My latest chart (number 3)

[Davy]

When you talk about the "first beast", then you have to consider that vision is with 42 months left in the seven years.

There is only one head (of the seven heads) having the mouth like a lion, that does the evil speaking during the 42 months. That head is the mortally wounded, but healed head - the 7th king head - who is supposed continue the short space - the 42 months.

His kingdom will control the territories of the former kingdoms of Babylon, Medes-Persians, Greeks. The ten kings, the ten EU leaders. His kingdom the EU.

Rev.13:1-2 = 1st beast, a kingdom with ten horns, seven heads, and ten crowns.

Rev.13:2 "dragon" = Satan himself, as defined in Rev.12:9.

Rev.13:3 = 1st beast kingdom, one of its seven heads is wounded that was healed.

Rev.13:4-8 = dragon worship for 42 months, the world excepting Christ's elect, will worship the dragon (i.e, Satan). They don't worship a pope, nor an Arab cleric, not Mahdi, nor any flesh man. They worship Satan, the dragon. He is given to make war with the saints, showing the Church will still be here on earth.

Rev.13:9-10 = a warning for the Church to have patience.

Rev.13:11 = 2nd beast, the "another beast", who mimics Christ that has two horns LIKE a lamb, but speaks as a dragon (Satan). It is Satan, the angel king over the bottomless pit.

Rev.13:12 = that beast king works power from the 1st beast whose deadly wound was healed.

Rev.13:13-18 = the beast king works great wonders and miracles to deceive those on earth. He causes an image in false worship to be made and demands all bow to it, just as the king of Babylon Nebuchadnezzar did in his time. Thus the Rev.13:11-18 Scripture is about the beast 'king' idea from the Book of Daniel.

 

[iamlamad]

Rev.13:1-2 = 1st beast, a kingdom with ten horns, seven heads, and ten crowns.

Rev.13:2 "dragon" = Satan himself, as defined in Rev.12:9.

Rev.13:3 = 1st beast kingdom, one of its seven heads is wounded that was healed.

Rev.13:4-8 = dragon worship for 42 months, the world excepting Christ's elect, will worship the dragon (i.e, Satan). They don't worship a pope, nor an Arab cleric, not Mahdi, nor any flesh man. They worship Satan, the dragon. He is given to make war with the saints, showing the Church will still be here on earth.

Rev.13:9-10 = a warning for the Church to have patience.

Rev.13:11 = 2nd beast, the "another beast", who mimics Christ that has two horns LIKE a lamb, but speaks as a dragon (Satan). It is Satan, the angel king over the bottomless pit.

Rev.13:12 = that beast king works power from the 1st beast whose deadly wound was healed.

Rev.13:13-18 = the beast king works great wonders and miracles to deceive those on earth. He causes an image in false worship to be made and demands all bow to it, just as the king of Babylon Nebuchadnezzar did in his time. Thus the Rev.13:11-18 Scripture is about the beast 'king' idea from the Book of Daniel.

He is given to make war with the saints, showing the Church will still be here on earth. Sorry, not the church. Anyone on earth who turns to God after the pretrib rapture will be called "saints." In Rev. 12 John calls them the remnant - what is left after the rapture.

Rev.13:9-10 = a warning for the Church to have patience. No, a warning for those left behind at the rapture and have turned to God - to have patience.

It is Satan, the angel king over the bottomless pit. No, it is a MAN who is a servant of Satan. He is cast into the lake of fire before Satan is.

 

[iamlamad]

I don't see the scarlet colored beast representing Satan. In Revelation 17:3 we are told the scarlet colored beast has seven heads. That's the kingdom beast. The "woman", which is a "great city", sits upon that seven headed beast.

That Rev.17 chapter certainly is NOT historical, and the symbolic "woman" in that chapter we are told is a "great city" in the very last verse. So who have you been listening to?

