My, my, my......how the tune changes.....

timothyu · Jan 29, 2021

Yarddog said:
Please show exactly which you refer to.

Surely you are aware of the recent damage done to Dem offices in Seattle and who was behind it when they were arrested, and the news from FBI saying both the RNC and DNC were targeted with bombs. It seems the anarchists are not taking sides (or appearing to make it look that way). The recent image portrayed on the news is revenge on both parties. What remains to be seen is if this is indeed a non-partisan group.

SilverBear · Jan 29, 2021

timothyu said:
So a handful of agitators at both protest were seen to be the cause. Recent info if reliable seems to be showing that agitators at both incidents were not partisan but an outside group against both parties.

participants in the assault on the US Capital on Jan 6 included
Tennessee state Rep. Terri Lynn Weaver (R)
State Sen. Doug Mastriano (R) of Pennsylvania
Rep. Justin Hill (R) of Missouri skipped his own swearing-in ceremony to attend the event.
Rep. Andy Biggs (R) of Arizona
Rep Paul Gosar, (R) of Arizona
Rep Mo Brooks (R) of Alaska

timothyu · Jan 29, 2021

Still think you are playing a team sport do you?

Yarddog · Jan 29, 2021

timothyu said:
Surely you are aware of the recent damage done to Dem offices in Seattle and who was behind it when they were arrested, and the news from FBI saying both the RNC and DNC were targeted with bombs. It seems the anarchists are not taking sides (or appearing to make it look that way). The recent image portrayed on the news is revenge on both parties. What remains to be seen is if this is indeed a non-partisan group.

Yes, far left liberals and far right conservatives become more alike the further they get to the fringes.

ViaCrucis · Jan 29, 2021

Yarddog said:
Yes, far left liberals and far right conservatives become more alike the further they get to the fringes.

Because as it turns out that extremism tends to give birth to violence. From an ethical perspective, what does it matter whether the trigger that killed someone was pulled by someone on the far left or on the far right if regardless the result is absolutely the same: death.

It's why politics can't boil down to basically being nothing more than tribalism. It's easy for me to recognize the evil on the other side, but it is necessary that I recognize and reject evil when it comes from mine.

-CryptoLutheran

timothyu · Jan 29, 2021

Yarddog said:
Yes, far left liberals and far right conservatives become more alike the further they get to the fringes.

Yet this could quite likely be a third group

xser88 · Jan 31, 2021

I went back to check youtube on why the protest in Wisconsin and how civil they were. HUGE difference in the reason for the protest, the characters at the protest and the difference between civility is off the charts. In the Trump protest we had cop killers, this from the group yelling blue lives matter after witnessing an unarmed black killed by police. The insurgents in the January 6 protest can be seen beating police officers with an American flag pole, macing police, punching police, a firefighter throw a fire extinguisher and hit a cop. They murdered a police officer. These criminals are closer to those armed protesters who entered the Michigan state capitol demanding an end to their coronavirus lockdown protective orders, those were some other dangerous misguided individuals.

timothyu · Jan 31, 2021

xser88 said:
These criminals are closer to those armed protesters who entered the Michigan state capitol demanding an end to their coronavirus lockdown protective orders, those were some other dangerous misguided individuals.

Or perhaps just the same anarchists that have been attacking both the Dems and Reps. Pity some want to claim a third party is only the opposition instead of the reality these anarchists are attacking both sides, i.e. the government of the US.

FreeinChrist · Jan 31, 2021

xser88 said:
I went back to check youtube on why the protest in Wisconsin and how civil they were. HUGE difference in the reason for the protest, the characters at the protest and the difference between civility is off the charts. In the Trump protest we had cop killers, this from the group yelling blue lives matter after witnessing an unarmed black killed by police. The insurgents in the January 6 protest can be seen beating police officers with an American flag pole, macing police, punching police, a firefighter throw a fire extinguisher and hit a cop. They murdered a police officer. These criminals are closer to those armed protesters who entered the Michigan state capitol demanding an end to their coronavirus lockdown protective orders, those were some other dangerous misguided individuals.

Yep, I looked back at the protest in Wisconsin, and did not see the violence of Jan. 6th

US left finds its voice over Wisconsin attack on union rights

It came after 12 days of continuous protest by teachers, students, steelworkers, pensioners, nurses and a host of others. There are placards proclaiming Cops for Labor, even though the police, with the fire service, are exempt from the anti-union measures.

