My mothers children

[LittleLambofJesus]

But what does scripture teach about Christ's nativity and flesh?

Bingo. 'Tis a warrant for in depth picture of the womb and events thereof when God sowed His seed in man.
Some ask "How did man become God?" Wrong question. "How did GOD become MAN?"

And bingo back at ya

The Jews of today [and perhaps many Christians] still find that to be a mystery to this very day

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.

 

[James4_14]

"As orthodoxy and tradition has it.....".

Something a half a bubble out of plumb. "The shifting sands of human speculation".

 

[Standing Up]

"As orthodoxy and tradition has it.....".

Something a half a bubble out of plumb. "The shifting sands of human speculation".

That's why it's so important to use scripture first and foremost.

On the question of the OP, who are the brothers of Jesus, it is clear what scripture says, BUT, it is also clear there were two traditions that operated at that time. So, it helps us to unravel the situation back then.

1) sons of Joseph/Mary (scripture and tradition)
2) sons of old Joseph/previous wife (docetice Protoevangelium of James tradition).

Origen shows the two traditions clashing. He chose the docetic tradition and tells us why---to preserve the myth that flesh is evil. He goes so far in his belief by mutilating himself.

"
And depreciating the whole of what appeared to be His nearest kindred, they said [in Scripture], “Is not His mother called Mary? And His brethren, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? And His sisters, are they not all with us?”52635263 Matt. xiii. 55, 56. They thought, then, that He was the son of Joseph and Mary. But some say, basing it on a tradition in the Gospel according to Peter,5264
5264 The Gospel of Peter, of which a fragment was recovered in 1886 and published in 1892. as it is entitled, or “The Book of James,”52655265 Protevangelium Jacobi, c. 9.
that the brethren of Jesus were sons of Joseph by a former wife, whom he married before Mary. Now those who say so wish to preserve the honour of Mary in virginity to the end, so that that body of hers which was appointed to minister to the Word which said, “The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee,”52665266 Luke i. 35. might not know intercourse with a man after that the Holy Ghost came into her and the power from on high overshadowed her. And I think it in harmony with reason that Jesus was the first-fruit among men of the purity which consists in chastity, and Mary among women; for it were not pious to ascribe to any other than to her the first-fruit of virginity. And James is he whom Paul says in the Epistle to the Galatians that he saw, “But other of the Apostles saw I none, save James the Lord’s brother "
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf09.xvi.ii.iii.xvii.html

It just doesn't get any clearer than that.

 

[Standing Up]

I hinted a few posts ago about what Tertulian had to say about His birth from Mary. Perhaps we'll get to that scripture-tradition.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

"As orthodoxy and tradition has it....."

Something a half a bubble out of plumb. "The shifting sands of human speculation".[/quote]

Brings to mind this passage in Matthew:

NKJV) Matthew 7:26 "But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand:

 

[James4_14]

Origen shows the two traditions clashing. He chose the docetic tradition and tells us why---to preserve the myth that flesh is evil. He goes so far in his belief by mutilating himself.

I have read some on the Docetic view and have never have even offered a hint that I support thier views. There was much read into what was said by me from certain....uuuhhhh....shall we say....DETRACTORS?

There are many creeds out there and you will find that many of those overstate their position and create the delmma of contradiction.

 

[Standing Up]

I have read some on the Docetic view and have never have even offered a hint that I support thier views. There was much read into what was said by me from certain....uuuhhhh....shall we say....DETRACTORS?

There are many creeds out there and you will find that many of those overstate their position and create the delmma of contradiction.

There were different traditions. Most are fairly surprised to find this out. I know I was. And most are even more surprised to find out the sources and surprised to learn what was really being argued. In this example, it was either Christ had flesh and a normal birth (sons of Joseph/Mary) OR Christ did not have flesh and a normal birth (sons of old Joseph/previous wife).

200 years later, what were diametrically opposed views (contradictions) had been amalgamated (lukewarm) into Christ had flesh, an unnatural birth, Mary remained a virgin, and the brothers were cousins. Those very early Christians, in today's lingo, would exclaim, say what?

There is the still lingering smoke of the idea that Mary gave birth through the east gate (her side); for those with ears to ear, it still hints at the battle from long ago over the faith once delivered.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

There were different traditions. Most are fairly surprised to find this out. I know I was. And most are even more surprised to find out the sources and surprised to learn what was really being argued. In this example, it was either Christ had flesh and a normal birth (sons of Joseph/Mary) OR Christ did not have flesh and a normal birth (sons of old Joseph/previous wife).

200 years later, what were diametrically opposed views (contradictions) had been amalgamated (lukewarm) into Christ had flesh, an unnatural birth, Mary remained a virgin, and the brothers were cousins. Those very early Christians, in today's lingo, would exclaim, say what?

There is the still lingering smoke of the idea that Mary gave birth through the east gate (her side); for those with ears to ear, it still hints at the battle from long ago over the faith once delivered.

Ezekiel's mention of the east gate in the OT is pretty interesting

NKJV) Ezekiel 10:19 And the cherubim lifted their wings and mounted up from the earth in my sight. When they went out, the wheels [were] beside them;
and they stood at the door of the east gate of the LORD's house, and the glory of the God of Israel [was] above them.

Ezekiel 11:1 Then the Spirit lifted me up and brought me to the East Gate of the LORD's house, which faces eastward;
and there at the door of the gate were twenty-five men, among whom I saw Jaazaniah the son of Azzur, and Pelatiah the son of Benaiah, princes of the people.

 

[Standing Up]

CCatechism

499 The deepening of faith in the virginal motherhood led the Church to confess Mary's real and perpetual virginity even in the act of giving birth to the Son of God made man.154 In fact, Christ's birth "did not diminish his mother's virginal integrity but sanctified it."155 And so the liturgy of the Church celebrates Mary as Aeiparthenos, the "Ever-virgin".156
500 Against this doctrine the objection is sometimes raised that the Bible mentions brothers and sisters of Jesus.157 The Church has always understood these passages as not referring to other children of the Virgin Mary. In fact James and Joseph, "brothers of Jesus", are the sons of another Mary, a disciple of Christ, whom St. Matthew significantly calls "the other Mary".158 They are close relations of Jesus, according to an Old Testament expression.159
Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 1 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 2 ARTICLE 3 PARAGRAPH 2


It is clear that the Church (be it early RC/EO or the Church of 1800 years ago) has not always understood the brothers and sisters this way. If the Roman Catholic Church is dated from Jerome, then yes.

1) sons of Joseph/Mary (scripture/tradition)
2) sons of old Joseph/previous wife (Proto of James, typically EO maintains this view)
3) sons as cousins (typically RC maintains this view)

If anyone is interested, we can continue the conversation about our Lord's birth from Mary as scripture/tradition saw it.

 

[Standing Up]

No one?