Rev 17:18
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
KJV




Yes, Satan is the power behind the kingdom beast. He isn't bound in the pit yet, that's just his heavenly abode when he's not walking about roaming seeking whom he might devour (1 Peter 5:8; Job 1). He isn't a disembodied spirit either, for disembodied suggests one who once inhabited a flesh body. Satan and the angels have never been born in a flesh body, never will. They don't need it to appear on earth (Luke 4; Genesis 19).

Revelation points directly to Satan as the dragon, and the one who ascends out of the bottomless pit that is an angel and king over that pit. He doesn't need some flesh man to do his miracles on earth for the end, as that is what the coming tribulation is going to especially be about, i.e., it will be Satan as the coming Antichrist and the majority of the world will 'wonder' who that is doing those miracles. They will be it is God.



I'm afraid you really don't understand what it was that Satan did with his original rebellion against our Heavenly Father and His Son in the world that then was. God is going to allow Satan to come to our earth and try it for the end, which is why this next time the beast kingdom will have ten crowns instead of seven crowns like the one he first rebelled with in Revelation 12:3-4.

That Rev.17 chapter certainly is NOT historical, and the symbolic "woman" in that chapter we are told is a "great city" in the very last verse. Good job here! Many think the woman is all false religions of the world. They are wrong. John is speaking of the city of Jerusalem - but only during the time the Beast and False Prophet will be deceiving the world from that city.

Right: there is no history in chapter 17: it is about the Beast and the Kingdom of the Beast being destroyed.

Since the Beast rises up from the sea, and the chapter 17 beast comes up out of the bottomless pit, these are separate or different beasts. In chapter 13 it is the MAN turned beast, but in chapter 17 it is the evil spirit (Probably Satan Himself) behind and inside the Beast.

He doesn't need some flesh man to do his miracles on earth for the end, as that is what the coming tribulation is going to especially be about, i.e., it will be Satan as the coming Antichrist... Sorry Davy, but this is MYTH. The Beast of chapter 13 is the man of sin after Satan possesses him. He and the false Prophet (two evil men) are cast into the lake of fire long before Satan is. Satan uses two men to deceive the world.

the world will 'wonder' who that is doing those miracles. Did you notice that the False Prophet can only do miracles when He is in close proximity to the Beast? Why is that? Because Satan is INSIDE the Beast.

 

[Douggg]

Rev.13:4-8 = dragon worship for 42 months, the world excepting Christ's elect, will worship the dragon (i.e, Satan). They don't worship a pope, nor an Arab cleric, not Mahdi, nor any flesh man. They worship Satan, the dragon. He is given to make war with the saints, showing the Church will still be here on earth.

Not just the dragon, but also the beast.

1. the dragon (Satan)
2. the beast (the 8th king)

4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

The world will worship Satan, perhaps unwittingly, because he will incarnate the image of the beast - which will be worshiped.

15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

 

[Douggg]

Rev.13:11 = 2nd beast, the "another beast", who mimics Christ that has two horns LIKE a lamb, but speaks as a dragon (Satan). It is Satan, the angel king over the bottomless pit.

Jesus performed miracles of healing people. But Jesus did not call fire down from heaven. The another beast calls fire down from heaven.

The second beast has two horns like a lamb, because he will claim to speak for God - but instead speaks for Satan.

 

[iamlamad]

Not just the dragon, but also the beast.

1. the dragon (Satan)
2. the beast (the 8th king)

4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

The world will worship Satan, perhaps unwittingly, because he will incarnate the image of the beast - which will be worshiped.

15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

This is truth Davy: read and understand!

 

[Douggg]

The Beast of chapter 13 is the man of sin after Satan possesses him. He and the false Prophet (two evil men) are cast into the lake of fire long before Satan is. Satan uses two men to deceive the world.

lamad, there are three mouths in Revelation 16:13.

the mouth of the dragon
the mouth of the beast
the mouth of the false prophet

Since the beast and false prophet are men, and have mouths, it is easy to see how the kings of the earth will hear what they say.

