My Problem with the Invisible Church

Anoetos said:

You do realize that the expression "invisible church" actually refers simply to those believers in any communion who truly believe, right?

That it doesn't actually mean that these people, individually or collectively cannot be seen, right?

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It's supposed to be a secret.

Just kidding.

LittleLambofJesus said:

Is that expression just some thang the RCC came up with

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i think they actually coined the expression but the idea is from Luther and is related to the idea that, until the second coming, the tares persist among the wheat.

or, more properly, the idea is from the Bible; the idea of an ecclesiola in ecclesia is developed by Luther and several of the Reformers.

Anoetos said:

i think they actually coined the expression but the idea is from Luther and is related to the idea that, until the second coming, the tares persist among the wheat.

or, more properly, the idea is from the Bible; the idea of an ecclesiola in ecclesia is developed by Luther and several of the Reformers.

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Ahhh
So the tares can exist in any Denomination inside or outside of Roman Catholicism?

http://www.christianforums.com/t6814752-86/#post43249406
Martin Luther identifies the Antichrist over 500 years ago!

LittleLambofJesus said:

Ahhh
So the tares can exist in any Denomination inside or outside of Roman Catholicism?

http://www.christianforums.com/t6814752-86/#post43249406
Martin Luther identifies the Antichrist over 500 years ago!

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Certainly, there are folks who persist in sin and justify themselves in every church I am sure, just as there are those who truly cling only to Jesus, who dread their sin and its just punishment and who are fit recipients for the message of free grace in Christ.

Anoetos said:

Certainly, there are folks who persist in sin and justify themselves in every church I am sure, just as there are those who truly cling only to Jesus, who dread their sin and its just punishment and who are fit recipients for the message of free grace in Christ.

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It is so easy to paint 'ourSELF' as the wheat and the OTHER person as the TARE.

But the fact of the matter IS that the TARE exists in all of us. Every time a vile or sinning thought runs through the MIND OF MAN it is evidence of THE TARE within that person and all of us are subjected to those thoughts IF we have the honesty within ourselves to admit it, even without stating what that thought or thoughts may be.

Christians SUFFER a virtual ONSLAUGHT of these TARE or SIN thoughts by virtue of our calling BECAUSE of the very real attacks of the ENEMIES of God, that would be SATAN.

Jesus was clear about what would happen to those in whom The Word has been sown. Satan IMMEDIATELY comes into the attack zone and does so within the heart and within the MIND.

There is THE TARE, right there in the SAME LUMP of DUST as the WHEAT, seeking to CAPTURE the SAME WORD, the SAME LIGHT for itself in oppositions to the WHEAT.

Anyone who has had experience with gardening or farming knows the veracity of the TARE, and it is also a most spiritual principle, shown in reality for correlations.

Jesus used such parabolic expressions, provided them in physicality to SHOW each of us our respective conditions.

In short, the TARE is not your neighbors. It is much closer to home. Fortunately it is NOT YOU as Gods child, but there neverthless. A believer who denies they have any TARES may in fact even be OVERWHELMED by that TARE not being able to even see it has overSHADOWED them.

IF we view all of our fellow man and ourselves in this way, it is MUCH easier to LOVE all our neighbors and understand what is going on in this present environment with everybody.

How do we know the difference? Is it by doctrine? Tradition? Practice?

No, the evidence is this:

Matthew 7:20
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

For the believer who has had LOVE SEED of God sprung from their ground, they should understand that the TARE is growing right along with them.

Therein is our respective BATTLE for LIFE. The TARE is also in competition for GROUND, WATER and AIR, yet will produce NO WHEAT or FRUIT in that process.

Satan, that WICKED SEED, is in COMPETITION for our GROUND, that is OUR BODY, our WATER, which is GODS WORDS that he desires to STEAL from us, and our AIR, our SPIRITUAL OXYGEN that he might prevail. That is the 'natural order' of our environment and it is ALSO our present SPIRITUAL environment pitted against the anti-christ spirits.

