My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?

[WorldWithoutEnd]

I have a question about why Jesus said this on the cross. Why did he phrase it as a question? Didn't he know why he was being forsaken?

Please note that I know why he was forsaken - everyone I ask about this goes on a big rant about the theology behind why he had to be cut off from God to take our sins upon him, etc, etc. I get that. My question is why he asked it as a question. If he had of said "My God, my God, you forsaken me and I hate it" or something like that, I would have no problem.

Thanks in advance.

 

[QuantaCura]

I have a question about why Jesus said this on the cross. Why did he phrase it as a question? Didn't he know why he was being forsaken?

Please note that I know why he was forsaken - everyone I ask about this goes on a big rant about the theology behind why he had to be cut off from God to take our sins upon him, etc, etc. I get that. My question is why he asked it as a question. If he had of said "My God, my God, you forsaken me and I hate it" or something like that, I would have no problem.

Thanks in advance.

He's quoting Psalm 22. You have to read the whole thing to get it

Most Jews at the time would have realized it immediately and been able to recite the rest in their heads.

 

[ischus]

Yes, and when you read the whole of Psalm 22 you might have a new perspective on whether or not Jesus was actually being forsaken by God on the cross. I believe that Jesus was referring to the whole Psalm, which is not one of forsakeness, but just the opposite.

 

[Silverlin]

I dont believe Jesus was asking a question rather he was affirming Psalm 22, and affirming his prophesy.

 

[StAnselm]

Yes, and when you read the whole of Psalm 22 you might have a new perspective on whether or not Jesus was actually being forsaken by God on the cross. I believe that Jesus was referring to the whole Psalm, which is not one of forsakeness, but just the opposite.

Yes, I've come across this view before - that it was actually a cry of victory - but I find it very unconvincing myself. No, there was an actual separation between the Father and the Son.

Of course, Jesus knew that the separation would not last forever. And we do need to read the words in the context of the whole psalm.

 

[ischus]

Yes, I've come across this view before - that it was actually a cry of victory - but I find it very unconvincing myself. No, there was an actual separation between the Father and the Son.

Of course, Jesus knew that the separation would not last forever. And we do need to read the words in the context of the whole psalm.

Hi

I have gone back and forth between the two views historically, but I have come to the conclusion that there was no reason for a separation. Not only is there a lack of Biblical evidence for such a separation, but the Bible (IMO) supports the opposite idea. I find the the view of separation (ironically!) unconvincing.

I am not much for cut-throat debate, so you will find that I respect your opinion and I certainly don't think this is a matter of Salvation. However, I don't really see any substantial Biblical evidence for a necessary separation due to sin (I assume you believe the separation is due to sin, correct?) in the context of Jesus and the cross. I invite you to point out the relevant scriptures to me.

I would be glad to share my full argument, although I suppose you have heard it before as you have stated.

Blessings,

ischus

 

[StAnselm]

You're very gracious - and I don't particularly want to have a big debate on the subject either.

Yes, I see the separation as being due to sin. I suppose my theological justification is the idea of God's Servant being "cut off" in Isaiah 53, etc. This expression also hints at being cut off from God. Then there's Paul statement that Christ was made sin for us...

 

[ischus]

I agree with Paul (of course) about Jesus being made sin. As you know, I don't think this was grounds for a separation (not to mention the issue of Jesus as God).

In regard to Isa.53, could it be possible that being cut off refers to physical death? After all, it only states that the Servant is being cut off from the land of the living (lit. "life"), not from God.

Blessings,

ischus

 

[Simonline]

Post deleted.

 

[Simonline]

Post deleted.

 

[ischus]

The Messiah as human experienced the same moral and ethical separation from God whilst he was upon the cross that the rest of us (prior to becoming believers) experience permanently (and I don't mean that that is all that the Messiah experienced upon the cross which therefore means that it was 'no big deal'?!)...

Would you mind expanding on this a bit more? I don't quite understand why Jesus must experience separation simply because we experienced separation. Wouldn't it be the other way around anyway--that he experienced separation so that we don't have to?

I also am having difficulty understanding:

...which is why God is presently hidden from the world so that we don't all have to suffer the same fate as Uzziah or the 50,070 Israelites whom God wiped off the face of the Earth for treating his holiness with contempt (2Sam.6:6-7; 1Sam.6:19-20).