The dragon, though, Satan - will not be visible; and his mouth will be that of the image of the beast - that speaks (Revelation 13:15). Satan will have incarnated that image (a statue) when he gets cast down to earth (from the second heaven) just after the middle of 7 years, when the 7th trumpet sounds.

Everyone will be required to worship the image, and in effect will be worshiping Satan, the fallen angel.

Because Satan is INSIDE the Beast.

.... inside the image of the beast. That's how there are the three mouths in Revelation 16:13.

1. the mouth of the dragon - (Satan inside the image of the beast, which will be worshiped).

2. the mouth of the beast (a man - who will be worshiped )

3. the mouth of the false prophet (a man - who does false miracles)

 

[iamlamad]

lamad, there are three mouths in Revelation 16:13.

the mouth of the dragon
the mouth of the beast
the mouth of the false prophet

Since the beast and false prophet are men, and have mouths, it is easy to see how the kings of the earth will hear what they say.

The dragon, though, Satan - will not be visible; and his mouth will be that of the image of the beast - that speaks (Revelation 13:15). Satan will have incarnated that image (a statue) when he gets cast down to earth (from the second heaven) just after the middle of 7 years, when the 7th trumpet sounds.

Everyone will be required to worship the image, and in effect will be worshiping Satan, the fallen angel.


.... inside the image of the beast. That's how there are the three mouths in Revelation 16:13.

1. the mouth of the dragon - (Satan inside the image of the beast, which will be worshiped).

2. the mouth of the beast (a man - who will be worshiped )

3. the mouth of the false prophet (a man - who does false miracles)

I think when John saw the three mouths, Satan was not inside any body at that moment. He saw three beings with three demonic spirits coming out of their mouths.

I think Satan can make an image speak without possessing an image. His power turned sticks into snakes - but I doubt He was IN the sticks or the snakes.

Next, all we know is that the image spoke. We don't know if this image continued to speak throughout the last half of the week. It is written "they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast..."

Then notice this verse:
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast...

He could only perform Miracles when he was close to the Beast. This tells me that Satan was possessing the Beast. The False Prophet had to be close to Satan to preform miracles.

 

[Douggg]

I think when John saw the three mouths, Satan was not inside any body at that moment. He saw three beings with three demonic spirits coming out of their mouths.

Revelation 16:13 has to be taking place at the end of the 7 years, because the kings of the earth assemble their armies at Armageddon. At that time in the future, Satan will have incarnated the statue image of the beast.

Then notice this verse:
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast...

He could only perform Miracles when he was close to the Beast. This tells me that Satan was possessing the Beast. The False Prophet had to be close to Satan to preform miracles.

For the last 42 months of the seven years:
The beast, a man, the end times person
The false prophet, a man, miracle worker
The image of the beast - living, speaking.

Before John's time, and at present:
The beast, the disembodied spirit currently in the bottomless pit.

Are all empowered by Satan.

I think the case I made for the three mouths, and three personages in Revelation 16:13 - out-weighs the rationale you are making of Satan incarnating the beast.
_________________________________________________

Additionally rationale for my p.o.v.

If you look at Ezekiel 28:16, God says He is going to destroy Satan.

In Ezekiel 28:17...
a. Satan to be cast to the ground. Revelation 12:7-17.

b. Satan to be exposed to kings of the earth.

In Ezekiel 28:18...
c. A fire from the midst of Satan, bringing him to ashes - i.e. the forthcoming destruction of the statue image of the beast, incarnated by Satan.

d. In the sight of them upon the earth, that they see Satan. To happen on the temple mount, surrounded by the armies of the world, as Jesus returns to the mount of olives and beams from his eyes, like a fire, directed against the living, speaking statue image of the beast, turning it into ashes. Physically exposing Satan - in plain sight to all them who had worshiped the image. Can you imagine the shock? It's going to be a scene like no other.

