Yeah! It is a logic-infused chunker floating in the infinite sea of supra-logic!

Of course you could then ask how we know this but that would require another challenge I'm sure.

Did the logic come with a belly button?

 

[FishFace]

Yes, they do. Something cannot be both bound by and free from logic, and something that is not rational is, by definition, non-rational (I really shouldn't have to explain this).

Seconded. "Supra"logical is just a snazzy way of saying illogical.

 

[AV1611VET]

Psst, the Big Bang is not out of nothing, it's the conversion of energy into matter. It's not magic.

Psst, where did the energy come from before it blew (expanded)? Remember, I want an answer from a Christian's perspective.

I can't give you a Christian perspective.

In that case, I'll stick with the fact that even from a Christian perspective the Big Bang can be traced to ex nihilo creation.

 

[AV1611VET]

You only made one - regarding ex nihilo being agreed upon by all Christians.

I disagree.

You disagree with what? That not all Christians agree with creatio ex nihilo, or are you saying you, personally, disagree with creatio ex nihilo?

 

[AV1611VET]

James Ussher was a minority of one within the Christian community -- you have no problem accepting his word as Gospel truth.

James Ussher is not here to defend his POV. I want to simply ask one of these supposedly Christians-who-dont-believe-in-ex-nihilo-creation what they do believe. That's all.

 

[Braunwyn]

James Ussher is not here to defend his POV. I want to simply ask one of these supposedly Christians-who-dont-believe-in-ex-nihilo-creation what they do believe. That's all.

But your original position was that you "all" agreed on ex nihilo. Or do you just want to redirect the conversation when you find yourself stumped, as usual? It's not a sin to make an error you know.

 

[Nathan Poe]

James Ussher is not here to defend his POV.

We have you for that.

I want to simply ask one of these supposedly Christians-who-dont-believe-in-ex-nihilo-creation what they do believe. That's all.

And I want to ask you why Ussher's words get such Divine weight attached to them by you.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

James Ussher is not here to defend his POV. I want to simply ask one of these supposedly Christians-who-dont-believe-in-ex-nihilo-creation what they do believe. That's all.

That God created the universe through purely natural processes... i.e. he set the ranges and amounts 15 billion years ago, and set the whole thing in motion.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

We have you for that.



And I want to ask you why Ussher's words get such Divine weight attached to them by you.

because Ussher is a book of the KJV, obviously.