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Kylie

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I have to admit, you take socialism to the extreme.

How can you say they played no part in it?

If you can prevent something bad from happening, and yet chose not to prevent it, surely you bear at least some of the responsibility, yes?
 
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Kylie

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Do you really think that the consequences of being pregnant cease once the child is born?

Because my life changed completely when I got pregnant with my daughter, and it will never be the same again. So don't tell me it only lasts for 9 months.
 
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Kylie

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You seem to insist on misunderstanding the point of my analogy, which is that people have the right to do with their own bodies what they will.
 
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Kylie

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jayem

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Nothing ironic or hard to understand. In one case, the pregnancy ends because the mother consents to a legal medical procedure. In the other, the pregnancy ends because she's assaulted against her will. Consent makes all the difference.
 
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Dave-W

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You seem to insist on misunderstanding the point of my analogy, which is that people have the right to do with their own bodies what they will.
I would say NOT when that "right" could cost someone else their life.
 
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Dave-W

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e pregnancy ends because the mother consents to a legal medical procedure.
"Legal" means nothing on the moral scale. Say by some quirk, it could become legal to garrote someone to death. Just because it is legal does that mean that it is not murder?
 
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jayem

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"Legal" means nothing on the moral scale. Say by some quirk, it could become legal to garrote someone to death. Just because it is legal does that mean that it is not murder?

By the same token, because something is immoral doesn't mean it has to be illegal.
 
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blackribbon

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Nothing ironic or hard to understand. In one case, the pregnancy ends because the mother consents to a legal medical procedure. In the other, the pregnancy ends because she's assaulted against her will. Consent makes all the difference.

The irony is that same mother couldn't kill her baby (and by definition of these laws, it is being protected as a human child) after it was born but is allowed to kill it before it was born. The child is completely innocent. It didn't sneak into the mother's body like a virus. She participated in the making of that baby then gets to make the solo choice on whether or not to end its very life as long as she does it before it takes it's first breathe of air. Both are assaults against the CHILD ending in loss of life.
 
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blackribbon

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And if the life is lost because someone refuses to be an organ donor, is that okay?

In medicine, we promise to FIRST Do No Harm. Saving the one life isn't at the cost of another's. We don't sell body parts for this reason. There is a reason informed consent is needed (and maybe even a psychological exam) before a person can donate a body part. The donor actually can die or die earlier because they don't have two kidney's anymore.
 
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DiscipleHeLovesToo

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Except that doesn't work, does it?

Would you like a list of all the people who have died after refusing treatment and praying for recovery instead? It will be a very long list because it just doesn't work.

it works for me; i was diagnosed with terminal cancer 18 years ago, with a prognosis of 6 months to death; the doctors told me that there was no effective treatment for the cancer i had; it wasn't the 'miracle' of modern medicine that helped me. it took me two years to learn how to receive healing from God, and i haven't been treated by doctors for 16 years now. and i'm not the only one; God's word heals. how long is the list of people that the medical industry couldn't help? doctors aren't inherently evil; many many Christians wouldn't have lived long enough to learn how to receive healing from God if it hadn't been for doctors - but all they can do is address symptoms; they can't heal. and don't tell me you haven't received healing from God - have you ever cut your finger? dd it heal?

first, you need to understand God's system of delegated authority:

Gen 1:26 KJV
(26) And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

'let them have dominion...over all the earth'

Psa 115:16 KJV
(16) The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.

God gave unconditional authority over the earth to people in flesh bodies; this delegation of authority was without condition. God still has ultimate control, but He has limited Himself in the earth by this delegation of authority to people in flesh bodies - He can't operate independently in the earth - He must work through people - and people are flawed by their own selfishness. all the bad things that happen in the earth are because people in flesh bodies have dominion over the earth, and have free will.

let's say i deposited $1 million in a bank account with your name on it, sent you a letter telling you how to draw it out, and gave you my cell phone number so you could call me when you need help following the instructions in my letter. at the time i put the money in a bank account with your name on it, i would have already given you $1 million; but it wouldn't do you any good if you never drew it out. if you didn't read my letter, or read it but didn't believe it, or read and believed it but didn't ask me for clarification - you could die a pauper with $1 million in the bank - even though i had already given the money to you...
 
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ToddNotTodd

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Oh, so you should only help if you are responsible? That's lovely, that is.

Did I say that? No, no I did not.

Whether or not I think someone should be required to help someone is due in part to whether or not they caused the situation.

In the case of pregnancy, barring cases of rape, there's an assumption of risk involved in intercourse taken on by the woman. Pregnancy can occur as long as neither partner is infertile.

IF you were to conclude that a fetus is a person, then in my view body autonomy can't be called upon to be a factor at all. A situation was created, which the woman is aware could happen, in which a person (the fetus) is put in a situation in which that person can't leave a place (the uterus) for a certain period of time without dying. I think that the woman can't claim body autonomy as a justification for having someone remove the person from their body.

It's much easier to deny the fetus personhood (at least early in the pregnancy) than claim body autonomy. Because with respect to other persons, we don't have complete body autonomy...
 
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Dave-W

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If someone cold [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] me and I wake up to find they harvested a kidney - and that kidney has been implanted into a transplant recipient - DO I have the right to demand that kidney back?
BODY AUTONOMY.
 
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Kylie

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Anecdotal evidence.

And I could actually put your $1 million thing to the test. As in an actual test. The money in the account is a testable with with a clear and unambiguous answer.

Can't do that with God.
 
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bhsmte

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If you can survive without it, I wouldn't exactly cal it "vital". Sure it impacts on your life, but hey, so does pregnancy.

How about an eye? You can survive with one eye, are you willing to give up a cornea for someone else?

In summary, i understand the point you are trying to make, i just think you have taken it to the extreme.
 
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