 

[iamlamad]

Revelation 16:13 has to be taking place at the end of the 7 years, because the kings of the earth assemble their armies at Armageddon. At that time in the future, Satan will have incarnated the statue image of the beast.



For the last 42 months of the seven years:
The beast, a man, the end times person
The false prophet, a man, miracle worker
The image of the beast - living, speaking.

Before John's time, and at present:
The beast, the disembodied spirit currently in the bottomless pit.

Are all empowered by Satan.

I think the case I made for the three mouths, and three personages in Revelation 16:13 - out-weighs the rationale you are making of Satan incarnating the beast.
_________________________________________________

Additionally rationale for my p.o.v.

If you look at Ezekiel 28:16, God says He is going to destroy Satan.

In Ezekiel 28:17...
a. Satan to be cast to the ground. Revelation 12:7-17.

b. Satan to be exposed to kings of the earth.

In Ezekiel 28:18...
c. A fire from the midst of Satan, bringing him to ashes - i.e. the forthcoming destruction of the statue image of the beast, incarnated by Satan.

d. In the sight of them upon the earth, that they see Satan. To happen on the temple mount, surrounded by the armies of the world, as Jesus returns to the mount of olives and beams from his eyes, like a fire, directed against the living, speaking statue image of the beast, turning it into ashes. Physically exposing Satan - in plain sight to all them who had worshiped the image. Can you imagine the shock? It's going to be a scene like no other.

At that time in the future, Satan will have incarnated the statue image of the beast. If you say so. I don't believe it. I think he possesses the Beast.

The image of the beast - living, speaking. let's look:

15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

So the image spoke. What did this image say? It seems clear that the image said that all who refused to worship it must be killed.

What we DON'T Know: how many times this image spoke. Perhaps it was only ONCE. Many translations say he put BREATH in the image so it could talk. I suspect it was a one time event. I don't think that satan stayed inside that image for 3.5 years.

Before John's time, and at present:
The beast, the disembodied spirit currently in the bottomless pit.
This would be the Beast from chapter 17, NOT the Beast from chapter 13 - who will be a man. The Beast in chapter 17 is the spiritual demonic power behind the man. I think it is Satan Himself. Perhaps there is another demonic spirit title the "destroyer."

d. In the sight of them upon the earth, that they see Satan. I doubt it.

Added later:
Revelation 16:13
And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

I don't see the image here.

 

[Davy]

He is given to make war with the saints, showing the Church will still be here on earth. Sorry, not the church. Anyone on earth who turns to God after the pretrib rapture will be called "saints." In Rev. 12 John calls them the remnant - what is left after the rapture.

Rev.13:9-10 = a warning for the Church to have patience. No, a warning for those left behind at the rapture and have turned to God - to have patience.

It is Satan, the angel king over the bottomless pit. No, it is a MAN who is a servant of Satan. He is cast into the lake of fire before Satan is.

The pre-trib rapture theory is specifically designed to cause the deceived to fall away to worship the "dragon" (Satan). There will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth when my Lord Jesus returns and find many that claimed to believe on Him have instead fallen away to the Antichrist who comes first. Those who fall to that are represented by the five foolish virgins in Matthew 25.

 

[Davy]

That Rev.17 chapter certainly is NOT historical, and the symbolic "woman" in that chapter we are told is a "great city" in the very last verse. Good job here! Many think the woman is all false religions of the world. They are wrong. John is speaking of the city of Jerusalem - but only during the time the Beast and False Prophet will be deceiving the world from that city.

Right: there is no history in chapter 17: it is about the Beast and the Kingdom of the Beast being destroyed.

Since the Beast rises up from the sea, and the chapter 17 beast comes up out of the bottomless pit, these are separate or different beasts. In chapter 13 it is the MAN turned beast, but in chapter 17 it is the evil spirit (Probably Satan Himself) behind and inside the Beast.

