My questions

[LoveABull]

yeeeah, but moments before Jesus died, God left him when all the sin in the world came upon him. I'm not sure if there is anything in scripture that backs it up, but I was always taught God couldn't be around sin.

ya know... i was always taught that too... but obviously my thoughts on it have changed over time... and just for the sake of this discussion i ran a quick search... and i didn't really see anything that said God COULDN'T be in the presense of sin. i kinda take it more as sin is SO distasteful to Him, that He can't be near it in the same way i have trouble cleaning up after my dog after they "make a mistake" in the house. its not that i CAN'T... but BOY i really don't wanna! its GROSS!~

I do like the analogy, I do. But you missed the last bit he said.... "C'mon... lets go get you cleaned up. If you don't come, I'm going to burn you alive!"

(not trying to be ass hole here. Just making a point )

i do believe i have been officially teased! seriously, tho. its not like we didn't get fair warning. using my example again... if you CHOOSE to stay outside playing in the mud, you'll eventually die from starvation or exposure of some such... you'll never get a full stomach and a warm bed while you're covered in the dirt of the world...but all ya gotta do is go to the door and ask for that shower. you aren't forgotten or ignored.

I agree with you there. Fortunately I never became a Christian due to fire and brimstone preaching.

awsome! there's hope for you yet


and ya asked some questions about healing. i know that, to you, its just more stories... but i personally know people who have been healed... in various ways. and not just "oh yeah, i met them once"... i mean, these are friends of my family. One woman raised up from being paralyzed in a wheelchair, and allergic to so many different foods and medications she could barely eat anything... she's now totally normal and vibrant. one man healed of a badly torn ligament in his knee. he couldn't walk without a cane... then suddenly he could (and we're not talking about he lost weight or took physical therapy and that solved the problem... this man is well over 350 pounds still today... and he went to a prayer meeting with a knee brace and leaning heavily on a cane... and walked out straight and upright.) my own mother was healed of having grand mal seizures. she used to have them regularly... she was prayed for... and never had another.... ever. healings DO happen... unfortunatly they don't happen as often as they once did, nor as often as they should, for the way Christianity has changed over the time. its truely sad.

If the bible is to believed all the 76% of Americans should be able to heal and cast out demons in Jesus name.

Acts 19:13-16
13.Some Jews who went around driving out evil spirits tried to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who were demon-possessed. They would say, "In the name of Jesus, whom Paul preaches, I command you to come out." 14.Seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this. 15.(One day) the evil spirit answered them, "Jesus I know, and I know about Paul, but who are you?" 16.Then the man who had the evil spirit jumped on them and overpowered them all. He gave them such a beating that they ran out of the house naked and bleeding.

as you agreed earlier... just cuz someone SAYS they're Christian, don't mean it's so. ;-)

 

[OnceConvinced]

If God did not tell us of these truths...we would not know and we couldn't decide upon these realities? God informing us of truths...do not equate to a threat. Do we humans not tell our children that too much 'sugar' is bad for thier teeth...'prior to taking them to the dentist after they fail to listen to us! '

The 'dentist' exists...as do cavaties. If we fail to warn our children...then we fail to care about the 'pain' the child will face in the dentist's chair by consuming too much sugar.

Ah yes, but we did not create sugar, nor did we design teeth to be affected by them. God however created Hell and created us with the inclination to sin.

Actually...consider the animals. Not 'all' can formulate the same mental abilities as others. Animals are not placed in a fiery hell for failing to have faith. Indeed, the scriptures tell us 'some' things that can result in 'fiery hell'...I do not believe the 'lack of faith' is one (provided they do not 'know' the truth and choose to ignore it and exchange truth in for 'sin' and contempt). Consider Peter and Thomas...both lacked faith although believing.

Take the unbeliever...living life like an animal (survival of the fittest, evolution and all that jazz)...it doesn't mean they are '''against''' God if they do not blaspheme Him or love sin. I know very 'good' athiests.

I can not find in scripture where all unbelievers will go to hell. They most certainly might not receive 'eternal' life...but I can not see in scripture where a baby that never held the chance to believe or not to believe...is hell bound. A God of comfort might allow this baby to reunite with their parents...without the restriction you 'yourself' have placed upon God...don't you think?

Wonderful reply. I liked your point about the animals.

I agree, I could never believe that God would want to throw babies into hell and I always found it hard to believe that God will throw people who had never heard his word into hell. I also figured that maybe they just wouldn't make it to heaven.

It is okay if you provide an example for us.

Well some of the OT scriptures are the worst. Like the fact that illegitamate children (It won't let me post the B word) and desexed males will not go to heaven. There are a lot of examples of people who for no fault of their own have been condemned due to the Law of Moses.

