My Messiah isn't a sinner

[ImaginaryVoyager]

I've never really understood the use of the word "sodomy" with regard to homosexuality. Is there Biblical support for the idea that homosexuality was the only, or even the main, sin for which Sodom was supposedly destroyed?

No. There is no biblical validation for the contention that homosexuality was the reason Sodom was destroyed. The Bible does tell why Sodom was destroyed, and the reason is:

Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.

I suppose one could argue that homosexuality was one of the 'detestable things' mentioned, but there is no Biblical support for this.

 

[Catherineanne]

We cannot fully comprehend God's wrath because we do not fully grasp the utter filthiness and rebellious nature of sin. To paraphrase a great puritan preacher, in every act of sin we remove God from the throne, kick Him aside as filth, and place ourselves on the throne. We rebel as Lucifer rebelled.

That is why, unless the Blood of Jesus Christ covers our sins, we will burn in hell for ever and ever as vessels of God's perfect judgment. God may seem "harsh" to mere men, but He is Holy!

It is not just the rage behind your words that I find confusing, but also the rather distasteful imagery. This reveals a lot more of your heart than I think you realise.

When a person sins, to me that is a great shame because they turn from the light into the dark, but it is nothing to do with 'kicking God aside as filth'.

God cannot be kicked, let alone as filth. So who exactly do you mean when you visualise someone being kicked aside as filth? Is this you? Someone you know? It is most certainly not God, because we cannot even look upon him and live, let alone give him a good kicking.

Hell is not about burning for eternity. Burning for eternity is a light option, compared with being separated, either in this world or the next, from God's lovingkindness, mercy and compassion. Either for ourselves or for our fellow creatures.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Amen Catherineanne.

 

[Catherineanne]

If Jesus was a sinner then he would not be my messiah. He overcame every sinful temptation:

He did not commit adultery.
He did not commit fornication.
He did not have gay sex.
He did not drink or do drugs.
He didn't lie, steal, murder, say anything profane.

Just sinlessly perfect -- that's the Jesus I believe in.

Amen and amen

There is an old saying that we create God in our own image. Maybe this is what you have done. In which case this standard is not for Our Lord, but for yourself, and it is going to be a very hard one to maintain. Maybe that is why you need to make the punishment so dire, because you need a high fence around your desire to be human.

The reason why Christ is my Saviour is not because he is without sin. I don't really care about sin, in him or anyone else. It is because he loved us more than we have ever been loved before, and he gave his life so that we might live.

If along the way he had a couple of drinks, and maybe even got squiffy once in a while, then that is fine with me. He was fully divine, but also fully human, and to me anyone who is fully human has to have one over the eight at least once in his life. And maybe the other minor sins too. Not the murder or adultery kind, but maybe the lesser kind.

Doesn't make him any less God to me.

 

[MercyBurst]

There is an old saying that we create God in our own image. Maybe this is what you have done. In which case this standard is not for Our Lord, but for yourself, and it is going to be a very hard one to maintain. Maybe that is why you need to make the punishment so dire, because you need a high fence around your desire to be human.

The reason why Christ is my Saviour is not because he is without sin. I don't really care about sin, in him or anyone else. It is because he loved us more than we have ever been loved before, and he gave his life so that we might live.

If along the way he had a couple of drinks, and maybe even got squiffy once in a while, then that is fine with me. He was fully divine, but also fully human, and to me anyone who is fully human has to have one over the eight at least once in his life. And maybe the other minor sins too. Not the murder or adultery kind, but maybe the lesser kind.

Doesn't make him any less God to me.

It is my sincere understanding from the bible that Jesus is a propitiation for our sins.

Romans 3:25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God

Yes, the price for our sin was very high, paid for through the blood of Christ.

Sin might not matter to you or to me but it is a dead serious matter to God.

In the end, sin is fatal:

James 1:15 sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Jesus does not want us to die, and death can not reign over Jesus because he did not sin.


Romans 5:17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

3 Romans 5:21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Hence if Jesus was a sinner, then He would not have the power to give us life, because sin leads to death, not life.

Life is important to me. Hence the Jesus I believe in is sinless though I sin often myself.

This is why I believe Jesus is sinless -- because I believe the bible is true, and therefore I believe Jesus has the power to resurrect the dead.

Besides the Bible says He was sinless anyway in 1st Peter II:

21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye shouldfollow his steps:

22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
Isa 53:9

 

[KCDAD]

If Jesus was a sinner then he would not be my messiah. He overcame every sinful temptation:

He did not commit adultery.
He did not commit fornication.
He did not have gay sex.
He did not drink or do drugs.
He didn't lie, steal, murder, say anything profane.