He doesn't need some flesh man to do his miracles on earth for the end, as that is what the coming tribulation is going to especially be about, i.e., it will be Satan as the coming Antichrist... Sorry Davy, but this is MYTH. The Beast of chapter 13 is the man of sin after Satan possesses him. He and the false Prophet (two evil men) are cast into the lake of fire long before Satan is. Satan uses two men to deceive the world.

the world will 'wonder' who that is doing those miracles. Did you notice that the False Prophet can only do miracles when He is in close proximity to the Beast? Why is that? Because Satan is INSIDE the Beast.

I see you have that misconception about the word 'man' that many have, thinking it always means a flesh-born man. The image of 'man' originated from God's Own Image per Genesis 1:26-27, or don't you remember that far back in God's Word?

In Isaiah 14, God refers to Lucifer as a man...

Isa 14:12-16
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, "I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High."
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, "Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
KJV

The meaning of Archangel Gabriel's name is 'man of God'.

So that is another point many are being fooled with, away from understanding how it is possible for angels to appear on earth with the image of 'man'. Hebrews 13 even tells us to mindful to entertain strangers, because some have entertained angels and didn't know it.

Thus Satan is well able to 'appear', literally, in our earthly dimension, right here on earth. Revelation 12:7-9 reveals he is going to be cast down to this earth, no more place found for him in Heaven. There's only 2 dimensions, this earthly one we live in, and the Heavenly one where God's and the angels are, including the abyss. He can't go any other place than right here on earth. That is why it will be a time on earth that has never been before, nor ever will be again.

 

[Davy]

Not just the dragon, but also the beast.

1. the dragon (Satan)
2. the beast (the 8th king)

4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

The world will worship Satan, perhaps unwittingly, because he will incarnate the image of the beast - which will be worshiped.

15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

You are confusing the 'beast' idea. The beast role the "dragon" will play is the beast king role, and that role is destroyed at Christ's return per Rev.19:20. Thus they worship the beast king who literally is the dragon (Satan). It's another direct pointer to Satan coming literally as the Antichrist. Our Lord Jesus is being good to us again, revealing the identity of the coming Antichrist.

The "image of the beast" is a repeat of what the historical king of Babylon did with setting up a gold idol of himself, and demanding all to bow in worship to it at the sound of the psalter. Daniel and his brethren refused to bow to it and were sentenced to death. For our time, at the end, that image will be probably be televised world-wide, requiring everyone to bow in worship to the Antichrist via that idol.

 

[Davy]

Jesus performed miracles of healing people. But Jesus did not call fire down from heaven. The another beast calls fire down from heaven.

The second beast has two horns like a lamb, because he will claim to speak for God - but instead speaks for Satan.

See Elijah's Mission in 2 Kings.

 

[Douggg]

The beast role the "dragon" will play is the beast king role, and that role is destroyed at Christ's return per Rev.19:20.

Davy, are you saying that Satan will himself be visible during the 42 months of Revelation 13. If so, what will his explanation be as far as where he was born, schools attended, etc ?

Or are you saying, like iamlamad, that Satan will possess, incarnate, the end times man king ?

 

[iamlamad]

The pre-trib rapture theory is specifically designed to cause the deceived to fall away to worship the "dragon" (Satan). There will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth when my Lord Jesus returns and find many that claimed to believe on Him have instead fallen away to the Antichrist who comes first. Those who fall to that are represented by the five foolish virgins in Matthew 25.

How funny! All this time I was sure the pretrib rapture was to take the church off the planet to avoid the church being in God's wrath. Paul wrote that God would NOT set any appointments for us with His wrath.

the Antichrist who comes first. Go back and study 2 thes. 2 and tell us what must come first.

 

[iamlamad]

I see you have that misconception about the word 'man' that many have, thinking it always means a flesh-born man. The image of 'man' originated from God's Own Image per Genesis 1:26-27, or don't you remember that far back in God's Word?

In Isaiah 14, God refers to Lucifer as a man...