"We have to stand with our brothers and sisters," said Dane county deputy sheriff Jim Brigham, 41, standing on one of the capitol's snow-covered walls addressing about 50 fellow officers opposed to the bill.

He sees it as part of a systematic campaign by conservatives, backed financially by the billionaire Koch brothers, to dismantle the unions. "They are trying to take this state. If it falls, others will fall too," Brigham said. Ohio, Indiana and other states are at various stages of similar anti-union legislation.......

Inside the capitol building there are thousands more protesters. The police have strung yellow tape between marble pillars to cut off access to the debating chambers and key offices. Six policemen bar entry to the governor's office. But almost all the rest of the building is in the hands of the protesters. The atmosphere is part Glastonbury, part commune, part polite midwest. Drummers beat out rhythms all day long to chants of Union Power and renditions of the Star-Spangled Banner.

Image from the entry - not a debating area:

Image of the crowd outside - no guns:

In contrast, on Jan 6th:

Proud Boys intended to kill Mike Pence and Nancy Pelosi, FBI witness says

2 women charged in Capitol riot said they were 'looking' for Pelosi 'to shoot her in the friggin' brain'

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see a difference in peaceful protest and a violent insurgent riot.

Robin Mauro · Jan 31, 2021

civilwarbuff said:
Flashback: Nancy Pelosi praised unionists storming Wisconsin State Capitol
House Speaker Nancy Pelosi has gone on record praising the storming of the Capitol as an "impressive show of democracy in action" -- the 2011 invasion of the Madison, Wis., state capitol, that is.
.....and the hypocrisy just keeps on coming.......Unity?.....ehhh, what's that?

The whole basis for your post is pants-on-fire false. The Wisconsin protests were peaceful, unlike the capitol insurrection. Please learn to check your facts....politifact, Snopes, fact-check...
And please find news sources that are truthful, such as NPR and PBS. These lies are destroying our country.
Satan is the father of lies.
PolitiFact - Wisconsin officials claim cleaning up the state Capitol will cost $7.5 million

Robin Mauro · Jan 31, 2021

Your post, as well as the original post here, are based on a pants-on-fire lie. Please learn to check your facts, politifact, snopes, fact check...
The Wisconsin protests were peaceful, whereas the insurrection at the capitol was not.
These lies are destroying our country.
And as a liberal (on most issues) I assure you, as a Christian, there would be no possible way I would have ever supported Trump, under any circumstance, and I doubt Pelosi would have either, but I am not her and can only speak for myself.
Trump lied over and over about Obama ( the birther movement), lied about the "central park 5", and continued to lie about these young boys even after they were cleared by DNA evidence; he bragged about sexually assaulting women, cheated on all his wives...
His lies never ceased.
Satan is the father of lies. Trump is antithetical to Christ and no Christian should support him.
"It is because of you the name of God is blasphemied among the gentiles (or unbelievers)."
Our Lord Christ

PolitiFact - Wisconsin officials claim cleaning up the state Capitol will cost $7.5 million

RestoreTheJoy · Feb 3, 2021

Yarddog said:
Explain how Wisconsin residents walking into their state Capitol building, legally, equates to the mob that illegally attacked the US Capitol building, assaulted and killing police, in order to steal the Presidential election for Trump.

Thousands showed up to hear a speech. They did. Then 99.9% left the area to go home, a couple hundred walked to the Capitol, and finally about 20 or fewer actually broke into the Capitol building. Then some others came in after them, most of them just standing around and taking video. A few breached areas they should not have entered and some damage and violence occurred.

Criminal actions were filed against those to whom those charged pertained. That's how it works.

No one broke in "in order to steal the Presidential election". That's ridiculous.

A few criminals did what criminals do. Commit crimes. Arrest them.

Same should have held true for the riots all year, but somehow a lot of that was ignored. Arrest criminals. Full stop.

rambot · Feb 3, 2021

civilwarbuff said:
Flashback: Nancy Pelosi praised unionists storming Wisconsin State Capitol
House Speaker Nancy Pelosi has gone on record praising the storming of the Capitol as an "impressive show of democracy in action" -- the 2011 invasion of the Madison, Wis., state capitol, that is.
.....and the hypocrisy just keeps on coming.......Unity?.....ehhh, what's that?

