My Reconciliation Challenge

[AV1611VET]

My point is, nevermind the EACs here in the evo debate for a sec, you can't even find an OEC that will take your "embedded age" line, and they're supposedly on the same side of this debate as you..!

Once again, let me make something clear. I don't accept the charge that we Christians cannot get the Creation straight. I don't know of any Christian that disagrees with me that this universe was created ex nihilo. Whether one believes in Gap, OEC, YEC, Omphalos, Big Bang, or whatever, that all comes afterward. In fact, if there are any Christians that disagree with me, I invite them to let me know. I'm curious as to how they think matter got here.

 

[AV1611VET]

Two contradictory statements. No way to logically reconcile them (unless you do the trick of adding "at least" to the first statement). I wonder what response you would get in the Creationism subforum.

Wow --- three locked threads --- just on the first page!

 

[Braunwyn]

Once again, let me make something clear. I don't accept the charge that we Christians cannot get the Creation straight. I don't know of any Christian that disagrees with me that this universe was created ex nihilo.

Really. A quick google brought me to this. "Thomas Jay Oord argues that Christians should abandon the doctrine of creation ex nihilo."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ex_nihilo

Whether that's true or not, I don't know. Either way, I don't see many folk on this forum arguing about it...much I guess.

 

[AV1611VET]

There's no point in arguing with someone who outright rejects logic. You do realize that by making this challenge and this ammendment to it that you are saying god is irrational, right?

Supralogical ≠ no logic; and suprarational ≠ non-rational.

 

[Soul Searcher]

How would you reconcile these two statements w/o being disrespectful to either one:

1. This rock has been in existence for 6100 years.
2. This rock is 4.57 billion years old.

Logically one of those statements must be false

 

[RealityCheck]

Once again, let me make something clear. I don't accept the charge that we Christians cannot get the Creation straight. I don't know of any Christian that disagrees with me that this universe was created ex nihilo. Whether one believes in Gap, OEC, YEC, Omphalos, Big Bang, or whatever, that all comes afterward. In fact, if there are any Christians that disagree with me, I invite them to let me know. I'm curious as to how they think matter got here.

I specifically disagree with you.

 

[AV1611VET]

As a Christian, as a clergy person, and as person who is almost finished his Masters degree in theology, I want to ask where you got the number 6100? Its not biblical, but if you can show me that the Bible somehow indicates that number I would happy to reconcile that statement for you. Otherwise, I must conclude that you are a heretic.

Wow --- anyone else calling me that, and I would have just laughed it off --- but coming from someone with whom I consider a brother in Christ; well, that kinda stung.

In any event --- you're right --- I cannot take the Bible and come up with the number 6100; but I can do what Bishop Ussher did and come up with 4100. Then, adding secular history, tack on another 2000.

I go with Ussher's statement that the Creation occurred in 4004 BC.

 

[Soul Searcher]

Logically one of those statements must be false

On second thought both statements could be true if the rock is 4.5 bya then it has certianly been in existance 6100 years and then some.

 

[AV1611VET]

Really. A quick google brought me to this. "Thomas Jay Oord argues that Christians should abandon the doctrine of creation ex nihilo."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ex_nihilo

Whether that's true or not, I don't know. Either way, I don't see many folk on this forum arguing about it...much I guess.

Well I'm sure they're out there somewhere; but I would say they constitute a very small minority within the Christian community.

 

[AV1611VET]

I specifically disagree with you.

In which point(s) --- I made five of them.

 

[AV1611VET]

On second thought both statements could be true if the rock is 4.5 bya then it has certianly been in existance 6100 years and then some.

I was wondering when someone was gonna catch that ---

But that's not what I meant, though.

 

[Braunwyn]

Well I'm sure they're out there somewhere; but I would say they constitute a very small minority within the Christian community.

I don't see why it matters since most of the arguements, in this forum at least, revolve around after the fact positions.

eta: oops, sorry. It does matter. I forgot why this dialog started in the first place.

 

[Braunwyn]

I was wondering when someone was gonna catch that ---

Someone did a few pages ago.

 

[Vene]

Once again, let me make something clear. I don't accept the charge that we Christians cannot get the Creation straight. I don't know of any Christian that disagrees with me that this universe was created ex nihilo. Whether one believes in Gap, OEC, YEC, Omphalos, Big Bang, or whatever, that all comes afterward. In fact, if there are any Christians that disagree with me, I invite them to let me know. I'm curious as to how they think matter got here.

Psst, the Big Bang is not out of nothing, it's the conversion of energy into matter. It's not magic.

 

[AV1611VET]

Psst, the Big Bang is not out of nothing...

Psst, where did the energy come from before it blew (expanded)? Remember, I want an answer from a Christian's perspective.

 

[Soul Searcher]

I was wondering when someone was gonna catch that ---

But that's not what I meant, though.

I knew that was not what you meant. I imagine that is why it took my a few minutes to catch it myself

 

[milkyway]

I was wondering when someone was gonna catch that ---

But that's not what I meant, though.

That's not what you meant? So you're gonna start interpreting your own question?? Novel at least!

 

[tcampen]

Supralogical ≠ no logic; and suprarational ≠ non-rational.

When this is the basis of your belief system about the entire universe and everything in it, there is no assertion that isn't equally plausible with the next.

However, experience shows us that the universe is not propped up by a foundation of "supralogic" and "suprarationale", for there really is logic and reason today. Things can make sense. Events can be predicted. The universe can be understood in rational terms.

Thus, your premise fails.

 

[pikatore]

Psst, where did the energy come from before it blew (expanded)? Remember, I want an answer from a Christian's perspective.

It came from God's eternal, unending, void of infinite nothingness, which isn't really nothingness, its everythingness, since it's everywhere.

But not there.

...... goddidit

 

[thaumaturgy]

When this is the basis of your belief system about the entire universe and everything in it, there is no assertion that isn't equally plausible with the next.

However, experience shows us that the universe is not propped up by a foundation of "supralogic" and "suprarationale", for there really is logic and reason today. Things can make sense. Events can be predicted. The universe can be understood in rational terms.

Thus, your premise fails.

But what if the universe has Embedded Logic in it? Huh? Yeah! It is a logic-infused chunker floating in the infinite sea of supra-logic!

Of course you could then ask how we know this but that would require another challenge I'm sure.