My Omphalos Challenge

[Wiccan_Child]

What's a "git" --- or do I want to know?

Hmm, how to translate it... heh, so much for a common language.

1) That's because it is 12-13 billion years old.
2) No, it doesn't. It shows that the universe has only been in existence for 6100 years.
3) God created the universe to be as old as it looks. It just doesn't look that old --- it is that old.

Hmm, I think I understand. God created the universe 6100 years ago, and retroactively created a timeline to tack on the end, yes? But the fact remains that the universe is only 6100 years old: 6101 years ago, it didn't exist. Even if you stick on an extra piece of time going in the other direction, the current universe is still only 6100 years old. Indeed, God still created the universe in a particular state 6100 years ago, and that state contained things like fossils and coal and whatnot. But those fossils were never alive! That coal was never alive!

History isn't something that can be just attached on the end. It's basically like making a trompe-l'œil.

 

[dlamberth]

Awl righty --- let's go over it again, then:



What's a "git" --- or do I want to know?



1) That's because it is 12-13 billion years old.
2) No, it doesn't. It shows that the universe has only been in existence for 6100 years.
3) God created the universe to be as old as it looks. It just doesn't look that old --- it is that old.

Why in the world would God send these mixed messages? What's to gain from it? Why the deception?

When you get down to it, if we are being totally honest, I see this whole argument that AV is making as an attempt to fit a square peg into a round hole. His beliefs tell him that the earth is only 6100 years old. Science tells us it's much older. AV is trying to have it both ways. And from my vantage point, his argument not working.

.

 

[AV1611VET]

Hmm, I think I understand. God created the universe 6100 years ago, and retroactively created a timeline to tack on the end, yes?

WC, I so fail to see what the problem is. I really do. God created the earth 6100 years ago --- period.

But the fact remains that the universe is only 6100 years old...

No --- the fact doesn't remain that the universe is only 6100 years old. You keep trying to add an Omphalos quality to God's creation; and I'm not going to let that happen. You are the one saying it's 6100 years old - not I.

... 6101 years ago, it didn't exist.

Correct.

Even if you stick on an extra piece of time going in the other direction, the current universe is still only 6100 years old.

I don't stick anything anywhere. I don't redefine words. I don't do anything but agree with you "scientists" that the earth is 4.57 billion years old. Please, what is the problem here?

Indeed, God still created the universe in a particular state 6100 years ago...

Yup.

...and that state contained things like fossils and coal and whatnot.

Nope --- there you go again with that Omphalos junk.

History isn't something that can be just attached on the end. It's basically like making a trompe-l'œil.

Again --- Embedded Age = maturity without history.

Without --- without --- without ---

p.s. Did I say it is maturity without history?

 

[AV1611VET]

His beliefs tell him that the earth is only 6100 years old.

I'm starting to think this is some kind of attempt at flaming or something. It's gotta be. You guys can't be this dense.

 

[dlamberth]

I'm starting to think this is some kind of attempt at flaming or something. It's gotta be. You guys can't be this dense.

Why?

 

[AV1611VET]

Why?

For the sheer number of times I've claimed this earth is 4.57 billion years old. I'm sure you've seen me say it somewhere.

 

[Vance]

OK, AV, you think the flood happened around 2350 BC. We have very clear evidence of ongoing, complex cultures in Egypt, the Indus Valley, China, and other places in the hundreds of years leading up to that date and continuing on right after that date as if nothing happened at that time.

So, what you are proposing is the following:

There are all these complex cultures in various parts of the world. The great flood comes along and wipes them all out, but somehow leaves in place all kinds of artifacts from those cultures that should have been destroyed. Further, all of the people are destroyed, and then right after the flood, the handful of people left somehow get back to all of those wide-flung cultures, repopulate them, adopt the same language, writing, culture and (here is an odd one) religion as the previous occupants, all quickly enough so that there is not even a blip in the ongoing historical record.

Is that your proposal?

 

[thaumaturgy]

2300 sounds good to me, Vance --- Usher puts it around 2350.

And here's a list of things going on during that tumultuous time when all life except what was on the Ark was destroyed!

24th century BC

• c. 2900–2334 BC — Mesopotamian wars of the Early Dynastic period continue.
• c. 2383 BC — Pepi II Neferkare, the longest reigning monarch of all time, started to rule at age 6.
• c. 2350 BC — End of the Early Dynastic IIIb period in Mesopotamia.
• c. 2350 BC — First destruction of the city of Mari.
• c. 2345 BC — End of Fifth Dynasty. Pharaoh Unas died.
• c. 2345 BC — Sixth dynasty of Egypt starts (other date is 2460 BC).
• c. 2340 BC–2180 BC — Akkadian Empire.
• c. 2334 BC–2279 BC — Semitic chieftain Sargon I of Akkad's conquest of Sumer and Mesopotamia.
• c. 2333 BCE- The state of Gojoseon (Modern-day Korea) founded by Dangun Wanggeom during the reign of the Chinese Emperor Yao.
• City of Lothal founded under the Indus valley civilization.