We're they armed?
Did people die?
Was it an insurrection?
Were they attempting to overrun the government?

Are you desperate to create a comparison that is a bit tenuous?

And the typical agreement of "winners" just underlines the lack of research some posters are willing to do to make a solid point.

FreeinChrist · Feb 3, 2021

RestoreTheJoy said:
Thousands showed up to hear a speech. They did. Then 99.9% left the area to go home, a couple hundred walked to the Capitol, and finally about 20 or fewer actually broke into the Capitol building. Then some others came in after them, most of them just standing around and taking video. A few breached areas they should not have entered and some damage and violence occurred.

uh huh

Thousands walked to the Capitol. More than 20 broke in.

Criminal actions were filed against those to whom those charged pertained. That's how it works.

No one broke in "in order to steal the Presidential election". That's ridiculous.

Yes, they were trying to steal the election away from Biden who won. The electoral votes from the 50 states were on a table in the Senate and removed as they removed the Senators. The insurrectionists got into the chamber:

The riot was stupid. Each state has backup information on the electoral votes. The mob was never going to succeed.

What did Trump do while the insurrectionist mob committed crimes? Nothing initially. Three hours into it, he did a video promoting his big lie that he won, saying he loved the rioters but telling them to home.

But there was planning in advance.
see Insurrection Timeline: Latest Updates

Nov. 10, 2020: Miller embeds three fierce Trump loyalists as top Defense Department officials: Kash Patel (former aide to Rep. Devin Nunes (R-CA)), retired army Gen. Anthony Tata (pro-Trump Fox News pundit), and Ezra Cohen-Watnick (former assistant to Trump’s first national security adviser, Mike Flynn).

At such a late date in Trump’s presidency, many ask, why the shake-up at the Department of Defense? We may be learning the answer........

As the attack unfolds, Trump is initially pleased and disregards aides pleading with him to intercede. Sen. Ben Sasse (R-NE) later says that, according to Trump aides, he is “delighted,” while “walking around the White House confused about why other people on his team [are]n’t as excited.” Trump initially rebuffs and resists requests to mobilize the National Guard.......

3:29 p.m.: Governor Northam announces mobilization of Virginia’s National Guard. But there’s a hitch. Federal law requires Defense Department authorization before any state’s National Guard can cross the state border onto federal land in DC. That approval doesn’t come until almost two hours later.

(DoD Memo) 3:47 p.m. Governor Hogan mobilizes his state’s National Guard and 200 state troopers.

The Defense Department “repeatedly denies” Hogan’s request to deploy the National Guard at the Capitol. As he awaits approval, House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer (D-MD) calls Hogan from the undisclosed bunker to which he, Speaker Pelosi, and Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer (D-NY) have been evacuated. Hoyer pleads for assistance, saying that the Capitol Police is overwhelmed and there is no federal law enforcement presence.

4:17 p.m.: Trump tweets a video telling rioters, “I know your pain, I know you’re hurt. We had an election that was stolen from us. It was a landslide election and everyone knows it, especially the other side… It’s a very tough period of time. There’s never been a time like this where such a thing happened where they could take it away from all of us — from me, from you, from our country. This was a fraudulent election, but we can’t play into the hands of these people. We have to have peace. So go home. We love you. You’re very special. You’ve seen what happens. You see the way others are treated that are so bad and so evil.”

(DoD Memo) 4:18 p.m.: Miller gives voice approval to notifying surrounding states to muster and be prepared to mobilize their National Guard personnel.

read the timeline

In time, when the full story is put together, it will be chilling to see how much planning went into that riot.

Hazelelponi · Feb 3, 2021

civilwarbuff said:
As a democrat did you think he would say anything else?

It's about the democrats total domination of the American people - not about right or wrong - the hypocrisy is so astounding this is my only conclusion.

They have changed the national motto from "One nation under God" to "freedom for me but not for thee"..

RestoreTheJoy · Feb 3, 2021

FreeinChrist said:
Yes, they were trying to steal the election away from Biden who won. The electoral votes from the 50 states were on a table in the Senate and removed as they removed the Senators. The insurrectionists got into the chamber:
...

The riot was stupid. Each state has backup information on the electoral votes. The mob was never going to succeed.

What did Trump do while the insurrectionist mob committed crimes? Nothing initially. Three hours into it, he did a video promoting his big lie that he won, saying he loved the rioters but telling them to home.