Matthew 13:26
But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

s

Anoetos said:

Certainly, there are folks who persist in sin and justify themselves in every church I am sure, just as there are those who truly cling only to Jesus, who dread their sin and its just punishment and who are fit recipients for the message of free grace in Christ.

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And didn't the early RCC come up with their own doctrines to make money of those who dreaded their sins?

Another thread I wish that could be reopened

http://www.christianforums.com/t6870602-87/#post43630346
Roman church errors and inventions

Inventions:
-Infallability of the Pope
-Papal supremacy
-Immaculate coneption
-purgatory
Errors:
-Vatican I and II(not the councells but their decisions....although II was worse than I)
-indulgencies
-crusades
-Vatican City.... (never should have been a "seperate state"but goes hand in hand with the Papal supreority)

tadoflamb said:

It's invisible. I can't see it.

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Then I would recommend this "remedy"

Reve 3:18 I am together-advising to thee to buy beside of Me gold, having been fired out of fire, that thou should be being rich, and garments, white, that thou may be being about-cast/clothed and no may be being made manifest the vileness of the nakedness of thee,
and eye-salve/kollourion <2854> to annoint the eyes of thee, that thou may be seeing
[Luke 16:19-26/John 9:39]

Strong's Number G2854 matches the Greek &#954;&#959;&#955;&#955;&#959;&#8059;&#961;&#953;&#959;&#957; (kollourion), which occurs 1 time in 1 verse in the Greek concordance of the KJV

2854. kollourion kol-loo'-ree-on neuter of a presumed derivative of kollura (a cake; prob akin to the base of 2853); properly, a poultice (as made of or in the form of crackers), i.e. (by analogy) a plaster:-- eyesalve.

Wow 2007. Talk about a flashback.

Lamb gets bored, needs to resurrect old threads

LittleLambofJesus said:

And didn't the early RCC come up with their own doctrines to make money of those who dreaded their sins?

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Hi Lamb.
I dislike false rumors.

Indulgences were around since the OT. However; at a period of time, the abuse of the practice happened.
Abusing something doesn't mean it didn't exist previously.

The Invisible Church is in Heaven.

Fireinfolding said:

Lamb gets bored, needs to resurrect old threads

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Yea, I know. I was like the 3rd post and found this in my usercp.
Should we wrangle him down and make him say uncle?

Ephes 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

(pee a boo)

WarriorAngel said:

Yea, I know. I was like the 3rd post and found this in my usercp.
Should we wrangle him down and make him say uncle?

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Theres something we can agree on (hear that LambLINK?)

It's still cloaked via the Catholic Cloaking Technology.

tadoflamb said:

It's invisible. I can't see it.

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Jesus Christ is the visible image of the invisible God.

Christians are the visible image of the invisible Kingdom.

WarriorAngel said:

Yea, I know. I was like the 3rd post and found this in my usercp.
Should we wrangle him down and make him say uncle?

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Ya snooze......ya looze

She who sits as queen, not widow, never mourns - Christian Forums
She who sits as queen, not widow, never mourns

Matt 12:42 "A Queen of the south shall be being aroused/egerqhsetai <1453> (5701) in the judging with the generation, this, and shall be condemning it/her. That she came out of the ends of the land to hear the wisdom of Solomon and behold! more of Solomon here!"

Revelation 18:7 As much as She glorifies herself and indulges, be giving to Her tormenting and mourning.
That in Her heart she is saying 'I am sitting a Queen and Widow not I am and mourning not I shall be seeing'.

Are you saying i am Queen?
I'll go for that.

Ok - back to subject for a second.

The Catholic Church: The Church of The Early Fathers
The Catholic understanding would be that though the Kingdom of God encompasses all believers, the Catholic Church is the faithful body of believers on earth in communion with the apostolic authority established by Jesus Christ in union with the successor of Peter the chief of the apostles.


Examples:
St. Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2, AD 107.


Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist, which is celebrated by the bishop or by one whom he ordains [i.e., a presbyter]. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there, just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.


