My Gospel by Paul

[Strong in Him]

But I have to say, I noticed one thing interesting, out of all these additions, you never once mentioned water baptism.

Now that is certainly an addition that many Christians like to include. Is there a reason why you never mentioned that?

A person can declare faith in Jesus, believe in him, accept him, even be filled with his Spirit but then die before they are able to be baptised.
They are saved.
Jesus saves, not Jesus + baptism, church practice or anything else. Jesus is the only way to the Father.

 

[Guojing]

Believing in Jesus means believing in, and accepting who he was and what he claimed/taught - why don't you get that?
All I have been doing is explaining his teachings and claims.
A person - e.g. Muslim, cult member - who says they believe in Jesus but does not accept that he was God, does not really believe in him.

I'm sorry if you don't understand that.

I do, you are acting like the other Jew in my Passover analogy that I earlier shared with you.

Either way, all of us are saved.

 

[Guojing]

A person can declare faith in Jesus, believe in him, accept him, even be filled with his Spirit but then die before they are able to be baptised.
They are saved.
Jesus saves, not Jesus + baptism, church practice or anything else. Jesus is the only way to the Father.

But you would agree that if one believe everything you said, but to play safe, he decided to get water baptized as well, he is still saved at the end correct?

 

[Strong in Him]

I do,

You clearly don't.

 

[Strong in Him]

But you would agree that if one believe everything you said, but to play safe, he decided to get water baptized as well, he is still saved at the end correct?

If that was his attitude, would he really believe and trust in Jesus?
"I'd better get baptised to play it safe. Just in case I can't trust Jesus to be enough and to do all that he said he would do, I'd better be baptised; that should do it."
If he is trying to add to the finished work of Christ, does he really believe in what Christ said?

 

[Sorn]

If that was his attitude, would he really believe and trust in Jesus?
"I'd better get baptised to play it safe. Just in case I can't trust Jesus to be enough and to do all that he said he would do, I'd better be baptised; that should do it."
If he is trying to add to the finished work of Christ, does he really believe in what Christ said?

I'm sure their attitude would be more like 'i think i also need to be baptised so i'll do that to' rather than 'I don't think i need to be baptised. but in case I have misunderstood scripture i shall in any case'. I'd say they are saved in both cases even though the baptism did not contribute to that salvation. It is easy to be uncertain about baptism.

 

[Strong in Him]

I'm sure their attitude would be more like 'i think i also need to be baptised so i'll do that to' rather than 'I don't think i need to be baptised. but in case I have misunderstood scripture i shall in any case'. I'd say they are saved in both cases even though the baptism did not contribute to that salvation. It is easy to be uncertain about baptism.

Yes, but the phrase "play it safe" was used.
That, to me, suggests someone who isn't too sure about trusting Jesus or his teachings on eternal life, so wants a back up just in case.
Some non Christians DO say "we need to get him baptised before/in case he dies", or "she wasn't baptised so we won't see her in heaven." The baptism is regarded as the vehicle for salvation; little is known of the God who loves that child and will accept them.
And I dare say that some folk go through full immersion without understand what it's all about, or trusting in Jesus - JWs and Mormons particularly.

 

[Guojing]

If that was his attitude, would he really believe and trust in Jesus?
"I'd better get baptised to play it safe. Just in case I can't trust Jesus to be enough and to do all that he said he would do, I'd better be baptised; that should do it."
If he is trying to add to the finished work of Christ, does he really believe in what Christ said?

In that case, you are also in danger

 

[Guojing]

I'm sure their attitude would be more like 'i think i also need to be baptised so i'll do that to' rather than 'I don't think i need to be baptised. but in case I have misunderstood scripture i shall in any case'. I'd say they are saved in both cases even though the baptism did not contribute to that salvation. It is easy to be uncertain about baptism.

Yes, its like Jews whom at Passover night in Egypt, added stuff but they also paste the blood of the Lamb on their doorposts.

Their works will be burnt up though, but they will still be saved, as Paul explained in 1 Corinthians 3:10-15

 

[Strong in Him]

In that case, you are also in danger

You don't seem to understand the difference to adding to the Gospel and explaining it.

And can you please stop winking at me, it's getting annoying.

 

[Guojing]

You don't seem to understand the difference to adding to the Gospel and explaining it.

And can you please stop winking at me, it's getting annoying.

Just trying to present a relaxed discussion.

Just as you think others are adding when they want to be water baptized, to me, you are also adding to the gospel when you are claiming 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 is not sufficient to save anyone.

 

[Strong in Him]

Just trying to present a relaxed discussion.

Ok.

Just as you think others are adding when they want to be water baptized, to me, you are also adding to the gospel when you are claiming 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 is not sufficient to save anyone.