In the NT, it's scriptures there that say things like, the only way to God is through Jesus Christ. And of course there are the huge lists of people that will not enter the kingdom of God. I would like to provide some references, but I'm flat out of time now. But hopefully you will be aware of the NT scriptures I am talking about.

Thanks for listening and enduring my rather long or indepth responses--it is because of your noted intelligence that I offer this.

You're too kind. I appreciate your replies.

 

[OnceConvinced]

ya know... i was always taught that too... but obviously my thoughts on it have changed over time... and just for the sake of this discussion i ran a quick search... and i didn't really see anything that said God COULDN'T be in the presense of sin. i kinda take it more as sin is SO distasteful to Him, that He can't be near it in the same way i have trouble cleaning up after my dog after they "make a mistake" in the house. its not that i CAN'T... but BOY i really don't wanna! its GROSS!~

Yeah, I can accept that might have been the case with God.

i do believe i have been officially teased! seriously, tho. its not like we didn't get fair warning. using my example again... if you CHOOSE to stay outside playing in the mud, you'll eventually die from starvation or exposure of some such... you'll never get a full stomach and a warm bed while you're covered in the dirt of the world...but all ya gotta do is go to the door and ask for that shower. you aren't forgotten or ignored.

For some of us we have recieved many warnings. For others, not so many warnings. But the thing is God created the conditions in the scenario. He created that mud. It was also through the creation of this system that he created the consequences for our actions. So when he let us go out and play in the mud in the first place, he was allowing us to go into that very dangerous situation, so must have some accountability for what happened to us, just like a parent would if they let their kids wander into a dangerous situation..

 

[EmbracingHim]

Convinced....

Ah yes, but we did not create sugar, nor did we design teeth to be affected by them. God however created Hell and created us with the inclination to sin.

Actually 'satan' temps us rather than humans holdng any natural inclination -- going back to humans first existence in scripture (niavity is another matter --but being niave was only natural in the garden of Eden since there was nothing or nobody to fear until satan chose to betray and oppose God.

We were nonetheless given the opportunity (as satan was) to be disobedient to God (this goes back to free will and '''love''' versus robot people...if God only wanted to be praised, served, obeyed, etc...then he would have created robot people; RTD3's in consideration of the Trinity...okay silly humor!! lol!!).).

Not to disagree with you on sugar either...but we produce and harvast this as well as refine it. Had we not refined this to be placed in just about every dish known to man...there would probably be less cavaties in the world today!! (not to mention diabetes. **sigh)...

Well some of the OT scriptures are the worst. Like the fact that illegitamate children (It won't let me post the B word) and desexed males will not go to heaven. There are a lot of examples of people who for no fault of their own have been condemned due to the Law of Moses.

Hmmm...I'd have to see the scriptures you are referring to but after the 10 commandments...Mosaic law was created by man. And enmuets (spelling for the desexed people...is there an h in there somewhere??? lol), were not they chosen to serve others and special?

In the NT, it's scriptures there that say things like, the only way to God is through Jesus Christ. And of course there are the huge lists of people that will not enter the kingdom of God. I would like to provide some references, but I'm flat out of time now. But hopefully you will be aware of the NT scriptures I am talking about.

The scripture you reference about salvation through Christ only is due to Christ being the judge of all in heaven and on earth. As stated before mercy is limitless and the baby who did not live long enough to know Christ is within the jurisdiction of Christ's 'mercy' and 'love' as well as judgement...and we know that 'mercy' triumps judgement. (I read that somewhere anyway)

We would not be today if it was not for God's love and mercy.

Have you asked why God didn't just kill Adam and Eve and satan and create new humans who could not be influenced by satan (since he wouldn't be)?

It's a good question to ask oneself. (perhaps one even warranting a new thread).

you're too kind.I apprecriate your replies

I apprecriate that you apprecriate my replies and I too apprecriate you!!

 

[Key]

Yeah, I can accept that might have been the case with God.




For some of us we have recieved many warnings. For others, not so many warnings. But the thing is God created the conditions in the scenario. He created that mud. It was also through the creation of this system that he created the consequences for our actions. So when he let us go out and play in the mud in the first place, he was allowing us to go into that very dangerous situation, so must have some accountability for what happened to us, just like a parent would if they let their kids wander into a dangerous situation..

For some of us we have recieved many warnings. For others, not so many warnings. But the thing is God created the conditions in the scenario. He created that mud. It was also through the creation of this system that he created the consequences for our actions. So when he let us go out and play in the mud in the first place, he was allowing us to go into that very dangerous situation, so must have some accountability for what happened to us, just like a parent would if they let their kids wander into a dangerous situation..