If you don't mind expanding on this as well, I would like to hear your explanation.


Thanks,

ischus

 

[msortwell]

Well, it would certainly seem that the language of Jesus outcry would indicate that God, in some manner, separated from Him. Strong's provides the following for the meaning of "has thou foresaken."

egkataleipo (eng-kat-al-i'-po); from NT:1722 and NT:2641; to leave behind in some place, i.e. (in a good sense) let remain over, or (in a bad sense) to desert: KJV - forsake, leave. (Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Additionally, the following Scriptures seem consistent in their message that a sin-laden messiah could not be in normal communion with God the Father.

Isa 59:1-2
1 Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear. KJV

2 Cor 5:20-21
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us , who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. KJV

Gal 3:13
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree : KJV

Blessings,

Mike

 

[ischus]

I think it is firmly established that Jesus is quoting Ps.22, so our definition of "forsaken" ought to be taken from this context (and not Strong's).

As to the other verses you have mentioned, msortwell, I think it will also be of help to read those in context as well. The very next verse in Isaiah 59 says, "your hands are defiled with blood, your fingers with iniquity, your lips have spoken falsehood, your tongue speaks wickedness." Are these also to be attributed to Jesus on the cross?

As for the other two verses you have provided, I (obviously) agree. But, does the fact that Jesus was a sin offering, vicariously suffering for the guilty party, amount to the Father turning His back on His son? If so, please explain. At the same time, does Jesus' taking our curse upon himself mean that the Father would abandon him at the cross?

Just a few questions,

ischus

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

discovering that the hebrew word for 'sin-offering' is wrongly translated 'sin' corrects
a lot of the english translations. the same word could mean 'sin', but there is no
indication that Yeshua could, would, nor should become 'sin'; clearly Yeshua is/was a
sin-offering in place for us, whosoever obediently trusts Him.
somewhere else on the web is a really good site that shows that since Yhwh's Word is
that Yhwh will not forsake anyone who trusts Him, just as Yeshua told His disciples
that He would be with them forever, then it is possible, perhaps moreso, that
Yeshua's Word on the execution tree was not "..forsaken.." but rather "for this cause I was appointed."

so it may not have been a question at all, but an affirmation, a testimony, that
Yeshua knew what He was doing, completely in accord with Yhwh's Word and Plan.

overwhelmingly, churches/religious society disagrees, which may be a more sure
sign that "for this cause I have been appointed" is accurate. whatever the one
world church publishes as truth is observably contrary to truth for 'infants' whom Abba Father 'has chosen gladly' to reveal these things, while hiding them from 'scholars':Yeshua's Word in the Gospel.

 

[JesusPower]

I always understood that God had to turn his back on Jesus. Not because he became sin but because he took our sins. God can not be in the presence of sin. What a most humbling God to come to this filthy eart and make the full atonement for our sins. To give us the Holy Spirit so we can have authority over the sin nature.


What a wonderful most precious, beautiful, glorious God we serve. We give you all the praise and glory Father!!!!!

Pro

 

[Jesusmyfriend]

/

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Perhaps someone who knows Hebrew can show
that Yeshua could not become sin, He became sin-offering(mistranslated in english editions).
If Yeshua became sin, He would have deserved death.
As a sin offering, He paid the price required for redemption.
If He was sin or even had just one sin, Yeshua could have redeemed no one.

question in line with thread: Did Abram forsake Isaac when he put him on the altar
and was ready to sacrifice him? Or were he and Isaac both willing to fulfill Yhwh's
Plan willingly together?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

What does Psalm 22 say? (please note verse 24):
Psalm 22 (The Message)Copyright © 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 2000, 2001, 2002 by Eugene H. Peterson Psalm 22

A David psalm

1God, God . . . my God! Why did you dump me

miles from nowhere?