St. Polycarp, The Martyrdom of Polycarp, 8:1, & 16:2, AD 156.


When at last he had finished his prayer, in which he remembered all who had met with him ant any time, both small and great, both those with and those without renown, and the whole Catholic Church throughout the world. . .
And certainly the most admirable Polycarp was one of these [elect], in whose times among us he showed himself an apostolic and prophetic teacher and bishop of the Catholic Church in Smyrna.

Tertullian, Demurrer Against the Heretics, 20, AD 200.


Where was [the heretic] Marcian, that shipmaster of Pontus, the zealous student of Stoicism? Where was Valentinus, the disciple of Platonism? For it is evident that those men lived not so long ago &#8211; in the reign of Antoninus [AD 138-161] for the most part &#8211; and that they at first were believers in the doctrine of the Catholic Church, in the church of Rome under the episcopate of the blessed Eleutherus [AD 175-189], until on account of their ever restless curiosity, with which they even infected the brethren, they were more than once expelled. . . . Afterward . . . Marcian professed repentance and agreed to the conditions granted to him &#8211; that he should receive reconciliation if he restored to the Church all the others whom he had been training for perdition; he was prevented, however, by death.

Clement of Alexandria, Stromaties 7:17:107:3, aft. AD 202.


From what has been said, then, it seems clear to me that the true Church, that which is really ancient, is one; and in it are enrolled those who, in accord with a design, are just. . . . We say, therefore, that in substance, in concept, in origin and in eminence, the ancient and Catholic Church is alone, gathering as it does into the unity of the one faith which results from the familiar covenants, - or rather, from the one covenant in different times, by the will of the one God and through the one Lord, - those already chosen, those predestined by God who knew before the foundation of the world that they would be just.

St. Cyprian of Carthage, Letter of Cyprian to All His People 43 (40), 5, AD 251.


They who have not peace themselves now offer peace to others. They who have withdrawn from the Church promise to lead back and to recall the lapsed to the Church. There is one God and one Christ, and one Church, and one Chair founded on Peter by the word of the Lord. It is not possible to set up another altar or for there to be another priesthood besides that one altar and that one priesthood. Whoever has gathered elsewhere is scattering.

St. Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures 18:23, AD 350.


[The Church] is called Catholic, then, because it extends over the whole world, from end to end of the earth, and because it teaches universally and infallibly each and every doctrine which must come to the knowledge of men, concerning things visible and invisible, heavenly and earthly, and because it brings every race of men into subjection to godliness . . .

St. Augustine, The True Religion 7:12, AD 390.


We must hold to the Christian religion and to communication in her Church, which is Catholic and which is called Catholic not only by her own members but even by all her enemies. When heretics or the adherents of schisms talk about her, not among themselves but with strangers, willy-nilly they call her nothing else but Catholic. They will not be understood unless they distinguish her by this name, which the whole world employs in her regard.

St. Augustine, Against the Letter of Mani Called &#8216;The Foundation&#8217; 5:6, AD 397.


If you should find someone who does not yet believe in the gospel what would you [Mani] answer him when he says, &#8220;I do not believe&#8221;? Indeed, I would not believe the gospel myself if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.


Vincent of Lerins, Notebooks 3:5, AD 434.


What then will a Catholic Christian do if a small portion of the Church has cut itself off from the communion of the universal faith? What, surely, but prefer the soundness of the whole body to the unsoundness of a pestilent and corrupt member?

Council of Chalcedon, Canon 14, AD 451.


Since in certain provinces readers and cantors have been allowed to marry, this sacred synod decrees that none of them is permitted to marry a wife of heterodox views. If those thus married have already had children, and if they have already had the children baptized among heretics, they are to bring them into the community of the Catholic Church.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invisible_church#cite_note-0

Only God knows who are truly his, and the whole creation waits in eager expectation of their revealing at his coming.

Wheat and tares grows together in the sons field until the harvest.
some who cry Lord Lord will not be known by him.....yikes, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, should now be understood.