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My Final Conclusion about Science and Religion

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aeroz19

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Part I: The History, Process, and Education

I joined CF on May 17, 2004. It was then that I began my quest for knowledge and the truth that this knowledge would lead me to. Before that date arrived I was ready to burst with long-unanswered questions about science and religion. Doubts and deep fears penetrated my mind (and yes, soul as well) and demanded answers. I was curious--dying to get answers; nothing could stop me. CF was the place I could go to connect with others who might have the answers. I knew that no one I had access to in real life could or would be willing to help me. I was surrounded by YECists and biblical literalists who were satisfied by the simple answers they received in church about science and religion--including my folks.

But I wasn't satisfied. And that was the problem.

I started out as a bold, militant, in-your-face Biblical literalist and YECist and fundamentalist when I came here, though I was filled with doubts and fears that I could be totally wrong about everything (I'd been fearing that since I was 13, but kept the status quo due to lack of access to material from the "other" side). Those doubts were fully confronted here, in these forums. I asked every question, explored every weak point in my beliefs, and genuinely sought to understand the thinking and theories that opposed my beliefs...

And that's where the trouble began.

I started to realize that people and the world were not as I had been told they were. And then more trouble began. I began to wonder, if they weren't as I had been told they were, then what were the true nature and state of things? And as I kept probing and searching, I found that my beliefs about people, about my country, and about science and God and the Bible--indeed everything--could not stand up to reality, and so began to crumble.

(Damn, I am hearing all this narrated through the voice of Paul Harvey...)

When I made my way to the C&E forum, I thought I'd be able to show all the evolutionists wrong. I imagined I'd become a mighty voice for the YECist side of things, and I had fully expected to see the YECists crushing the evolutionists.

Oh, but how disappointed I was, when I saw the true state of things.

What I saw were weak arguments (at the time, while I was a YECist, I believed the arguments were weak) going up against counter-arguments that I had only caught slight glimpses of before; many I had simply never seen before. The only view I had of evolution was that presented to me from a YECist perspective in YECist writings and books. When I began to seriously and open-mindedly consider (which happened right away, but I didn't want anyone to know that) the arguments made by evolutionists, they made a lot of sense to me. In fact, they made more sense to me than anything I had been told before by YECists.

For example, throughout the years, as I was reading YECist literature, I would be slightly frustrated when I would read bold claims that would have no evidence to back them up. Just the claim. I had a decision to make: accept the claim, or doubt it and linger on the fence. I often accepted it because I was a YECist, but the acceptance caused intellectual discomfort, and emotional discomfort as well, because my curiosity was not adequately satisfied--and it angered me. This happened frequently, not just in the YECist literature that I read, but also in church during the service. Claims were constantly made--bold claims. I was frustratingly left the decision to accept them or reject them, and I often grudgingly accepted. Whenever I took the route of searching for evidence to back a claim, either in church or in YECist literature, I would be presented a tract, pamphlet, article, or website with YECist or fundamentalist apologetic literature. I would feel a little better after reading the literature, but would still be left with questions and doubts that never went away.

And when I came here to CF, and read the arguments by evolutionists, I encountered online material and book suggestions that simply overwhelmed me. I had never before confronted so much material. Just one highly-focused topic alone would require much reading and deep thought, and I would find links that led to more links that led to more links and so forth. The material was all over the place, and I often encountered material that was written on or above the college-level. All summer was spent (working a job and) digging frantically into the material. It was overwhelming.

It wasn't long before it became apparent that I had absolutely no clue what evolution was.

After this somewhat embarrassing realization, I decided to find out immediately what it was. Thus the old thread: "Atheists and Agnostics, Now it's Your Turn." Still remember the title. And upon learning what it was, I thought that it seemed entirely possible for it to have happened or to happen now. I asked for proof from evolutionists, and they gave it to me, especially lucaspa. Upon finding out he was actually a Christian and an evolutionist, I marvelled. He cited a lot of cases--not just arguments that it could happen (as YECists often wrote in their literature "this or that could have happened, and therefore we know it did") but cases in which it was observed to have happened.

And that blew me away. Microevolution did happen. At least some forms of variation and modification did occur, and have been observed (recently!) to have happened. Most conservative Christians at least are open to microevolution, but I had not been. To my thinking, it should not have happened.