We play in the mud because it is fun, And yes God set the rules, like a parent, or a creator, it is our responsiblity to abide by those rules as the 'Child" or Creation.

How many children on a daily basis complain about the "Parents Rules", simply because they do not like them, does not mean the rules are not fair and just.

"You will need to clean yourself off to enter my house", sounds simple enough, "Or you can stay out in the mud", Humm choices, choices. If you refuse to get cleaned off, this is some how the parents fault, even whey they are waiting for you, ready with the clean cloths and towel.

I am like now totally confused.

Should the parent run out, beat you over the head, and drag you into the shower kicking and screaming, throw you into the shower, and scrub you clean while you flail around like a fish out of water, then tie you down as they dry you off and then force you into nice clean garments so they can force you to come to dinner because it is what they want you to do. I guess if the child was 3, that would be an option, if the child was 16 that would be a joke.

Wow, Talk about removing your free will. Sure God COULD do that, but maybe, Just maybe, God believes that we are mature enough to make this choice on our own.

Maybe what you are saying is that you do not believe yourself able to make this choice, that you are on some level incompentent? I might be really getting confused here now. That happens when there is a lot of discussion going on.

God Bless


Key

 

[Key]

It is pretty impressive. But there are also millions of believers in the world involved in other religions, so that makes those deities pretty impressive too.

Not really when you look at them, Most (if not all) of them have now been influenced by the Teachings of Jesus to some extent. I will agree that they have not really influenced by Christians, But by Jesus. In the words of Gandhi “I like your Christ, but you Christians are so unlike your Christ” (Paraphrased)

But, I have always had a great respect for Other Religions, as long as they seemed to instill a betterment of the believers life.

Fair comments you have made. But I wonder how many of these people believe because the alternative - that there is no God and that the earth evolved is just too ridiculous to even contemplate.

Occam’s Razor at it finest.

However, using terms like “Most of the people I know” would be fully acceptable.

There are still many diseases and afflictions that require healing, that technology and medicines can't fix. If the bible is to believed all the 76% of Americans should be able to heal and cast out demons in Jesus name. I don't think you could send them all over seas.

Umm I am confused. First you say that not all of the 76% would have absolute faith, and then you say they should cast out daemons?

It’s a matter of Faith, “Oh ye of little faith”

There is a whole Faith Issue here, as well as commitment.
For example Emily Rose.

Very rarely, I'm not much of a handiman. I have built computer databases if that helps. lol. But I dare say you have a point to make. Perhaps it will be that if you build something you will want to use it? But then once you get bored with it, it probably just gets left in a shed somewhere.

Humm, I not sure I would get “Bored” with my house, but, I would guess it is about the scale you are talking about, you might be thinking of a toy maker.

I will have to get back to you on this, so that I can explain this fully, the words are not coming well to me.

God Bless

Key

 

[OnceConvinced]

Convinced....
Actually 'satan' temps us rather than humans holdng any natural inclination

What about where the bible talks about the Flesh. Particulary Paul's teachings. eg Romans. He talks about a natural propensity to sin. I guess we could also get into the debate of Original Sin and all that too. But I always saw the term "The flesh" as being a natural thing.

Mosaic law was created by man.

You don't think God had a hand in it?

I would agree that the Mosaic Law was created by man, and is the major reason why Jesus disaproved of it. In fact it's a great reason to reject all those crazy laws. But still I have to wonder, if the bible is the infallable and inerrant word of God, why would those laws be in there if God didn't approve of them?

And enmuets (spelling for the desexed people...is there an h in there somewhere??? lol), were not they chosen to serve others and special?

Actually, my apologies. The example of the Bstard and the desexed I misquoted. It only says they can't go to church.

Deut: 23:1 He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the lord.
2 A ******* shall not enter into the congregation of the lord; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the lord.

The scripture you reference about salvation through Christ only is due to Christ being the judge of all in heaven and on earth.

Perhaps. But what about other verses like...

John 3:18: He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.

Mark 16:16: Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned

Have you asked why God didn't just kill Adam and Eve and satan and create new humans who could not be influenced by satan (since he wouldn't be)?

I've seen a lot of debates about why God didn't just kill Satan. As for why he didn't kill Adam and Eve and start afresh, I never thought about that one. I would think that if he insisted on giving humans a free will, he would see no point in starting again. After all he is omnipotent, so would know that bar removing free will, he was always going to create rebelious beings. Humans were always going to mess things up.

 

[SecretOfFatima]

Hi,

Looks like you already have answers to many of your questions...

Neverless... just Like many other souls you are also in a journey.

Keep searching for the truth and you will find it.