Firstly, I did not say that 1 Cor 15:1-4 is not sufficient to save anyone. I said that it doesn't contain the whole Gospel - it doesn't mention the Holy Spirit. It also doesn't mention that Jesus was/is God.
Now when Paul wrote it, I have no doubt that he had explained these things to the Corinthians and told them exactly who Jesus was. He had also, previously in the letter, taught about the resurrection and the Holy Spirit - seeing as they were able to speak in tongues (chapter 14.)
But the point I was trying to make was that if you said to a non Christian today "believe that Christ died for your sins, that he was buried and that he was raised", you would probably be met with blank looks. Even if the non Christian had a church background, you might still need to explain those verses - in my experience, for example, if people live "good" lives and occasionally go to church, they don't believe they are sinners. If the non Christian you are speaking to does not have a church background, you would need to explain who Jesus was - not just a good man - what it means that he died for our sins and so on. There are hundreds of books, booklets, tracts and teaching courses on how to present the Gospel; none of which say, "just quote these 4 verses in 1 Cor and that's all that's needed."
I am not adding to anything.
I am saying that presenting/proclaiming the Gospel involves more that saying "believe Christ died for your sins was buried and was raised." Even Paul says this. He taught, elsewhere, about Jesus being the second Adam, about us dying to sin, about being reconciled to God, about living life in the Spirit (Romans 8), about God's love, spiritual warfare and Jesus' return. All of that is found in Paul's 13 letters, yet he doesn't mention it in 1 Cor 15:1-4.
Of course these verses COULD save - God can do anything and doesn't even need our help, or input, to do so. But if you went up to an unbeliever, quoted these verses and the unbeliever immediately believed, that would be because the Holy Spirit was, and had been, working in them. Yet the Spirit himself is not taught in these verses.

Secondly, I don't remember, originally, mentioning water baptism at all - so, if anything, you have added that to our discussion.

 

[Guojing]

Ok.

Firstly, I did not say that 1 Cor 15:1-4 is not sufficient to save anyone. I said that it doesn't contain the whole Gospel - it doesn't mention the Holy Spirit. It also doesn't mention that Jesus was/is God.

Oh, so you now agree with my point that the gospel found in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 is sufficient for salvation.

That was my point all along.

 

[Strong in Him]

Oh, so you now agree with my point that the gospel found in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 is sufficient for salvation.

Never mind.

 

[Guojing]

Never mind.

I did not say that 1 Cor 15:1-4 is not sufficient to save anyone

I thought only Americans used double negation to mean single, UK residents as well?

 

[FredVB]

When you are a real believer, and in Christ, you are sealed. You still have to look to really see evidence that you are a believer. Doubtless there are many who believe they are believers

Being a real believer involves actual repentance which is with faith, that one is enabled to come to Christ, to be in Christ and covered with his atonement bearing the judgment for sins, to be restored to God with a changed life. This has evidence for us, while there are others identifying as Christian believers who don't come to that. Those that do endure then, and have the promise of being sealed.

 

[FredVB]

There is one baptism, it is spiritual in nature because every believer is with repentant faith and is in Christ, since each came to Christ, they all have this one baptism. There are not others who are real believers and who are saved in Christ. There are a few without the baptism of water who still have the one baptism, the thief who was dying on a cross next to Jesus and repented is an example for that. Such one changed in the limited way possible in that little bit of time left. Those saying they are believers, even if saying they have faith, but don't need to repent, don't show real change for anything spiritual, which involves fruit of the Spirit, and they wouldn't last but would probably turn from that faith surprisingly soon. In that way it's those who endure who are saved.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

There is one baptism, it is spiritual in nature because every believer is with repentant faith and is in Christ, since each came to Christ, they all have this one baptism. There are not others who are real believers and who are saved in Christ. There are a few without the baptism of water who still have the one baptism, the thief who was dying on a cross next to Jesus and repented is an example for that. Such one changed in the limited way possible in that little bit of time left. Those saying they are believers, even if saying they have faith, but don't need to repent, don't show real change for anything spiritual, which involves fruit of the Spirit, and they wouldn't last but would probably turn from that faith surprisingly soon. In that way it's those who endure who are saved.

The bottom line, because God knows the hearts of people, the foundation stands sure; God knows those who are His. I think for all of us it is important that we have the assurance that Jesus knows us, so that when we come before Him on resurrection day we don't get the shattering news from Him: "I never knew you."

 

[FredVB]

The bottom line, because God knows the hearts of people, the foundation stands sure; God knows those who are His. I think for all of us it is important that we have the assurance that Jesus knows us, so that when we come before Him on resurrection day we don't get the shattering news from Him: "I never knew you."

I don't think I am saying something different from that, unless you can point it out. God does know who we are who are in Christ, indeed. Making sure we are is something we are yet told to do, some are not there thinking yet that they are. Essential things, like repentance, might be missing, and such remaining as they are won't last with the faith.

 

[Clare73]

I don't think I am saying something different from that, unless you can point it out. God does know who we are who are in Christ, indeed. Making sure we are is something we are yet told to do, some are not there thinking yet that they are. Essential things, like repentance, might be missing, and such remaining as they are won't last with the faith.

Keeping in mind that "repent" is "to turn". . .from sin.