Just sinlessly perfect -- that's the Jesus I believe in.

Amen and amen

So if one doesn't do those things he would be sinless also? What, in your mind, is sin? Is it something we do or don't do? Is it something we think or don't think? Is it something we are born or do we achieve it? (Anger is not sinful, nor is attacking someone with a whip... right? Hating one's parents is not a sin either, right?)

David was messiah and he was definitely a sinner by your definition. He may not be your messiah, but God sure liked him alot. Saul was also annointed... that is what messiah means, you know.

 

[Catherineanne]

It is my sincere understanding from the bible that Jesus is a propitiation for our sins.

Mine too. But not because he did no wrong, but because there was no wrong in him to start with. If at every moment of Christ's life his focus was on God, and on choosing to do his will, then there was no room for sin to get hold of him.

Same with us. If we live our lives in a state of perpetual prayer and focus on God, we cannot sin. Not easy, though, and perhaps not possible, but this is what Christ did, and the example he gives us. So, for example, if you get angry then it may or may not be sinful. But if you get angry when in a state of prayer and focus on God, it cannot be sinful, because the anger you feel will be shared by God, and it will be anger at the pain and suffering in his creation.

The only way for Christ to sin would have been for him to make a conscious choice to do so, as satan tried to convince him to. We sin without even realising it. He would have had to choose openly and consciously to sin, and he did not ever make that choice.

 

[BillR]

We cannot fully comprehend God's wrath because we do not fully grasp the utter filthiness and rebellious nature of sin. To paraphrase a great puritan preacher, in every act of sin we remove God from the throne, kick Him aside as filth, and place ourselves on the throne. We rebel as Lucifer rebelled.

That is why, unless the Blood of Jesus Christ covers our sins, we will burn in hell for ever and ever as vessels of God's perfect judgment. God may seem "harsh" to mere men, but He is Holy!

Well Said !!!!!

 

[MercyBurst]

Mine too. But not because he did no wrong, but because there was no wrong in him to start with. If at every moment of Christ's life his focus was on God, and on choosing to do his will, then there was no room for sin to get hold of him.

Same with us. If we live our lives in a state of perpetual prayer and focus on God, we cannot sin. Not easy, though, and perhaps not possible, but this is what Christ did, and the example he gives us. So, for example, if you get angry then it may or may not be sinful. But if you get angry when in a state of prayer and focus on God, it cannot be sinful, because the anger you feel will be shared by God, and it will be anger at the pain and suffering in his creation.

The only way for Christ to sin would have been for him to make a conscious choice to do so, as satan tried to convince him to. We sin without even realising it. He would have had to choose openly and consciously to sin, and he did not ever make that choice.

Jesus never sinned, but we do:

John 1:9 If we say we have not sinned the truth is not in us.

and Romans says: ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Not just some of us, but ALL of us.

 

[UberLutheran]

Nope, afraid not. God's wrath is not sin -- it's righteous indignation.

If it's "righteous indignation", why did God repent of the evil He had pronounced upon Jerusalem (Jeremiah 26:13), and why did God repent of the evil He was going to do to Nineveh (Jonah 3:10)?

Something which cannot do evil has no reason to repent.

 

[UberLutheran]

I really could care less whether or not Jesus was "a sinner".

According to the definitions of "sin" used by the Pharisees and Sadducees, Jesus was indeed a sinner because He intentionally and willfully broke the Mosaic Law.

Jesus also demonstrated far more love and compassion than any of the Pharisees or Sadducces -- either of His period, or the ones who are living now: you know, the ones who expect others to obey "the Law" but don't obey it themselves (Romans 2:1-4).

 

[Blackguard_]

Something which cannot do evil has no reason to repent.

Welcome back Uberlutheran

1. Doesn't 'repent' simply mean 'to turn" as to to change your mind? That is, you could 'repent' of doing something good or morally neutral.

2. Doesn't evil in the OT often mean "calaminity" and not necessarily moral evil? For example, inflicting calaminty on Nineveh as a judgement for sins?

"repenting of the infliction of a just punishment" is also known as "mercy".

 

[UberLutheran]

Welcome back Uberlutheran

1. Doesn't 'repent' simply mean 'to turn" as to to change your mind? That is, you could 'repent' of doing something good or morally neutral.