Instead of answering your questions, let me give you a few articles which may help you in your journey (and hopefully they will help you solve the puzzle that you are trying to build)

http://www.priestsforlife.org/articles/devilsmistake.htm

http://www.vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html

http://www.ourcatholicfaith.org/thechurch.html


If you like the articles popup sometime by the OBOB for more interest views



May the LORD bless you and keep you

 

[OnceConvinced]

Key, let's play with the Parent/Child analogy a little more. The parent decides to put a snake pit in the child's play yard, full of poisonous snakes. The parent knows without the doubt the child is going to play in it even thought that child is smart. He warns the child about it, hoping the child will take heed of his advice, but knowing full well he won't. Anyway, the parent knows that later he can simply blame the child for it's own foolishness and the kid will just have to accept the consequences.

The child sees it and goes and plays in it anyway. It gets bitten by a snake and is rushed to hospital. Everyone agrees that the child was stupid for playing in it, but who gets held accountable? The parent - For allowing their kid to put themselves in such danger. That parent knew the child had a rebellious nature and would go and play in it. In fact this particular parent put it there knowing full well the child would play in it. Some people would even say that parent deliberately set that child up to get bitten. You better believe that parent has to hold a certain amount of responsibility for what happened.

Key, you can sugar coat it all you like, but it all comes back to how the parent is trying to enforce the rules. The parent is threatening death if you don't obey them - scare tactics. You can't over look that. Sure we may be doing something dangerous, we may be going against our parent's wishes, we may be rebelling, but the parent is threatening death if we don't conform.

What we really have to admit here is that for those that accept him he is merciful and loving, but to those who reject him, he is brutal and unforgiving. Sometimes he is flexible and other times he is a dictator who demands conformity. Perhaps we have to accept this?

 

[OnceConvinced]

Umm I am confused. First you say that not all of the 76% would have absolute faith, and then you say they should cast out daemons?

Sorry about the misunderstanding. I was coming from the point of view that IF all 76% were true believers they could.

I will have to get back to you on this, so that I can explain this fully, the words are not coming well to me.

No worries. You've been doing well so far. Your a good debater and I respect your opinions.

 

[Key]

Key, let's play with the Parent/Child analogy a little more. The parent decides to put a snake pit in the child's play yard, full of poisonous snakes. The parent knows without the doubt the child is going to play in it even thought that child is smart. He warns the child about it, hoping the child will take heed of his advice, but knowing full well he won't. Anyway, the parent knows that later he can simply blame the child for it's own foolishness and the kid will just have to accept the consequences.

The child sees it and goes and plays in it anyway. It gets bitten by a snake and is rushed to hospital. Everyone agrees that the child was stupid for playing in it, but who gets held accountable? The parent - For allowing their kid to put themselves in such danger. That parent knew the child had a rebellious nature and would go and play in it. In fact this particular parent put it there knowing full well the child would play in it. Some people would even say that parent deliberately set that child up to get bitten. You better believe that parent has to hold a certain amount of responsibility for what happened.

If I tell my child that sex is something that I have chosen to forbid to them untill they are married. This is my rule as a parent.

Ok. Sex feels Good, Sex is not only exciting, it is also very pleasing and I would go so far as to say it is even good for you, under the right conditions.

My Child goes out and has Sex. As luck would have it, she gets pregnant.

Now I'll even go so far as to say "I made Sex feel good, I even made Sex itself"

I gave my child a Law, a rule, a command that I forbid this.

She comes home, and expects me to now "Deal with it", I tell her, You have done as I commanded you NOT to do, YOU deal with is, it is no longer my problem.

She breaks down and begs me, asking me to forgive her her mistake, and take her back. I do.

My other daugher, does the same thing, all up untill the end. When I tell her it is not my problem she counters.

"You took back your other daughter, and it's yoru fault, if had not made sex feel so good I would not have done it"

I counter, and say "She realized her mistake, and sought my forgivness, and I gave it to her, and besides, it matters not how Good the sex feels, I told you not to do it"

Storming off, she calles me an unfair repressing (Colorful Profanities), to face the world alone, and with child, to a life of pain and heartship, and problems (A Hell by many peoples standards)

Was it my fault she chose to have sex? Not the slightest, I told her, that I forbid it, that should have been enough. Even if it was fun and enjoyable, even if I invented Sex itself, I still told her it was wrong.

When the one that asked that I forgive her, I did, this some how demands that I also forgive the one that condemned me for my judgment, and blamed me for her choice. No in any means, I did as I did, I kept my stance, I did not change.

Using your child example with the snake pit, that works if the child is 3, not if your "Child" is 30.