Isa 14:12-16
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, "I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High."
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, "Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
KJV

The meaning of Archangel Gabriel's name is 'man of God'.

So that is another point many are being fooled with, away from understanding how it is possible for angels to appear on earth with the image of 'man'. Hebrews 13 even tells us to mindful to entertain strangers, because some have entertained angels and didn't know it.

Thus Satan is well able to 'appear', literally, in our earthly dimension, right here on earth. Revelation 12:7-9 reveals he is going to be cast down to this earth, no more place found for him in Heaven. There's only 2 dimensions, this earthly one we live in, and the Heavenly one where God's and the angels are, including the abyss. He can't go any other place than right here on earth. That is why it will be a time on earth that has never been before, nor ever will be again.

I don't believe you have the truth here.

 

[tranquil]

Jesus performed miracles of healing people. But Jesus did not call fire down from heaven. The another beast calls fire down from heaven.

The second beast has two horns like a lamb, because he will claim to speak for God - but instead speaks for Satan.

Jesus called down 'fire from heaven' on Pentecost as in Acts 2:1-4.

Both the mortally head wounded 'beast' and the False Prophet have Christ like components that they are imitating.

When the 'antichrist' is 'cut off', then it is a good bet that 50 days later is when the pharmakia/ drugs for sorcery (Revelation 18:23) can/will occur (same time as the 1st Trumpet's Hail & fire (Revelation 8:7) (to imitate being filled with the Holy Spirit).

 

[Davy]

Davy, are you saying that Satan will himself be visible during the 42 months of Revelation 13. If so, what will his explanation be as far as where he was born, schools attended, etc ?

Daniel 11 shows he will come to power with a 'small people' who forsake the holy covenant. That points to an inner circle of Jews that will promote him, giving all the necessary credentials on their side. We already know per our Lord Jesus' and His Apostle's warnings that he will not be our true Lord Jesus. And that he is not just coming to exalt himself, in other words, he is not coming as his real self the 'dragon', 'that old serpent', he is coming to play God all in all, to all religions. This is why Paul said he will exalt himself as God, and over all that is 'called God', or that is worshiped (2 Thess.2:4).

To almost... deceive Christ's very elect, like Jesus said that Antichrist would almost do, that means his coming in the role of The Messiah. Christ's very elect, who are sealed, would not believe on the devil come working miracles on earth. But if it were possible, they would believe on one claiming to be Christ working those miracles, and that is what our Lord was saying.

Matt 24:24
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
KJV

And once again, Christ's warning there in Matthew 24:23-26 is really about a singular Antichrist, not the "many antichrists" idea. This is why Dr. James Strong defined that Greek pseudochristos word as singular, with "a spurious Messiah".

In 2 Corinthians 11, Paul was emphatic about the "another Jesus" being preached, and fearful that brethren might follow after false ministers of Satan, and not to marvel because Satan himself transforms (disguises per the Greek) himself as an angel of light.

Then the grand finale, the Revelation 12:7 forward Scripture about Satan with his angels being booted out of Heaven down to earth for the end.

 

[Davy]

How funny! All this time I was sure the pretrib rapture was to take the church off the planet to avoid the church being in God's wrath. Paul wrote that God would NOT set any appointments for us with His wrath.

the Antichrist who comes first. Go back and study 2 thes. 2 and tell us what must come first.

Since you are told by the pre-trib rapture theorists you don't have to 'watch' what Jesus gave His to be watching for the end, then you don't know what 'wrath' you speak of.

And you have to go further in God's Word than just the 1 Thessalonians 5:9 verse to understand about that wrath, and when it will be.

Likewise with 2 Thess.2, you don't heed what is written there either, because Apostle Paul was emphatic there that Christ's coming and gathering of His Church will not happen until the "man of sin" (Antichrist) is revealed first playing God. Paul was even very stern there to not let any man deceive us on that order for Christ's return and gathering of His Church. That of course leaves out deceived folks that are on a pre-trib fly away rapture doctrine.