But there was planning in advance.
see Insurrection Timeline: Latest Updates

Nov. 10, 2020: Miller embeds three fierce Trump loyalists as top Defense Department officials: Kash Patel (former aide to Rep. Devin Nunes (R-CA)), retired army Gen. Anthony Tata (pro-Trump Fox News pundit), and Ezra Cohen-Watnick (former assistant to Trump’s first national security adviser, Mike Flynn).

At such a late date in Trump’s presidency, many ask, why the shake-up at the Department of Defense? We may be learning the answer........

As the attack unfolds, Trump is initially pleased and disregards aides pleading with him to intercede. Sen. Ben Sasse (R-NE) later says that, according to Trump aides, he is “delighted,” while “walking around the White House confused about why other people on his team [are]n’t as excited.” Trump initially rebuffs and resists requests to mobilize the National Guard.......

3:29 p.m.: Governor Northam announces mobilization of Virginia’s National Guard. But there’s a hitch. Federal law requires Defense Department authorization before any state’s National Guard can cross the state border onto federal land in DC. That approval doesn’t come until almost two hours later.

(DoD Memo) 3:47 p.m. Governor Hogan mobilizes his state’s National Guard and 200 state troopers.

The Defense Department “repeatedly denies” Hogan’s request to deploy the National Guard at the Capitol. As he awaits approval, House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer (D-MD) calls Hogan from the undisclosed bunker to which he, Speaker Pelosi, and Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer (D-NY) have been evacuated. Hoyer pleads for assistance, saying that the Capitol Police is overwhelmed and there is no federal law enforcement presence.

4:17 p.m.: Trump tweets a video .”

4:18 p.m.: Miller gives voice approval to notifying surrounding states to muster and be prepared to mobilize their National Guard personnel.

Way too much pure speculation there about all the "planning". I've not seen this much spin in one post about what actually occurred.

It all happened in ONE afternoon, for a few hours, after a speech. No one was "embedded" - players changed, as they often do. The National Guard came, after some initial confusion.

The criminals were arrested.

Everyone else went home the same day.

If you are not horrified at the previous 10 months of rioting, insurrection, fires, looting, buildings damaged, cops killed, and a literal takeover of the city center in Oregon, but you are horrified at this single afternoon where they took a page from the same playbook, you might need to stop watching CNN.

It's just not how you presented it.

FreeinChrist · Feb 3, 2021

Hazelelponi said:
It's about the democrats total domination of the American people - not about right or wrong - the hypocrisy is so astounding this is my only conclusion.

They have changed the national motto from "One nation under God" to "freedom for me but not for thee"..

No it isn't. Those insurrectionists were trying to overthrow an election, and those that voted against certifying the election results were trying to throw out the votes of 81 million Americans. Those insurrectionists wanted it "my way or the highway" and throwing out democracy, instead of respecting democracy.

Hazelelponi · Feb 3, 2021

FreeinChrist said:
No it isn't. Those insurrectionists were trying to overthrow an election, and those that voted against certifying the election results were trying to throw out the votes of 81 million Americans. Those insurrectionists wanted it "my way or the highway" and throwing out democracy, instead of respecting democracy.

That building is called "the people's house" for a reason, and the people in it are our "representatives"... they wanted heard, by their representatives, in their own house...

It was a protest that turned sadly violent, not an insurrection...

The only "insurrection" is the new military occupation of our capital by the dems that better resembles occupied Sarajevo than a free nation. And those being overthrown are "the people."

FreeinChrist · Feb 3, 2021

RestoreTheJoy said:
Way too much pure speculation there about all the "planning". I've not seen this much spin in one post about what actually occurred.

It all happened in ONE afternoon, for a few hours, after a speech. No one was "embedded" - players changed, as they often do. The National Guard came, after some initial confusion.

The criminals were arrested.

Everyone else went home the same day.

I would say your earlier post was really rewriting what happened. Only 20 people broke in? right.
Many criminals were allowed to walk away and the FBI has had to hunt them down and is still hunting. It doesn't matter that it was in ONE afternoon - there were people hunting for Pense with "Hang Mike Pense" chants, and there were threats stated toward other legislators and they were looking for electoral votes.

And yeah, there was a lot of problems in regards to the National Guard, not just "some confusion". Talk about spin.