But both of them might play with the snake pit, even if told not to. If the Child is 3, I am to blame (Which if you read the story of David, he explains that all Young Children that do not know any better go to God) so as such, with the three year old, I stop the poison and tell them to go into the house. With the adult, I look at them and say "I told you not to play with the snakes.... dummy"

If put up a "Beware of Dog" sign and you jump the fence, it's my fault the dog tore you a new one? That makes not sence even to the eyes of Human Law and Morals.

Key, you can sugar coat it all you like, but it all comes back to how the parent is trying to enforce the rules. The parent is threatening death if you don't obey them - scare tactics. You can't over look that. Sure we may be doing something dangerous, we may be going against our parent's wishes, we may be rebelling, but the parent is threatening death if we don't conform.

I do not view it this way, there is a mjor flaw with this, but I lack the words to expalin it well.

God asks that we Accept him, if we don't, then we Win what we wanted, and he disowns us.

It's kind of fair when you look at it. You get what you want. Not the way you wanted, I'll give you that, but still, you get what you wanted. After all, Satan wanted to be in Charge, and God gave him what he wanted, maybe not to way he wanted it, but still.

Ok fire = bad. I get this, like I said, I do not ponder what Hell will be like, there is too much written as it is. I just know it is not gonna be fun.

Then again, Life is not really that much fun at times when you think about it.

What we really have to admit here is that for those that accept him he is merciful and loving, but to those who reject him, he is brutal and unforgiving. Sometimes he is flexible and other times he is a dictator who demands conformity. Perhaps we have to accept this?

God is What God Is.

I can not fathom calling God unforgiving, as he makes it clear that if you ask for Salvation, it will be granted. God makes it clear that he will not deny anyone his Forgivness, if they seek it. If they do not seek it, what do you want God to do?

Disbelief is not Sin, It won't send you to Hell in and of itself.

It's all those other dirty rotten things you have done, that have covered you with the fith of Sin, and make you unacceptable to the Eyes of God. That is where the problem is.

I hope I have given you answeres to your Questions and Concerns. And myabe given you insight to think over.

God Bless

Key

 

[LoveABull]

just a real quick 2 cents i feel like i have to throw in here... we've been playing with the analogy of children alot here. its been put forth in the Bible that if a child is younger than the "age of accountability"... they go to God when they die. altho all mankind since Adam and Eve have had the "knowledge of good and evil"... when you are too young to actually KNOW what that means... its not sin. the 3 year old child playing too near a snake pit is too young to understand that the snakes are dangerous. then YES... it is the fault of the person responsible.... HOWEVER... we now have the knowledge of good and evil. we don't HAVE the innocence of a child. we KNOW the snakes are dangerous. we have been given fair warning. we were given an "instruction book". God is not unforgiving. He is willing to forgive, but you have to ASK for it. and He has laid out very specific concequenses if we don't ask.

as Key said, if you jump the fence that says "Beware of dog", who's fault is it when you get bitten?

 

[OnceConvinced]

If I tell my child that sex is something that I have chosen to forbid to them untill they are married. This is my rule as a parent.

Ok. Sex feels Good, Sex is not only exciting, it is also very pleasing and I would go so far as to say it is even good for you, under the right conditions.

My Child goes out and has Sex. As luck would have it, she gets pregnant.

The sex example to me is a little like putting a delicious slice of cake next to a kid's bed and telling them they can't eat it. But each day putting a fresh piece there. Now the kid loves chocolate cake. He was born with the deep desire to eat chocolate cake. Finally the kid can handle it no longer and gives into temptation and eats it. Then the parent comes and gives the kid's hand a good hard slap. Dah! What did the parent expect?

God put these temptations in front of us, and then punishes us when we give in.

Using your child example with the snake pit, that works if the child is 3, not if your "Child" is 30.

just a real quick 2 cents i feel like i have to throw in here... we've been playing with the analogy of children alot here. its been put forth in the Bible that if a child is younger than the "age of accountability"... they go to God when they die. altho all mankind since Adam and Eve have had the "knowledge of good and evil"... when you are too young to actually KNOW what that means... its not sin. the 3 year old child playing too near a snake pit is too young to understand that the snakes are dangerous. then YES... it is the fault of the person responsible.... HOWEVER... we now have the knowledge of good and evil. we don't HAVE the innocence of a child. we KNOW the snakes are dangerous. we have been given fair warning. we were given an "instruction book". God is not unforgiving. He is willing to forgive, but you have to ASK for it. and He has laid out very specific concequenses if we don't ask.

Well we are God's children. And his ways are so much higher than our ways. He can't expect us to think like him. So the analogy is still a pretty good one.

But ok, let's say the child is 30 years old. Well for one thing it would no longer be up to the parent to dictate rules to their child. The child is an adult and can make their own rules now.

