My Problem with the Invisible Church

[CaliforniaJosiah]

1. A picture of the Earth should suffice.

Ah, so you view is the planet Earth IS Christianity and the church that is one, holy, catholic, communion of saints. Okay....

2. What I think is important with this, is that we belong to a church founded by an Apostle. After all it is Paul that said to do this in his writings.

None currently exists. The closest you can get is a congregation in Antioch - there is one there that seems to be able to trace itself to an Apostle (although I don't remember which) - although it's entirely unsubstantiated. And why would a congregation with a history going back to one of the Apostles make it THE one, holy, catholic, communion of saints? Why would it make that legal entity the whole of Christianity, the whole of the community of all believers - past and present? What about the Pope - he isn't that congregation.






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[JacktheCatholic]

Do you think its impossible to profess the Lord Jesus without being part of the Catholic Church?

Not only do I believe that but the RCC has a document that states as much (Lumen Gentium).

However, in deeper theological speak we will see at times that one must be part of the Catholic Church and in this regards it is speaking of the invisible church where a Roman Catholic sees all Christians as part of the Body of Christ regardless of their personal affiliation because the RCC see itself as the Body of Christ. This is of course not the typical way of discussing matters except with other theologians that take the RC pov in their readings and not meant as their personal pov. In other words... you need not agree that you are Catholic if you are part of the Body of Christ in order for this theological view to make sense. It is logical regardless.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Yes this professing is being made by physical people, but are you saying in order for this profession of Christ to be TRULY visible, then we must be part of a Church that is supposedly "visible" ? .

Must? Not necessarily. Again, Lumen Gentium and the CCC elaborates on this.

An example is the thief on Jesus' right when he is crucified. This thief is not baptized and is not part of any group yet Jesus says this thief will be in Paradise (Heaven). Only Jesus (God) knows the hearts of men and who is in the Book of Life.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

I'm still on the fence on this one, pray for me.

Prayer sent

God bless.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Ah, so you view is the planet Earth IS Christianity and the church that is one, holy, catholic, communion of saints. Okay....
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You want a picture. If you asked for a picture of the Catholic Church it would have to include all of the souls still on earth before the first death and all the Saints in Heaven and in Purgatory. A picture of the Church militant alone would be impossible unless I could take a picture of the Earth. There are over a Billion Catholics world wide. Even if wanted the structures they are way too numerous and globally positioned. So, a picture of the Earth would have all those souls and buildings that are the visible church (except Heaven/Purgatory of course).

It is an answer to an impossible question, "show me a picture of this Church."

 

[JacktheCatholic]

None currently exists. The closest you can get is a congregation in Antioch - there is one there that seems to be able to trace itself to an Apostle (although I don't remember which) - although it's entirely unsubstantiated. And why would a congregation with a history going back to one of the Apostles make it THE one, holy, catholic, communion of saints? Why would it make that legal entity the whole of Christianity, the whole of the community of all believers - past and present? What about the Pope - he isn't that congregation.






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Claiming that none exist is an opinion and not based solely on facts. If we used facts then we would have to conclude that the EOC and the OOC and the RCC are all churches that were established by the Apostles because facts show this to be true.

For example the Vatican sits on the spot where Peter and Paul have been layed to rest and in the area where they established the church of Rome. It is a church founded by the Apostles Peter and Paul and because I believe the Paraclete protects the teachings that these Apostles gave I believe the RCC has the teachings that Peter and Paul gave both orally and written.

 

[sunlover1]

As to which church group to belong and learn from I think scriptures tell us to learn from Apostolic churches, those churches established by the Apostles.

Yes this professing is being made by physical people, but are you saying in order for this profession of Christ to be TRULY visible, then we must be part of a Church that is supposedly "visible" ?

My church IS visible. I see it when I pull into the drive.
I see it when one of the members stops over to my house

I would say protestant Churches are all visible in the same ways as the Catholic Church minus only a few things, and those things are only "minus" do to our belief that we don't need it (pope for example)

Certainly.
And denominationalism imo, is divisive.
11 For it has been declared to me of you, my brothers, by them which are of the house of Chloe,
that there are contentions among you.
12 Now this I say, that every one of you said, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
(Or was Luther...Lutheran, or was Peter...RCC, or was Wesley...Wesleyan?)

I'm still on the fence on this one, pray for me.

I pray that God will lead you to just the place He has prepared for you,
and that ride will be nothing less than amazing!

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Claiming that none exist is an opinion and not based solely on facts.

Your point that the planet Earth IS the church is an opinion I also think is baseless (and quite unique to you).