2Doubled up with pain, I call to God
all the day long. No answer. Nothing.
I keep at it all night, tossing and turning.
3And you! Are you indifferent, above it all,
leaning back on the cushions of Israel's praise?
4I know you were there for our parents:
5they cried for your help and you gave it;
they trusted and lived a good life.
6And here I am, a nothing--an earthworm,
something to step on, to squash.
7Everyone pokes fun at me;
they make faces at me, they shake their heads:
8"Let's see how GOD handles this one;
since God likes him so much, let him help him!"
9And to think you were midwife at my birth,
setting me at my mother's breasts!
10When I left the womb you cradled me;
since the moment of birth you've been my God.
11Then you moved far away
and trouble moved in next-door.
I need a neighbor.
12Herds of bulls come at me,
the raging bulls stampede,
13Horns lowered, nostrils flaring,
like a herd of buffalo on the move.
14I'm a bucket kicked over and spilled,
every joint in my body has been pulled apart.
My heart is a blob
of melted wax in my gut.
15I'm dry as a bone,
my tongue black and swollen.
They have laid me out for burial
in the dirt.
16Now packs of wild dogs come at me;
thugs gang up on me.
They pin me down hand and foot,
17and lock me in a cage--a bag
Of bones in a cage, stared at
by every passerby.
18They take my wallet and the shirt off my back
and then throw dice for my clothes.
19You, GOD-don't put off my rescue!

Hurry and help me!
20Don't let them cut my throat;
don't let those mongrels devour me.
21If you don't show up soon,
I'm done for--gored by the bulls,
meat for the lions.
22Here's the story I'll tell my friends when they come to worship,
and punctuate it with Hallelujahs:
23Shout Hallelujah, you God--worshipers;
give glory, you sons of Jacob;
adore him, you daughters of Israel.
++++++24He has never let you down,
++++++never looked the other way
++++++when you were being kicked around.
++++++He has never wandered off to do his own thing;
++++++he has been right there, listening.
25Here in this great gathering for worship
I have discovered this praise--life.
And I'll do what I promised right here
in front of the God--worshipers.
26Down-and-outers sit at GOD's table
and eat their fill.
Everyone on the hunt for God
is here, praising him.
"Live it up, from head to toe.
Don't ever quit!"
27From the four corners of the earth
people are coming to their senses,
are running back to GOD.
Long-lost families
are falling on their faces before him.
28GOD has taken charge;
from now on he has the last word.
29All the power-mongers are before him
-worshiping!
All the poor and powerless, too
-worshiping!
Along with those who never got it together
-worshiping!
30Our children and their children
will get in on this
As the word is passed along
from parent to child.
31Babies not yet conceived
will hear the good news--
that God does what he says.

 

[dcyates]

I have a question about why Jesus said this on the cross. Why did he phrase it as a question? Didn't he know why he was being forsaken?

Please note that I know why he was forsaken - everyone I ask about this goes on a big rant about the theology behind why he had to be cut off from God to take our sins upon him, etc, etc. I get that. My question is why he asked it as a question. If he had of said "My God, my God, you forsaken me and I hate it" or something like that, I would have no problem.

Thanks in advance.

Admittedly, I've only skimmed through most of the responses on this thread, but I tend to agree with most of them. Unquestionably Jesus is referring to Psalm 22. Just as the Jews tended to name the books of the OT with either the first word or words that appear at the beginning of each book, so also did they identify each psalm by its first line. Thus Jesus definitely intends his listeners (and by extention, us readers) to take into consideration the entire psalm. It is therefore surely noteworthy that Ps. 22 is a prayer for deliverance in the face of serious illness and ruthless enemies. The psalm's symmetric format is aimed at emphasizing the psalmist's appeal to God for help and to draw out the contrast between his initial plight and his final deliverance. The description of the psalmist's desperate situation is accentuated by its placement at the centre of the psalm.

For instance:
Psalm 22
a introductory complaint: God does not hear my cries for help! (vv. 1-8)
...b appeal for help (9-11)
.......-"do not be far" ('al-tirhaq) from me... for there is none to help ('zr)!"
.......c CENTRE: description of dire situation (12-18)
...b' appeal for help (19-21)
.......-"do not be far" ('al-tirhaq) from me... hasten to help ('zr)!"
a' concluding praise: God has heard my cry for help! (22-31)

 

[joyfulthanks]

Hello all,

I believe the answer lies in Psalm 22, v.24:

For He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted;
Nor has He hidden His face from him;
But when he cried to Him for help, He heard.


To me, this seems to be the answer to the rhetorical question raised in verse 1 of the same Psalm - "My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me?" Jesus is showing that it may appear that He has been forsaken by God, but in reality, He has not been.

Quite frequently, I hear people say that God the Father turned His face away from Jesus on the cross. This is in direct contradiction to verse 24.

Your sister in Christ,
Grace