But ok, it's God, not a parent. God is God and is something special. But even if we do go and decide to play with snakes... Let's say I'm that great guy Steve Irwin (RIP) and decide to handle these snakes and get bit. People will say, I was a complete idiot for doing it, but no one who claims to love me is going to want to have me killed for that.

If put up a "Beware of Dog" sign and you jump the fence, it's my fault the dog tore you a new one? That makes not sence even to the eyes of Human Law and Morals.

as Key said, if you jump the fence that says "Beware of dog", who's fault is it when you get bitten?

If you knew that in my rebelious nature that I was going to do it anyway, then it could be seen as you trying to set me up to take a fall. It's like you would be setting a trap for me, knowing I'd walk right into it. Don't they call that in law "Entrapment"? You knew without a doubt I would go ahead and jump right over that fence.

God is What God Is.

This I can accept. It's just the justifying of what he does that sort of bugs me. It was one of the things I got fed up doing as a Christian. Trying to justify why God does (or doesn't do) the things he does.

 

[Key]

The sex example to me is a little like putting a delicious slice of cake next to a kid's bed and telling them they can't eat it. But each day putting a fresh piece there. Now the kid loves chocolate cake. He was born with the deep desire to eat chocolate cake. Finally the kid can handle it no longer and gives into temptation and eats it. Then the parent comes and gives the kid's hand a good hard slap. Dah! What did the parent expect?

No, this is incorrect.
You have failed to give providence for Forgivness, which is the major attribute of God. For all that Ask shall be Forgiven.

Secondly, you have failed to address that there is an alternative to the cake, which is somethng God also provides. Maybe like Brussel Sprouts, or some such.

God put these temptations in front of us, and then punishes us when we give in.

I am confused as to how you see this as such. This makes no sence.

We sin because it is easier at the moment to sin then it is to follow Gods Laws.

It is easier to lie to get out of trouble then it is to tell the truth and face the punishment.

Just as it is easy to feel like you must "Beat the Dinklebergs", as opposed to just taking a moment to apricate that they have something better then yours, and be happy for them.

Well we are God's children. And his ways are so much higher than our ways. He can't expect us to think like him. So the analogy is still a pretty good one.

We are Gods Children in a way, yes, But we are capiable of reason and as such we are accountable for our actions. We are not "Children" we are a child of God.

But ok, let's say the child is 30 years old. Well for one thing it would no longer be up to the parent to dictate rules to their child. The child is an adult and can make their own rules now.

Not nessarly, this is all part of culture issues, where the "head" of the house is the Seinor, not simply an "Adult", the eldest parent makes the rules, or the owner of the house makes the rules, many times, they are one and the same person, not always.

So if a Parent(We will say is 65 for this example), told their child (Who is 30), not to play with the snakes, the Child would be expected to know better.

"I told you not to play with the snakes.... dummy"

IE: If at 30 you lived in your parents home (Very Commonin some cultures, who take pride in multi-generation Families) you abide by your parents laws still, you are not allowed to just "Make up your own rules", or even change the rules of the house, that is for the eldest parent.

Only when you move out, and are in your own home, and have your own family, and you are the parent, do you get to make the rules, and even then, maybe not, because the Parents (The two people) make the rules in a joint like fashon (American Culture). If you were a single parent, then yes, you get to make the rules.

But ok, it's God, not a parent. God is God and is something special. But even if we do go and decide to play with snakes... Let's say I'm that great guy Steve Irwin (RIP) and decide to handle these snakes and get bit. People will say, I was a complete idiot for doing it, but no one who claims to love me is going to want to have me killed for that.

Thebad form of Dragging Steve Irwin into this debate aside.

Lets say the snake did not kill you outright, no one wants you die from it.

Now, if you refuse the anti-venom, then your just stupid and people will say, "Well you know, he brought that on himself"

If you play with Snakes that will kill you outright, well, then people will say (Even those who love you) "He knew the risks, he placed his life in his own hands, I am sorry this happned, but, that was the risks he decided to take"

Those that told you not to play with snakes will all say "I told him not play with those snakes, I tried to warn him, Horrable loss, I wish he had listned to me, he might still be alive today"

No one is going to say "Hey you, the Guy that told him not play with snakes, this is all your fault!"

or going to say "This is all the snakes fault! If it had not bit him (Even after he went and played with it) this would never have happned" Well, I take the that back. some people would say this, but, that is because many humans are misguided, and need to "Blame something besides themselves" after all, if a wolf kills a human, it's the wolfs fault, if a human kills a wolf, the wolf had it comming. Just human mentality I guess, the Holds true for Human mentality towards God, it's all Gods fault, we Humans can't be to blame, or held accountable for our own actions.

But that might be more a current cultural things, but I would bet not.