(SOURCE)

23rd century BC

• 2334–2279 BC — (short chronology) Sargon of Akkad's conquest of Mesopotamia.
• c. 2300 BC — Bronze Age starts.
• c. 2300 BC–2184 BC — Disk of Enheduanna, from Ur, (modern Muqaiyir, Iraq) is made. It is now in University of Pennsylvania Museum of Archaeology and Anthropology, University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia.
• c. 2300 BC–2200 BC — Head of a man from Nineveh (modern Kuyunjik, Iraq) is made. It is now in Iraq Museum, Baghdad.
• c. 2300 BC — Canal Bahr Yusuf (current name) is created when the waterway from the Nile to the natural lake (now Lake Karun) is widened and deepened to create a canal.
• c. 2289 BC — Pepi II Neferkare, the longest reigning monarch of all time, dies at the age of 100 after 94 years of rule.
• c. 2288 BC–2224/2194 BC — Pepy II and his mother, Queen Merye-ankhnes, Sixth dynasty of Egypt, is made. It is now at The Brooklyn Museum of Art, New York.
• c. 2285 BC — Enheduanna, high priestess of the moon god Nanna in Ur, was born.
• c. 2254 BC–2218 BC — Stela of Naram-Sin, probably from Sippar, discovered in Susa (modern Shush, Iran), is made. It is now in Musée du Louvre, Paris.
• c. 2278 BC — Pharaoh Pepi II starts to rule (other date is 2383 BC).
• c. 2215 BC — A Guti army swept down from the Zagros Mountains and defeated the demoralized Akkadian army. They took Agade, the capital of Akkad, and destroyed it thoroughly.
• c. 2300 BC — Metals started to be used in Northern Europe.

(SOURCE)

 

[AV1611VET]

OK, AV, you think the flood happened around 2350 BC. We have very clear evidence of ongoing, complex cultures in Egypt, the Indus Valley, China, and other places in the hundreds of years leading up to that date and continuing on right after that date as if nothing happened at that time.

So, what you are proposing is the following:

There are all these complex cultures in various parts of the world. The great flood comes along and wipes them all out, but somehow leaves in place all kinds of artifacts from those cultures that should have been destroyed. Further, all of the people are destroyed, and then right after the flood, the handful of people left somehow get back to all of those wide-flung cultures, repopulate them, adopt the same language, writing, culture and (here is an odd one) religion as the previous occupants, all quickly enough so that there is not even a blip in the ongoing historical record.

Is that your proposal?

I'd hate to sound like I'm repeating Post 14, but for the record, the Egyptians came from Noah's grandson. So how could the Egyptians have been here before the Flood?

 

[AV1611VET]

And here's a list of things going on during that tumultuous time when all life except what was on the Ark was destroyed!

Nice.

 

[Vance]

I'd hate to sound like I'm repeating Post 14, but for the record, the Egyptians came from Noah's grandson. So how could the Egyptians have been here before the Flood?

That question is begging the question.

Are you just simply denying the evidence that all of that was going on before that time? If so, I think we are done here.

 

[dlamberth]

For the sheer number of times I've claimed this earth is 4.57 billion years old. I'm sure you've seen me say it somewhere.

What we have seen you say is that even though the earth appears to be 4.57 Billion years old, it actually is 6100 years old. That's what started the discussion on "maturity" with out history.

But that's besides the point. I'm still wondering, if what you say is true, why in the world would God send these mixed messages? What's to gain from it? Why the deception? Why is God not being honest and up front with us at all direction?

Basically though, to me it looks your doing nothing more than trying to have it both ways. You realize what Science is telling us but because it conflicts with your religion beliefs your not yet able to admit that the Bible just may be wrong in its creation story.

.

 

[AV1611VET]

That question is begging the question.

Are you just simply denying the evidence that all of that was going on before that time? If so, I think we are done here.

I'm subordinating the "evidence" to the Word of God. As my old signature used to say:

• Where science disagrees with the Bible --- science is wrong.

 

[shevar]

I'd hate to sound like I'm repeating Post 14, but for the record, the Egyptians came from Noah's grandson. So how could the Egyptians have been here before the Flood?

Out of interest;

What does the Bible state about the sumerians in mesotopania or the harrapan civilization in the indus region?

 

[AV1611VET]

What we have seen you say is that even though the earth appears to be 4.57 Billion years old, it actually is 6100 years old.

You have never, ever seen me say this.

 

[AV1611VET]

Out of interest;

What does the Bible state about the sumerians in mesotopania or the harrapan civilization in the indus region?

Nothing by those names.

I know that Nimrod, Noah's great-grandson, founded what some call the Sumerian Empire.

 

[thaumaturgy]

Nice.

Thanks!

People appear to have been quite busy during that time.

 

[shevar]

Nothing by those names.

I know that Nimrod, Noah's great-grandson, founded what some call the Sumerian Empire.

So historians got it all wrong and sumerian society doesn't predate egyptian society by 800 years?

Or did noah first gotten a great grandson and then a grandson and then lived for almost a millenia?

 

[AV1611VET]

So historians got it all wrong and sumerian society doesn't predate egyptian society by 800 years?

If that's what they say, then they're wrong; and there's nothing wrong with being wrong, is there? Or is that a crime?

 

[Vance]

I'm subordinating the "evidence" to the Word of God. As my old signature used to say:

• Where science disagrees with the Bible --- science is wrong.

Ah, I see the problem. You are treating your interpretation of God's Word AS God's Word. That is very prideful of you.

Here is a more humble and modest approach for you to consider:

Where there is a seeming conflict between science and Scripture, then either the interpretation of Scripture is wrong, or the interpretation of the scientific evidence is wrong, or both. I will consider the strength of both interpretations and determine which is more likely to be at fault.

Remember geocentrism.