Maryland Governor Says Pentagon ‘Repeatedly Denied’ Approval To Send National Guard To Capitol

Maryland Gov. Larry Hogan said Thursday that the Department of Defense “repeatedly denied” requests to authorize deployment of Maryland’s National Guard troops to help quell violence at the Capitol on Wednesday.......

House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer called Hogan from an “undisclosed bunker” and were “pleading” with him for assistance from his state and national forces, the governor said.......

As to why there was so much of problem:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...879f44-5f69-11eb-ac8f-4ae05557196e_story.html

The commander of the D.C. National Guard said the Pentagon restricted his authority ahead of the riot at the U.S. Capitol, requiring higher-level sign-off to respond that cost time as the events that day spiraled out of control.

Local commanders typically have the power to take military action on their own to save lives or prevent significant property damage in an urgent situation when there isn’t enough time to obtain approval from headquarters.

But Maj. Gen. William J. Walker, the commanding general of the District of Columbia National Guard, said the Pentagon essentially took that power and other authorities away from him ahead of the short-lived insurrection on Jan. 6. That meant he couldn’t immediately roll out troops when he received a panicked phone call from the Capitol Police chief warning that rioters were about to enter the U.S. Capitol.

“All military commanders normally have immediate response authority to protect property, life, and in my case, federal functions — federal property and life,” Walker said in an interview. “But in this instance I did not have that authority.”

Why did the Pentegon take that power away?

If you are not horrified at the previous 10 months of rioting, insurrection, fires, looting, buildings damaged, cops killed, and a literal takeover of the city center in Oregon, but you are horrified at this single afternoon where they took a page from the same playbook, you might need to stop watching CNN.
It's just not how you presented it.

This isn't about me personally and it is wise to keep to the topic. I never approved of the looting this summer, nor of much of the police response to the many who were peacefully protesting. I didn't approve of how George Floyd was killed either.

But whatever happened, it was no excuse for trying to throw out the votes of millions of Americans over a big lie that was never prove.

FreeinChrist · Feb 3, 2021

Hazelelponi said:
That building is called "the people's house" for a reason, and the people in it are our "representatives"... they wanted heard, by their representatives, in their own house...

It was a protest that turned sadly violent, not an insurrection...

The only "insurrection" is the new military occupation of our capital by the dems that resembles occupied Sarajevo - not a free nation.

The "people's house" phrase gets overused. Those folks had NO right to steal and vandalize offices and threaten to hang or kill or harm and beat officers and kill an officer, or even to break in at all.
IF it is the "people's house', then it is also the house of a great many Americans who were appalled at the behavior of the mob.

The attempted insurrection was carried out by The Oathkeepers, the Proud Boys, the Boogaloo Bois, Qanon conspiracy theorists and other Trump supporters.

IF Trump supporters wanted to claim the Big Lie was in fact true, they needed to pursue legal means - oh yeah, they did. 60 plus times. No grounds to overturn the votes of millions.

In Court, Trump's Lawyers Aren't Claiming 'Massive' Fraud

Nearly two weeks after the election was called for President-elect Joe Biden, Donald Trump and his legal team continue to advance spurious and dangerous claims that the election was “rigged.” In a press conference on Nov. 19, Trump’s personal attorney Rudy Giuliani called the election a “massive fraud,” while an attorney for the Trump campaign, Sidney Powell, alleged without evidence a wide-ranging scheme perpetrated by “massive influence of communist money.” She also appeared to suggest a revolution, comparing this moment to “the 1775 of our generation and beyond.”

But Trump and his allies’ public allegations stand in stark contrast to what his lawyers are actually claiming— bound by professional ethics rules—in election-related cases in court. In three separate lawsuits in Pennsylvania and cases in Arizona and Nevada, Trump’s lawyers have jettisoned sweeping claims of fraud, instead focusing on relatively small-bore complaints......

Pennsylvania
In a recent Pennsylvania federal case, Giuliani alleged “widespread, nationwide voter fraud” in his opening remarks. But under questioning from the judge, he retreated. “This is not a fraud case,” Giuliani later admitted. In the same case, Trump lawyer Linda Kearns said explicitly that she is “not proceeding” on allegations of fraud.

Hmmm ......so when there is a consequence to lying, Guiliani and Kearns don't claim fraud. lol

My, my, my......how the tune changes.....

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