If you knew that in my rebelious nature that I was going to do it anyway, then it could be seen as you trying to set me up to take a fall. It's like you would be setting a trap for me, knowing I'd walk right into it. Don't they call that in law "Entrapment"? You knew without a doubt I would go ahead and jump right over that fence.

I put a sign up, if you in your nature, chose to ignore it, I am not responsible, even if I knew you would do it. I put a cleam warning up, that was simple to understand, I did all I could.

This I can accept. It's just the justifying of what he does that sort of bugs me. It was one of the things I got fed up doing as a Christian. Trying to justify why God does (or doesn't do) the things he does.

I respect that I can not Grasp the Whole of God, I can not fit into my mind all the life forms on this plant and how they work together, and I would have the Brass to expect to comperhend fully their designer and maker.

I wonder if you could tell me, how people could think like this, that they can fully Grasp, the maker of what they can not fully grasp.

I hope however I have answered your other questions and concerns regarding this issue.

if you have any other points of intrest, or if you feel that I have been inadequate, I welcome your concerns and points of intrest.

God Bless

Key

 

[seajoy]

The sex example to me is a little like putting a delicious slice of cake next to a kid's bed and telling them they can't eat it. But each day putting a fresh piece there. Now the kid loves chocolate cake. He was born with the deep desire to eat chocolate cake. Finally the kid can handle it no longer and gives into temptation and eats it. Then the parent comes and gives the kid's hand a good hard slap. Dah! What did the parent expect?

God doesn't put the 'cake' in bed with you. You put yourself in bed with the 'cake.'

1 Corinthians 10:13 No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.

seajoy

 

[EmbracingHim]

First I must correct whomever said this (sorry):

God is What God Is.

Actually God is 'Who' God 'is...being 'I am.' (sorry -- not intending to be harsh). The context is correct in considering He is -- while we ourselves were created. Although being built in His image we too create...all we create is perishable, while what God creates is eternal.

What about where the bible talks about the Flesh. Particulary Paul's teachings. eg Romans. He talks about a natural propensity to sin. I guess we could also get into the debate of Original Sin and all that too. But I always saw the term "The flesh" as being a natural thing.

Paul states his 'body' does what his 'mind' doesn't want it to do. This speaks of the 'difficulty' we have as humans who have 'obtained knowledge' beyond our 'perfect' capability and 'purpose' as humans (back in that garden and partaking in the tree of knowledge).

This does not necessarily speak of a propensity toward 'sin' -- but the difficulties in the flesh (for example lusts for 'things,' ect. that feel good to the body or bring the 'flesh' comfort...but not the Spirit. I.e. like devouring a gallon of ice cream in two day --not really good for you...but it sure tastes good to the flesh...yet the 'mind' knows better.

In Proverbs we read that the root of righteousness shall not be removed from man...I often consider infants and how they lack so much knowledge and likewise thier actions that follow are 'good.' The scriptures tell us that we too much become like a child in the truth (thereby accepting our human logic to be inferior and damaged by our fleshly desires).

You don't think God had a hand in it? (the Mosaic law)

In some (and definately the 10 commandments)...but God gave man free will and man went a bit over board!! (okay more than a bit )

I would agree that the Mosaic Law was created by man, and is the major reason why Jesus disaproved of it. In fact it's a great reason to reject all those crazy laws. But still I have to wonder, if the bible is the infallable and inerrant word of God, why would those laws be in there if God didn't approve of them?

Again...God 'wants' us to be free. He gave man dominion over all....the scriptures state all things are allowed; but not all things are beneficial.

Actually, my apologies. The example of the Bstard and the desexed I misquoted. It only says they can't go to church.

No probs.

What about other verses like...

John 3:18: He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.

Mark 16:16: Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned

These scriptures are true indeed...one condemns oneself if they do not acknowledge their creator who can 'help' them. How sad it is when one walks without instructions. I do not see where one is 'damned to hell' in these verses though -- just condemning oneself by choice and death in the case of rejecting. (see the pattern of decision after decision )...leading to the question I asked.

I've seen a lot of debates about why God didn't just kill Satan. As for why he didn't kill Adam and Eve and start afresh, I never thought about that one. I would think that if he insisted on giving humans a free will, he would see no point in starting again. After all he is omnipotent, so would know that bar removing free will, he was always going to create rebelious beings. Humans were always going to mess things up.

I'm a bit disappointed that I created a thread on this and it was moved to the Christian helping Christians forum. **sigh.

A simple answer that is seen in much of life is that God 'wants' to give us the opportunity to deny and defy Him. It was always there even without satan's temptation. One should note though -- that it 'took' satan's temptation for this disobedience and thusly 'sin' to enter the world. I thought this question important because it 'explores' the 'depths' of God's love for us -- not just His authority over us (authority God pushes upon no one). I give praise that we have a God who does not enslave us, but desires us to be free.