2. Doesn't evil in the OT often mean "calaminity" and not necessarily moral evil? For example, inflicting calaminty on Nineveh as a judgement for sins?

"repenting of the infliction of a just punishment" is also known as "mercy".

Oh, I agree with you. I was trying to make a point with regards to my original comment, but I know where you're coming from and I agree.

 

[UberLutheran]

Jesus didn't lie, steal, panhandle, have gay sex, fornicate, drink wine, commit adultery, have a moment of lust, do drugs, murder, say anything profane [add as many things to the list as we want]

I [general use of the term - not a specific "I"] don't lie, steal, panhandle, gave gay sex, fornicate, drink wine, commit adultery, have a moment of lust, do drugs, murder, say anything profane [add as many things to the list as we want as long as it equals the first list]

Therefore I [general use of the term - not a specific "I"] am righteous enough for Jesus (but you're not).

Which is just exactly what Paul was talking about in Romans 2 and 3 and the entire book of Galatians about people who rely on works rather than faith to attain righteousness before God.

 

[Najdorf]

So you believe sin is something you do? Jesus did not "do" bad things? Is that what you meant?

I am a sinner like everyone else in the world. Jesus never sinned and that was the main point. The true difference between a Christian and an occultist is that a Christian don't pride themselves of their sins whereas the occultist gloat in their sins.

 

[KCDAD]

I am a sinner like everyone else in the world. Jesus never sinned and that was the main point. The true difference between a Christian and an occultist is that a Christian don't pride themselves of their sins whereas the occultist gloat in their sins.

Do you just quote dogma or do you have some idea of what you mean?

You use that word sin like it has some secret meaning only you know. In reality, it appears you have no idea what it means. Occultists gloat in their sins? What does that mean?

How could you possibly know everybody in the world is a sinner? What about that fetus aborted, or the baby that died in birth? What about the infant left to die in the garbage or toilet, abandoned by its mother? What is their sin? Admit it. You have no idea what "sin" is or what you mean when you use the word. Tell me what Jesus never did that these sinners did do?

 

[kiwimac]

According to the religious authorities of the time, Jesus was a glutton and drunkard, he quite obviously fellowshipped with those who broke the mosaic laws.

From their point of view he was a sinner and a deliberate sinner at that.

 

[Catherineanne]

I really could care less whether or not Jesus was "a sinner".

According to the definitions of "sin" used by the Pharisees and Sadducees, Jesus was indeed a sinner because He intentionally and willfully broke the Mosaic Law.

From which we learn that sin is not breaking Mosaic law. Sin is taking one's focus off God, and his will for our lives. If you keep your eyes on God and his will, then the Mosaic law becomes a matter of secondary importance, because, as Our Lord rightly said, the law was made for man, not man for the law.

But his transgressing of such a law cannot really be called intentional and willful. I think there was nothing willful about it, because that implies an act of his own choice and will, rather than God's. Christ's every action was in conformity with the will of God, and therein lies his absence of sin.

Christ did not sin because he kept his focus on God, and his will in submission to God's will. And God, in case people have not noticed, is not subject to law, whether Mosaic or otherwise.

 

[uberd00b]

I have heard some say that Jesus was fully human (or both fully human and part/wholly God) in order to fulfill the sacrifice (or possibly another theological reason which I don't recall). If Jesus was fully human, surely he would have to have sinned?

Perhaps somebody can recall this doctrine? I'm tempted to say it was arianism, but it's been a while...

 

[Im_A]

From which we learn that sin is not breaking Mosaic law. Sin is taking one's focus off God, and his will for our lives. If you keep your eyes on God and his will, then the Mosaic law becomes a matter of secondary importance, because, as Our Lord rightly said, the law was made for man, not man for the law.

But his transgressing of such a law cannot really be called intentional and willful. I think there was nothing willful about it, because that implies an act of his own choice and will, rather than God's. Christ's every action was in conformity with the will of God, and therein lies his absence of sin.

Christ did not sin because he kept his focus on God, and his will in submission to God's will. And God, in case people have not noticed, is not subject to law, whether Mosaic or otherwise.

while i agree with you, i'm guessing that the Pharisees and Saduccees saw the Will of God as the Mosaic Law, since they believed it was given to Moses directly from God.

it's pretty easy to see in the light that the law is the Will of God that Jesus would have sinned tremendously becuase everything that could have been seen as a transgression from Christ was done willingfully by Christ.

it is only us Christians that have a different view of what the Will of God is to give us the reason to believe that Christ never sinned. or the view of Trinity.