If we used facts then we would have to conclude that the EOC and the OOC and the RCC are all churches that were established by the Apostles

ENTIRELY baseless and moot to the issue. The RC and EO denominations are not "visible" any more than the LDS or WELS denominations are visible. Besides, you already declared that this planet is the church (I'm curious how this planet has faith in Christ - but frankly, I just find your view not worth discussing).


If you want to change your view and say that the RC and EO denominations are Christianity are visible, then take a picture if it and post it.

For example the Vatican sits on the spot where Peter and Paul have been layed to rest and in the area where they established the church of Rome. It is a church founded by the Apostles Peter and Paul and because I believe the Paraclete protects the teachings that these Apostles gave I believe the RCC has the teachings that Peter and Paul gave both orally and written.

Baseless and entirely, completely MOOT to anything remotely related to this thread. Yes, the vatican is visible, but it is not Christianity. There's ZERO evidence that Peter or Paul founded the congregation in Rome (and check your sources, that's not even a Catholic teaching!). And you aren't the Vatican, so are you not Christian? How does that building have faith Christ? When did God promise ANYTHING to that building (which wasn't even begun until the late 15th century)? But, let's stop this diversion and get back to the issue.





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[Rdr Iakovos]

(yours just seems to be the mirror image of the Roman government that perhaps created it)

Ahhh Chick Tracts, been a while since I seen one.

 

[sunlover1]

They're very annoyed!

Well that's because someone gave them the wrong size ball !

Tigers? I do not watch baseball, never have been a fan of that sport. But I hope they do well.

I'm right there with ya.
My mom was a huge fan of Larry the Bird.
I like BBall and Football and soccer if someone I know is playing.
But lately , soccer mom is me lol.

Even with some of these "invisible" claims we see the people and these people are not invisible. As Christians we are called to profess Jesus and about Jesus so Jesus will profess to the Father about us. If we are ashamed of Jesus then Jesus will not profess to the Father for us because we deny Him. So, in order to love Jesus we will do as He commanded and in doing so we will be heard and seen. Nothing invisible about that. .

Not at all.
We are not invisible lol.
It's obvious that this thread was not
intended to promote unity in Christ.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Your point that the planet Earth IS the church is an opinion I also think is baseless (and quite unique to you).

FWIW - I did not say the Earth is the Church. But it is a clever idea. I guess we could say the Universe is the Church for God created it all and since we live in the Universe it is a Church.

But my use of Church is as a Christian thing and found in the Nicene Creed as "One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church". In which case I was referring to people and places. The Earth is the only way I could deem to have a picture of this whole church. Is there another way? Since you asked maybe you know?

 

[JacktheCatholic]

I'm right there with ya.
My mom was a huge fan of Larry the Bird.
I like BBall and Football and soccer if someone I know is playing.
But lately , soccer mom is me lol.

As a kid I found baseball boring because I never played pitcher or catcher or first base, it seemed I was doing nothing most of the time.

But soccer and football and basketball and hockey and any sport that keeps you moving was and is fun to me. As a soccer mom you know how tiring the sport can be for the kids. In our time tv and video games and the internet take up so much of our free time I think active sports is necessary.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Not at all.
We are not invisible lol.
It's obvious that this thread was not
intended to promote unity in Christ.

Regardless. As Christians we can show love no matter the circumstances.

Jesus did say to love those that would hate us or persecute us because even the wicked love those who love them. So, when we are insulted or hurt by another we have an opportunity to act as Jesus would and forgive and love them back.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

FWIW - I did not say the Earth is the Church

I asked you to post a picture of the church - since you insist that it's visible. You posted, "A picture of the Earth should suffice."

But my use of Church is as a Christian thing and found in the Nicene Creed as "One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church". In which case I was referring to people

Good. Then post a picture of is bond of faith between ALL believers - past and present (since you are now wisely changing your view).

Is there another way? Since you asked maybe you know?

IF you're right and the church that is one, holy, catholic, communion of all beleivers is distinctively VISIBLE - then, yes, you should be easily able to take a picture of it and post it here. Of course, if you are wrong - then of course, you won't be able to post a picture here of it. Let's see what you do about that picture....





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[JacktheCatholic]

I asked you to post a picture of the church - since you insist that it's visible.


. But it is a clever idea. I guess we could say the Universe is the Church for God created it all and since we live in the Universe it is a Church.

But my use of Church is as a Christian thing and found in the Nicene Creed as "One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church". In which case I was referring to people and places. The Earth is the only way I could deem to have a picture of this whole church. Is there another way? Since you asked maybe you know?

[/QUOTE]

The One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church is both visible and invisible. As the visible church we have people and places and they are far too numerous for one picture. But this is not the first time I have stated this so maybe you do not understand what I am saying?