I was stunned by this new reality. Microevolution occurs. I immediately thought, "Well, if micro can happen, why not macro?" I then printed out some articles/papers on the natural limits of micro-evolution (the argument that macro cannot happen in nature because there are natural limits that prevent this). I also read material that argued that it could happen. All the evidence from paleontolgy was above my head and I had no framework with which to understand or investigate it, so I largely ignored it.

After educating myself on the topic of evolution, examining the arguments from both sides, and giving myself a period of time to mentally digest and process the new data, I decided that microevolution does in fact occur, and that it was entirely possible for macroevolution to occur, though not all evolutionist scientists today agree on exactly how macroevolution works. And this is what I think to this day.

In any conclusion there is a process of reason in which one must choose to accept or deny arguments, facts, or both. Sometimes the arguments or facts may be so persuasive that there is hardly a decision at all; the choice is obvious. And in other cases, the facts and arguments may seem to be nearly balanced, making one's decision in which one to believe more difficult. In my conclusions about evolution, I chose to reject the arguments used by YECists because there were problems with them. And here is a list of such problems I encountered, in order of frequency and magnitude:
  1. YECists misrepresented evolutionists' statements/quotes/arguments
  2. YECists ignored key facts, arguments, and logic
  3. YECists used incorrect data to support their positions
  4. YECists outright lied
While in the intellectual process of decision-making on evolution, I was shocked at discovering these problems, and I became offended, enraged, etc. At that time I was dealing with emotional stress, having discovered that all that time I had been deceived into believing in YECism. It became evident to me, increasingly, that the YECist literature I had been reading all those years was set up more as propoganda than educational material.

For a time I severely doubted God, and underwent some emotional/psychological/spiritual trauma, but such a state was shortlived and lasted less than a week (though the doubting God part lasted longer).

Please do not respond until I have completed parts II and III.
 
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aeroz19

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Part III will include my final conclusions, and will be posted after this post. Please refrain from replying until I am finished with Parts II and III.

You have to understand some things about me. I was a sheltered strict, fundamentalist, YECist. I did not know, and had not read about, many of the things you all take for granted. A lot of this new material I encountered when I came here shocked me and scared me. It scared me because I had been taught the doctrine of Biblical literalism, which says that the Bible is absolutely perfect and has no errors. It says the Bible is historically, scientifically, and spiritually correct. Therefore, to my mind, even if there was one historical or scientific error in the Bible, then the entire Bible could not be trusted. This was the reason for the fear. The shock was due to the fact that I never expected such evidence to exist.

After drawing the conclusions about microevolution and evolution discussed in part I, I became very excited. The possibility that we actually don't know everything about who we are, where we came from, our origins, etc., excited me. If there are things we still don't know, and the Bible doesn't have all the answers neatly outlined in it, then we still have lots of things to discover about ourselves and our past. I began to ask questions about the fossil record and the first life forms, and the replies left me in wonder and awe. I am, in fact, in awe to this day, and have a lot to learn about it all, though I believe in those areas, as our knowlege expands, our understanding and theories will change dramatically.

The point at which I first realized that microevolution occurs and that macroevolution is a strong possibility, and the point where I completely rejected YECism, lasted for a few months. I do not draw conclusions hastily. During this time I increasingly felt more and more freedom in what I could believe and explore. Blastphemies and ungodliness abounded (according to fundamentalist thinking).

I began to investigate each and every claim that I could remember ever having been taught during the years. Some of these topics include:
  • The worldwide flood
  • The age of the earth
  • The age of the moon
  • Starlight and what it says about the age of the universe
  • (more about) Evolution being a lie, specific claims and arguments about this
  • Adam and Eve
  • Humans being intelligent or advanced in ancient times
  • Cosmology and the laws of thermodynamics
I read a few books by Henry Morris, as well as many other books by both YECists and evolutionists (I cannot remember them all).

Systematically, I drew conclusions that aligned with evolutionist thinking. I saw why they believe in long ages, descent with modification and the origin of humans from non-human life. And I decided that they were right--that the material I was reading showed that they were right. I was awed at it all.

This process of education and discovery led to a dramatic change in my political beliefs. My reasoning (whether correct or not) led me to conclude that if Genesis is not true and does not have to be believed literally, maybe moral codes in the Bible do not have to be believed literally either. Maybe homosexuality is not evil. Maybe women do not have to submit to men. Maybe hell doesn't exist. Heck, maybe God doesn't exist either. That one scared me.

My earliest reasoning, before the one above, went like this: Genesis was written as a literal account, just as everything else Moses wrote. