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After such replies by the fire and brimstone brigade, I have certainly had reservations about contributing any more to this site.
And yet, you seem strangely nonchalant at not only the prospect of your "lost" loved ones facing conscious eternal torture, but also at the value judgement that that is somehow totally right and just.Furthermore, you've had a friend die. Not to take away from that, but I have had family members die, even some that were at best lapsed in their faith. Where they are right now, I don't know. I don't know what happened in that last 30 seconds of their conscious lives. One was even younger than me - it's a trip to remember when someone was kicking inside of her mother's womb, when you heard about the birth, when you saw her being baptized, when you remember growing up together, when you remember how you felt when she started taking the wrong path, when you saw her take first communion, when you see her son at holidays, and you don't see her. Please do not make me out to be someone who does not know the pain of loss, or someone who does not take other people's losses to heart. You carry the memory of your friend. This is one of the memories that I carry.
And you accuse me of not having empathy. I at least have the decency to not press the topic when I know someone is hurting.And yet, you seem strangely nonchalant at not only the prospect of your "lost" loved ones facing conscious eternal torture, but also at the value judgement that that is somehow totally right and just.
Be honest with me: Does that belief really bring you peace in your soul? Can you place your hand on your heart and affirm the above without feeling pain and anguish?
Or are you so deadened of human compassion by dogma that the prospect of the conscious eternal torture of a deceased loved one doesn't fill you with inner turmoil and strife, and that you honestly have no qualms whatsoever concerning the rightness and justness of such a judicial process?
Like I said, I don't know where she is. Wherever she is, I can't do anything about it. I'll either see her again after my time has come, or I will not. God is right in all his ways, so wherever she is, God didn't make a mistake.
So you admit God bears the responsibility for overseeing a system whereby all atheists face conscious eternal torture, including any friends who died young as atheists, and you consider this to be completely right and just?
Hand on heart?
I was traumatised by Evangelical Christians in my early 20s, [...]
They showed me very little empathy or compassion in their dogmatic attitudes, especially considering my grief. [...]
I personally find beliefs like the above and the associated bigotry quite toxic, myself. [...]
It is really horrible and hurtful to clearly be told that [...]
I do consider it quite a mean-spirited idea though, personally, to suppose that [...]
I was deeply wounded by Evangelical Christians, [...]
My experience with Evangelicals/Fundamentalists (they called themselves both) definitely left a scar though. [...]
I will not be converting to Christianity (in any form) any time soon though. I am quite confident as an atheist myself now.
I thought I would share my experiences here, to get a different perspective.
Kind regards,
Mequa
So you admit God bears the responsibility for overseeing a system whereby all atheists face conscious eternal torture, including any friends who died young as atheists, and you consider this to be completely right and just?
Hand on heart?
My problem with Evangelical Christianity
This isn't just what "evangelical Christianity" teaches, it is what the Bible teaches. Evangelical Christians are merely communicating what is revealed in Scripture. If you don't like this teaching, your problem is with the divine Author of it, not just evangelical Christians.I was traumatised by Evangelical Christians in my early 20s, at my university's Student Union. They told me a friend who died age 20 is going to Hell. And that not believing in their doctrines will lead to conscious eternal torture.
That's really unfortunate. It can be hard to balance fidelity to the hard truths of God's Word with a sensitivity to people's pain when part of the pain they feel comes from the hard truths of God's Word. But a follower of Christ shows no real love when they carry on as though the hard truths can be ignored or set aside just because a person is hurting. A person's pain must never trump God's truth - especially if their eternal destiny hangs in the balance.Evangelical Christians told me my atheist friend who died in a car accident age 20 is facing conscious eternal torment for his lack of faith. They showed me very little empathy or compassion in their dogmatic attitudes, especially considering my grief.
It happens.I heard that Elaine Pagels left Evangelical Christianity for the exact same reason. A non-Christian friend died (in his case Jewish), and she was told they are in Hell, so she left Evangelicalism. That belief no longer resonated with her, nor seemed reasonable.
Well, you're entitled to your opinion, of course. Do you have a struggle about which you wanted Christian advice? Or did you just come here to bash evangelical Christians?I am now an atheist myself. I personally find beliefs like the above and the associated bigotry quite toxic, myself. The notion of conscious eternal torture based on a thought crime is effectively positing and glorifying a cosmic tyrant. It is really horrible and hurtful to clearly be told that a friend of mine who died young is now going to spend eternity in an infinity of pain. No matter how irrational that belief may be.
As a Christian, I find the atheist idea of life ending at the grave obscene and a cause for profound moral apathy and despair. The atheist's view of death means there is no ultimate justice, that some evil people really do "get away with it." Their view means also that the end of a moral, self-sacrificing, good life is identical to the end of an immoral, selfish, and evil life. Whether one is a Mother Theresa or a Hitler, the final end is the same. How repugnant! And what a cause for moral apathy and philosophical despair!As an atheist I derive immense comfort from the idea that all pain and suffering ends at death, no matter what morally evil deeds a person committed during their lifetime, or whatever their belief system. This is also a Biblical principle, though: "The wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23).
No surprise here...My view is, as Epicurus taught, true salvation is found through abandoning the fear and desire of an afterlife reward and punishment and fear of a wrathful deity, which weighs heavily on the psyche (mind/soul), and embracing a naturalistic worldview, together with following an ideal of life, health and inner peace in which terror of divine judgement and punishment (and the need for afterlife hopes) need have no place.
So, basically you're saying the doctrine of hell is irrational because it makes you uncomfortable. This is not good reasoning, I'm afraid.Thus I cannot accept the fear of Hell as rational, given its lack of empirical grounding combined with obvious use to control, manipulate and emotionally blackmail people, stirring up neurotic fears of Hell which conflict with genuine imperturable inner peace, or ataraxia.
All I see is bias and Strawman argument in operation here, not reason. You seem to me to have little reason to be comfortable with atheistic naturalism.I thus derive comfort from a naturalistic worldview in which the horrifying prospect concerning my friend's proposed infinity of pain, as put forward by Evangelical Christian dogma, is confidently viewed as an improbable hypothesis.
Again, a Strawman at work here. It isn't the evangelical Christian with whom you have a problem; it is the Bible from which the doctrine of hell is derived that is your real opponent. It isn't the evangelical Christian who is "mean-spirited" but the God who punishes unrepentant sinners with eternal punishment.I do consider it quite a mean-spirited idea though, personally, to suppose that a person not following their faith gets conscious eternal torture and this is somehow right and just.
Uh, yeah... Well, for one, God does not punish people with eternal hell because they sinned against another person, but because their sin is always ultimately against their infinite Creator. No sin is every merely "finite" when it is committed against the infinite God of the universe.In my view, infinite punishment for finite sins (including inherited Original Sin) makes no sense and feels quite evil, is rooted in vengeance and hatred not corrective justice, and would in fact not be justice by any reasonable standard.
Oh, brother! STRAWMAN! I get that you are offended by the doctrine of hell, but this is just getting silly. Why not just slough off the idea of hell as the nonsense you say it is and move on. Why make the investment of time and energy to deride a belief you think is groundless? What difference does it make if a Christian thinks you are going to hell? There is no hell, right? So who cares?! Eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow you die! Don't waste your time on here venting against a religious illusion!Not even so much vengeance as some malevolent sadism, for a God to oversee the existence of such a Hell for all non-believers as he sits on his throne - almost like a sadistic kid with an ant farm enjoying roasting his ants live over a fire.
You reap what you sow. If you want a civil, pleasant exchange, you might want to ease up on the nasty characterizations of Christians and their beliefs.Anyway, I hope my views do not cause too much offence here. I was deeply wounded by Evangelical Christians, and they did seem to be very heavy on dogma and light on compassion, in my unfortunate experience. Some of them have attempted to shut down dialogue before when I mentioned the issues I raise on this thread, such as my experience with my friend, in a way I felt lacked integrity. I hope I will not have such issues here.
You haven't created with this antagonistic post of yours fertile ground upon which to do so.I do hope I can still get on with people of different beliefs here, despite my issues, and not allow religion to come between friendships.
Talk like this doesn't foster positive dialogue. If you truly want good interactions, you can't plead for it in one breath and then slam those with whom you want such interaction in your next breath.My experience with Evangelicals/Fundamentalists (they called themselves both) definitely left a scar though. Although I must admit, I am wary of considering myself personal friends with a person who thinks it is right and just that I face conscious eternal torture in Hell. Even if I personally consider that belief to be absurd, the value judgement that me being tortured forever is right, and that of friends too, does feel hateful. It seems quite a source of bigotry.
Uh huh.I will not be converting to Christianity (in any form) any time soon though. I am quite confident as an atheist myself now.
I thought I would share my experiences here, to get a different perspective.
Kind regards,
Mequa
And yet Jesus teaches to turn the other cheek and not retaliate against apparent insult. Particularly when you are representing the faith, as you clearly are now.You reap what you sow. If you want a civil, pleasant exchange, you might want to ease up on the nasty characterizations of Christians and their beliefs.
And Jesus was also the one who called people on their sin and described the Pharisees as hypocrites, vipers, white-washed tombs, sons of hell and so on. Clearly, if we are following Jesus' example, there is a place for calling a spade and spade and shining the light on what is evil - even if it offends. This is exactly what I did with your post (and very gently, I might add).And yet Jesus teaches to turn the other cheek and not retaliate against apparent insult. Particularly when you are representing the faith, as you clearly are now.
Not really. I am, though, concerned about your abuse of this forum, making it a platform for venting your vitriolic antagonism toward evangelical Christianity rather than using it for its stated purpose, which is to share your struggles with Christians in order that they may offer Christian support to you (ie prayer, biblical advice, etc).It seems you are offended and insulted by my frank rejection of your belief system,
Yeah, this show-me-empathy-or-compassion-by-my-definition-or-you-aren't-a-Christian stuff is a rather transparent attempt to control and manipulate the conversation to suit yourself. Its a typical but illegitimate strategy for atheists, in my experience.and are thus behaving in an unchristian manner through a complete absence of empathy or compassion. This is typical for fundamentalists in my experience.
Well, fortunately, your opinion isn't the one that counts. God sees my heart and knows what my true intentions are (quite unlike you who has a bitter agenda coloring his perception).To be honest, you don't seem to be a sincere disciple of Christ in your conduct.
Yes, he did. He also threw the money-changers out of the temple, he publicly and severely castigated the religious leaders of his day, he went about telling people to "go and sin no more," he taught of a hell to shun and a heaven to gain, and warned the wicked to flee God's wrathful judgement. From what you've written in this thread, you'd have been one of the people to whom Christ offered his warnings and criticisms.Christ taught to rejoice when persecuted and bless those you feel persecuted by, to turn the other cheek and not return evil for evil, and to manifest humility, love and compassion to all fellow sinners.
Well, you're an avowed atheist so you would, wouldn't you. "Finding them not credible" is a far cry from proving they are not credible.I won't bother responding to the numerous straw men in the above post. I don't reject Hell because it's an unpleasant idea, I reject such claims due to finding them not credible. The same goes for the authority and inerrancy of the Bible.
See, this is the problem you run into when, as an atheist, you try to use the Bible as a tool in your arguments. You just end up showing how little you know of the Bible.You did say though that the idea of evil people getting away with it in the end is more horrifying to you than the idea of some humans being tortured forever. I find that idea a product of impotent vengefulness and hatred as Nietzsche pointed out, which is ironic as Jesus condemned taking revenge.
See, here is another of your attempts to argue in Strawman fashion. I don't hate my fellow man at all. I urge them as often as I can to take the way of salvation, the way of escape, God offers them in the Saviour, Jesus Christ. No one has to go to hell. As C.S. Lewis pointed out, the door to hell is locked from the inside. Anyone who wishes to be saved from the eternal consequences of their sin may be. Where is the mean spirit in this? Where is the maniacal torturer you would paint God to be in the truth of salvation? God was under no obligation to save any of us from our sin, but, at great cost to Himself, He made a way for us all to live in eternal, joyful fellowship with Himself. Rather puts a serious crimp in the dark picture of God you're wanting to paint. Monstrous torturers don't offer salvation.If you sincerely hate your fellow human beings so much that you think it would be benevolent for a deity to oversee their conscious eternal torture, then I honestly feel sorry for you and the hate and bitterness in your soul.
Throwing pejorative labels around doesn't help your position any. In your own way, you are just as bigoted against Christians as you want to assert that I am toward all non-believers. But you don't see me throwing that fact at you, do you?If you think everyone who isn't a Christian rightly gets tortured forever and this is right and deserved for the evil thought crime of rejecting Christ (plus inherited sin), then you are a bigot.
LOL! Your bias is showing - and your ignorance. See above.What a horrifying, disgusting doctrine of hatred, to devalue human lives that much to think a person deserves an infinity and eternity of pain and suffering for being naughty and not blindly believing in unsubstantiated dogmas.
A person is responsible for their own hostility, to behave in a reactive manner and then pin the blame on me for your and others' own hostile behaviour is not only lacking in personal accountability, but not Christ-like either, and thus not really demonstrating the fruits of the spirit you claim to prize.You reap what you sow. If you want a civil, pleasant exchange, you might want to ease up on the nasty characterizations of Christians and their beliefs.
That is incorrect. I do not assert that "Christians" (by which you mean fundamentalists) rightly and justly get conscious eternal torture as a consequence of the thought crime of disagreeing with me. To consider my stance as bigoted against "Christians" makes little sense in light of the fact that fundamentalists really do think it is right and just that I and others get conscious eternal torture as a consequence of the thought crime of disagreeing with them.Throwing pejorative labels around doesn't help your position any. In your own way, you are just as bigoted against Christians as you want to assert that I am toward all non-believers. But you don't see me throwing that fact at you, do you?
It doesn't look that way to me. Aiki is quite direct, he is correcting you.I get the sense you are trying hard to make me feel unwelcome here.
I agree. I don't think that is the reason it happened, I think it is a popular way to understand the effect of what happened, as a simple abstraction. Here is what the facts say:God sacrificing himself to himself as a loophole to get his creation off the hook for disproportionate punishment for breaking rules he created, while only giving this benefit to people based on belief in a proposition, makes no rational sense I am afraid.
What this shows is that Jesus had to choose how to respond to this attack. I see He could have defeated with brute force, as He said here. He also could have fled. But He chose to undergo the treatment which the mob determined to inflict. You should also see in Matthew 26:39 that it was not something that He actually wanted.https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+26%3A53-56&version=NIV said:53 Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? 54 But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?
55 In that hour Jesus said to the crowd, Am I leading a rebellion, that you have come out with swords and clubs to capture me? Every day I sat in the temple courts teaching, and you did not arrest me. 56 But this has all taken place that the writings of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples deserted him and fled.
Does this include the hostility that you've shown evangelical Christians in this thread? Doesn't look like it to me...A person is responsible for their own hostility,
But this is exactly what you did with those Christians who told you your friend was in hell! You behaved in a "reactive manner" and then blamed the evangelical Christians for your hostility.to behave in a reactive manner and then pin the blame on me for your and others' own hostile behaviour
I hope you're taking note of your own words here......is not only lacking in personal accountability,
See my last post....but not Christ-like either, and thus not really demonstrating the fruits of the spirit you claim to prize.
LOL! I'm sorry, but you have absolutely no idea from the very brief exchange we've had in this thread how I live my life. You are in no position whatever to suggest that I am not living according to the commands of my Saviour. And you are well beyond the bounds when you threaten me with hell because I am not kowtowing to your rather obnoxious and manipulative posts. Good grief! Do you really think you can threaten me with my own faith? LOL! You understand it so poorly!"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." - Matthew 7:21
If you take seriously what Jesus says about Hell, then I also suggest you take seriously what he says to the Pharisees.
You are completely welcome here! It is your nasty comments about evangelical Christians and your mischaracterizations of the doctrines of the faith that are not. I'm sure the Pharisees felt much like you do toward me when Jesus took them to task about their words and deeds but that didn't stop Jesus from saying what he said. Likewise, I am not going to cower from confronting you just because you think being Christ-like means letting you be both disrespectful and false in your posts without challenge.I get the sense you are trying hard to make me feel unwelcome here. Not really the Christ-like spirit in representing the faith either.
No, I don't mean "fundamentalists," I mean Christians. Please don't put words in my mouth.I do not assert that "Christians" (by which you mean fundamentalists)...
This isn't what is required for you to have a bigoted attitude toward them. Comments like the following are what expose your bigotry:...rightly and justly get conscious eternal torture as a consequence of the thought crime of disagreeing with me.
A Strawman again. This isn't what Christians think at all. Hell has nothing to do with whether or not you agree with Christians but whether or not you agree with the God they serve.To consider my stance as bigoted against "Christians" makes little sense in light of the fact that fundamentalists really do think it is right and just that I and others get conscious eternal torture as a consequence of the thought crime of disagreeing with them.
Hey, if you want to believe Jung, go ahead. I prefer the God of the Universe myself.Jungian psychology has interpreted that as facing the Shadow self, one's dark side which is cut off from one's conscious awareness. "Salvation" consists of knowing yourself and acting wisely, not blind belief in dogmas and dependence on dogmas of substitutionary atonement.
Fortunately, your saying so doesn't make it so.Interpreted as a framework, the fundamentalist Christian model is one of Middle Eastern barbarism, one of rancour and authoritarian tyranny.
Then it's a good thing this isn't what Christianity teaches. Maybe you should actually try reading the Bible without the lens of your bigotry clouding its message. Just a thought.God sacrificing himself to himself as a loophole to get his creation off the hook for disproportionate punishment for breaking rules he created, while only giving this benefit to people based on belief in a proposition, makes no rational sense I am afraid.
Uh huh.Anyway, I do bless you for your faith. Stay true to your principles as I will to mine.
The answer to that is really quite simple. Demonstrate an ability to place yourself in my shoes, such as in the scenario mentioned in the OP. How would you feel if you were personally told that a friend 1) is in Hell, 2) forever, 3) that is right and just? Not coming from your own frame of reference but from mine, having been told that about a personal friend by Evangelical Christians. How would you feel?
Are you able to sincerely place yourself in the frame of reference of someone having such experiences with Evangelical Christianity, and thus how I do not personally perceive it as loving and compassionate?
Or would such an exercise of empathy be both painful and devastating to one's Evangelical faith, and does maintaining such a faith (and in my view, bigotry) therefore depend on not placing oneself in other people's shoes?
The thing about this thread that doesn't make sense to me, is that Mequa was merely sharing an experience, and I highly doubt he broad brushes all fundamentalist Christians as being condemning and judgmental.
The reason I have such issues with fundamentalists is because of their insulting and condescending reactions to having their ideas challenged. I'm with Korzybski on this one: The map is not the terrain. Criticising ideas purporting to describe the God of the Universe, does not constitute insulting God. Criticising ideas held by believers (their "map") does not imply a personal criticism of the believer. So catty remarks in retaliation are uncalled for.
I was very deeply hurt by the comments here, and so declined to comment further. It seems some people are really not being Christ-like on this thread and displaying very little empathy and compassion. I am a highly vulnerable person and the insults, disrespect and hostility here put me in a very bad place. Shall I assume that was intentional? I wouldn't put such sadistic bullying behaviour past anyone who sincerely believes everyone else justly gets eternal torture.
It's not surprising that some fundamentalists who have a worldview based on hate (disguised as love), today's Pharisees, act in a hateful, hostile, insulting, hurtful, and aggressive un-Christlike manner. After all, as Christ said, by their fruits you will know them. This thread is a perfect case in point.
Christ taught not to retaliate insult (real or imagined), to have compassion for people who persecute you (real or imagined), and he condemned religious hypocrites like the Pharisees in the strongest terms, who used faith as a stick to bludgeon others with.
What I see here are bigots projecting their own bigotry onto me, making personal attacks, acting like a mob of bullies and kicking me around like a playtoy until I am highly distraught, with no empathy and compassion, merely going on the attack due to a criticism of ideas. If this is Christianity then I want no part of it.
All the disrespectful, condescending, insulting, attacking posters here have done is deepen my personal hatred for bigoted fundamentalists. I am wondering if that was the intention. If the intention instead was to give a positive witness to the God of the Bible, then this behaviour is folly. On the other hand, if you wish to provide evidence for Nietzsche's notion that (fundamentalist) Christians are essentially a sugar-coated gang dressing up hatred and revenge as false "love", then such hypocritical behaviour does seem to fit.
I have certainly been made to feel extremely unwelcome here, and that this forum is a very inhospitable and hostile place, subject to mobbing and bullying behaviour with no empathy and compassion. I have been made to feel profoundly psychologically and emotionally unsafe signing in here, with sweaty palms, a sickness in my stomach, and the insulting and hostile interaction weighing heavily on my mind. I cannot have such hurtful interaction in my life.
Again, I am not sure if that was the intention, and given the ethics taught by Jesus, the behaviour of some members here makes little sense either from a Christian or a purely pragmatic perspective.
If such disrespectful, insulting and hurtful personal attacks are the outcome for my sharing a heartfelt experience here, and expressing my profound issues with certain ideas, then this really is not a positive, safe, spiritually nurturing and loving environment. I was actually interested in having another look at certain aspects of Christianity, however my experiences on this thread with Evangelical believers has made me decide to steer well clear.
I was traumatised by Evangelical Christians in my early 20s, at my university's Student Union. They told me a friend who died age 20 is going to Hell. And that not believing in their doctrines will lead to conscious eternal torture.
Evangelical Christians told me my atheist friend who died in a car accident age 20 is facing conscious eternal torment for his lack of faith. They showed me very little empathy or compassion in their dogmatic attitudes, especially considering my grief.
I heard that Elaine Pagels left Evangelical Christianity for the exact same reason. A non-Christian friend died (in his case Jewish), and she was told they are in Hell, so she left Evangelicalism. That belief no longer resonated with her, nor seemed reasonable.
I am now an atheist myself. I personally find beliefs like the above and the associated bigotry quite toxic, myself. The notion of conscious eternal torture based on a thought crime is effectively positing and glorifying a cosmic tyrant. It is really horrible and hurtful to clearly be told that a friend of mine who died young is now going to spend eternity in an infinity of pain. No matter how irrational that belief may be.
As an atheist I derive immense comfort from the idea that all pain and suffering ends at death, no matter what morally evil deeds a person committed during their lifetime, or whatever their belief system. This is also a Biblical principle, though: "The wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23).
My view is, as Epicurus taught, true salvation is found through abandoning the fear and desire of an afterlife reward and punishment and fear of a wrathful deity, which weighs heavily on the psyche (mind/soul), and embracing a naturalistic worldview, together with following an ideal of life, health and inner peace in which terror of divine judgement and punishment (and the need for afterlife hopes) need have no place.
Thus I cannot accept the fear of Hell as rational, given its lack of empirical grounding combined with obvious use to control, manipulate and emotionally blackmail people, stirring up neurotic fears of Hell which conflict with genuine imperturable inner peace, or ataraxia.
I thus derive comfort from a naturalistic worldview in which the horrifying prospect concerning my friend's proposed infinity of pain, as put forward by Evangelical Christian dogma, is confidently viewed as an improbable hypothesis.
I do consider it quite a mean-spirited idea though, personally, to suppose that a person not following their faith gets conscious eternal torture and this is somehow right and just. In my view, infinite punishment for finite sins (including inherited Original Sin) makes no sense and feels quite evil, is rooted in vengeance and hatred not corrective justice, and would in fact not be justice by any reasonable standard. Not even so much vengeance as some malevolent sadism, for a God to oversee the existence of such a Hell for all non-believers as he sits on his throne - almost like a sadistic kid with an ant farm enjoying roasting his ants live over a fire.
Anyway, I hope my views do not cause too much offence here. I was deeply wounded by Evangelical Christians, and they did seem to be very heavy on dogma and light on compassion, in my unfortunate experience. Some of them have attempted to shut down dialogue before when I mentioned the issues I raise on this thread, such as my experience with my friend, in a way I felt lacked integrity. I hope I will not have such issues here.
I do hope I can still get on with people of different beliefs here, despite my issues, and not allow religion to come between friendships. My experience with Evangelicals/Fundamentalists (they called themselves both) definitely left a scar though. Although I must admit, I am wary of considering myself personal friends with a person who thinks it is right and just that I face conscious eternal torture in Hell. Even if I personally consider that belief to be absurd, the value judgement that me being tortured forever is right, and that of friends too, does feel hateful. It seems quite a source of bigotry.
I will not be converting to Christianity (in any form) any time soon though. I am quite confident as an atheist myself now.
I thought I would share my experiences here, to get a different perspective.
Kind regards,
Mequa
I was traumatised by Evangelical Christians in my early 20s, at my university's Student Union. They told me a friend who died age 20 is going to Hell. And that not believing in their doctrines will lead to conscious eternal torture.
Evangelical Christians told me my atheist friend who died in a car accident age 20 is facing conscious eternal torment for his lack of faith. They showed me very little empathy or compassion in their dogmatic attitudes, especially considering my grief.
I heard that Elaine Pagels left Evangelical Christianity for the exact same reason. A non-Christian friend died (in his case Jewish), and she was told they are in Hell, so she left Evangelicalism. That belief no longer resonated with her, nor seemed reasonable.
I am now an atheist myself. I personally find beliefs like the above and the associated bigotry quite toxic, myself. The notion of conscious eternal torture based on a thought crime is effectively positing and glorifying a cosmic tyrant. It is really horrible and hurtful to clearly be told that a friend of mine who died young is now going to spend eternity in an infinity of pain. No matter how irrational that belief may be.
As an atheist I derive immense comfort from the idea that all pain and suffering ends at death, no matter what morally evil deeds a person committed during their lifetime, or whatever their belief system. This is also a Biblical principle, though: "The wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23).
My view is, as Epicurus taught, true salvation is found through abandoning the fear and desire of an afterlife reward and punishment and fear of a wrathful deity, which weighs heavily on the psyche (mind/soul), and embracing a naturalistic worldview, together with following an ideal of life, health and inner peace in which terror of divine judgement and punishment (and the need for afterlife hopes) need have no place.
Thus I cannot accept the fear of Hell as rational, given its lack of empirical grounding combined with obvious use to control, manipulate and emotionally blackmail people, stirring up neurotic fears of Hell which conflict with genuine imperturable inner peace, or ataraxia.
I thus derive comfort from a naturalistic worldview in which the horrifying prospect concerning my friend's proposed infinity of pain, as put forward by Evangelical Christian dogma, is confidently viewed as an improbable hypothesis.
I do consider it quite a mean-spirited idea though, personally, to suppose that a person not following their faith gets conscious eternal torture and this is somehow right and just. In my view, infinite punishment for finite sins (including inherited Original Sin) makes no sense and feels quite evil, is rooted in vengeance and hatred not corrective justice, and would in fact not be justice by any reasonable standard. Not even so much vengeance as some malevolent sadism, for a God to oversee the existence of such a Hell for all non-believers as he sits on his throne - almost like a sadistic kid with an ant farm enjoying roasting his ants live over a fire.
Anyway, I hope my views do not cause too much offence here. I was deeply wounded by Evangelical Christians, and they did seem to be very heavy on dogma and light on compassion, in my unfortunate experience. Some of them have attempted to shut down dialogue before when I mentioned the issues I raise on this thread, such as my experience with my friend, in a way I felt lacked integrity. I hope I will not have such issues here.
I do hope I can still get on with people of different beliefs here, despite my issues, and not allow religion to come between friendships. My experience with Evangelicals/Fundamentalists (they called themselves both) definitely left a scar though. Although I must admit, I am wary of considering myself personal friends with a person who thinks it is right and just that I face conscious eternal torture in Hell. Even if I personally consider that belief to be absurd, the value judgement that me being tortured forever is right, and that of friends too, does feel hateful. It seems quite a source of bigotry.
I will not be converting to Christianity (in any form) any time soon though. I am quite confident as an atheist myself now.
I thought I would share my experiences here, to get a different perspective.
Kind regards,
Mequa
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