Church = assembly of believers.

Visible = seen with the eye

The Church has over a Billion people. That is over 1,000,000,000. They are people all over the globe, the planet Earth. They have buildings they go to for worship and they call this building a church. These buildings that together can house more than 1,000,000,000 people and are placed all over the planet's surface. So, how do you propose a person can take a picture of this?

If numerous pictures are acceptable then you will find pictures by going to google (or bing or other search engine) and searching for "church" and then selecting images. The results should be many.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Church = assembly of believers.

Visible = seen with the eye

The Church has over a Billion people. That is over 1,000,000,000.

The RCC denomination claims that there are a bit over 1 billion members of that singular denomination in the world.

I disagree with you that the other billion or so are not Christians. And I disagree with you that one is a Christian by virtue of being officially registered in a congregation of the RC denomination (you just declared all former popes to not be Christians - none of them are registered anywhere).

how do you propose a person can take a picture of this?

That's (literally) YOUR problem. YOU are the one insisting that the church is visible. If it is, take a picture of it and post it here.

If numerous pictures are acceptable then you will find pictures by going to google (or bing or other search engine) and searching for "church" and then selecting images. The results should be many.

You'd get lots of buildings (none of the the RC denomination). But I disagree with you that all the buildings currently existing that are used for religious purposes by Christians ARE Christianity (or even that buildings CAN be Christians).

You can "see" people

Yup. And if you believe that all 7 billion are Christians (and no others - including St. Ignatius or your former popes) you could say the church thus is visible - but you would be very close to the Protestant position and you would be pulling the rug out from the claims of the RCC and LDS for self.







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[sunlover1]

As a kid I found baseball boring because I never played pitcher or catcher or first base, it seemed I was doing nothing most of the time.

But soccer and football and basketball and hockey and any sport that keeps you moving was and is fun to me. As a soccer mom you know how tiring the sport can be for the kids. In our time tv and video games and the internet take up so much of our free time I think active sports is necessary.

Oh yeah. It's a blast to watch!
I guess I am too old to play lol
Can relate about baseball too.
I wasnt great at that either, I
preferred to play volleyball
and football.

Regardless. As Christians we can show love no matter the circumstances.

Not sure about the but I am sure i agree!

Jesus did say to love those that would hate us or persecute us because even the wicked love those who love them. So, when we are insulted or hurt by another we have an opportunity to act as Jesus would and forgive and love them back.

Amen.
We need to walk in love and forgiveness or we will be growing some ugly fruit in our own garden!

 

[JacktheCatholic]

The RCC denomination claims that there are a bit over 1 billion members of that singular denomination in the world.

I disagree with you that the other billion or so are not Christians. And I disagree with you that one is a Christian by virtue of being officially registered in a congregation of the RC denomination (you just declared all former popes to not be Christians - none of them are registered anywhere).

CaliforniaJosiah, I have to believe that you are not intentionally putting words in my mouth and being dishonest so I will correct you on this post because I never said that only the RCC is in the Body of Christ and I never claimed there are only one billion Christians. That said, your disagreement seems to be with someone else whom you may be mistaking me for.

Indeed, I believe that there are those who are in the Body of Christ that are not Roman Catholic or have any intention of being Roman Catholic so when I am speaking of the Church as the visible sign of Christianity I am speaking of all that are in the Body of Christ and where they choose to pray and worship Him. If this does not clear this matter of mistaken identity up then I do not know how else to convince you. Regardless, I will love you just the same and say to you and all that you are in my prayers with all the faithfull.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Amen.
We need to walk in love and forgiveness or we will be growing some ugly fruit in our own garden!

Amen to that sister!

I think our posts are also visible signs of the Church because we are showing love to one another.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

The One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church is both visible and invisible. As the visible church we have people and places and they are far too numerous for one picture. But this is not the first time I have stated this so maybe you do not understand what I am saying?

The Church has over a Billion people. That is over 1,000,000,000.

You seem to be equating YOUR singular denomination (the RCC) with the church.....

Your denomination claims over 1 billion members are registered in congregations legally affiliated with that singular denomination.

It is generally accepted that there are 2.0 to 2.2 billion CHRISTIANS alive in world today - with an even greater number no longer on the earth but also Christians.

I disagree with you that Christianity is the one billion persons currently officially registered in congregations legally affiliated with your singular, specific, particular denomination. But if those 1 billion ARE the church and ARE visible (as you insist), let's see the picture of them. Post it here. And we'll "see" Christianity (I might try posting pictures of other people - and we'll "see" what makes yours Christians?).





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