 

[Key]

First I must correct whomever said this (sorry):

Actually God is 'Who' God 'is...being 'I am.' (sorry -- not intending to be harsh). The context is correct in considering He is -- while we ourselves were created. Although being built in His image we too create...all we create is perishable, while what God creates is eternal.

God is what God is, not in the idea of male or female, but in the idea that "That which is God" concept. The Whole of God is the issue, not some part or a single attribute is delt with in the case.

As in, "We are what we are" or "You are what you are"

I wanted to involve a bit more then just idenity issues.

I hope you understand.

But I do take your post to heart and your points into consideration, thank you for your points.

God Bless

Key

 

[EmbracingHim]

Thank you for your kindness, Keys. My thought was that God is a being (likewise a Whom) and not an it. He is a He as well...nonetheless, your thought well taken. Again, I mean no offense (it's a loving God thing...not a desire to correct you thing).

Once Convinced...

Back on the 'cake' issue. If I might ask you a couple of questions?

Would you prefer that God did not create things that were enjoyable?

If God removed all temptation from one's soul, then wouldn't 'free will' also be removed?

If free will were removed...what would be the basis of choices in faith and to love?

Thanks for considering these questions.

 

[Key]

Thank you for your kindness, Keys. My thought was that God is a being (likewise a Whom) and not an it. He is a He as well...nonetheless, your thought well taken. Again, I mean no offense (it's a loving God thing...not a desire to correct you thing).

I understand, and I appricate your points. True God is a Being, and God is Who God is. I fully grasp and respect what you are saying, I was I guess just taking a diffrent approach is all.

God Bless

Key

 

[OnceConvinced]

No, this is incorrect.
You have failed to give providence for Forgivness, which is the major attribute of God. For all that Ask shall be Forgiven.

For those who ask for forgiveness that is fine. But what about those that don't? They get none. They suffer the consequences.

Secondly, you have failed to address that there is an alternative to the cake, which is somethng God also provides. Maybe like Brussel Sprouts, or some such.

But the cake is just way too tempting. And God new it will be. Remember he already knew before I was born I was going to eat the cake anyway.

I am confused as to how you see this as such. This makes no sence.

I can't see how you can see it any other way. It is exactly what happens. We sin because that's our nature, not because it is easier.

Lets say the snake did not kill you outright, no one wants you die from it.

Now, if you refuse the anti-venom, then your just stupid and people will say, "Well you know, he brought that on himself"

If you play with Snakes that will kill you outright, well, then people will say (Even those who love you) "He knew the risks, he placed his life in his own hands, I am sorry this happned, but, that was the risks he decided to take"

Those that told you not to play with snakes will all say "I told him not play with those snakes, I tried to warn him, Horrable loss, I wish he had listned to me, he might still be alive today"

No one is going to say "Hey you, the Guy that told him not play with snakes, this is all your fault!"

or going to say "This is all the snakes fault! If it had not bit him (Even after he went and played with it) this would never have happned" Well, I take the that back. some people would say this, but, that is because many humans are misguided, and need to "Blame something besides themselves" after all, if a wolf kills a human, it's the wolfs fault, if a human kills a wolf, the wolf had it comming. Just human mentality I guess, the Holds true for Human mentality towards God, it's all Gods fault, we Humans can't be to blame, or held accountable for our own actions.

But all this is irrelevant.God put the snake pit there in the first place! He knew full well that person would play in it. He knew it before that person was even born. He knew that no matter what warnings he made that person would do it. This is the crux of the matter here and one of the main points I am trying to make. If he gives a warning, it is either a very weak warning - knowing it wouldn't have the desired effect or he simply did it so that he could say "I told you so" later. "I warned you about that, you didn't listen, you didn't ask for forgiveness, there fore you shall go to hell for it".

I wonder if you could tell me, how people could think like this, that they can fully Grasp, the maker of what they can not fully grasp.

I can't fully grasp God either, but if we think things through logically, we can see major flaws in the way God supposedly works.

I can't really see how we can call God just and ominpotent at the same time. It clashes. It all comes back to that argument that he knows all before it happens. He allows people to be born knowing full well they will reject him and then get sent to hell. If God did not know all that would happen, then yes it would be totally reasonable for God to warn us and then to punish us when we rejected him. I would agree with everything you say. But the bible says God is omiopent, he does know all, so there for any temptations he allows to come across our path he knew we would give into , so there for it is entrapment. Warnings are arbitrary.

Anyway, I have the feeling now that we may be starting to frustrate each other. Perhaps it might be best if we accept a stalemate here. I don't think either of us will convince each other on this one.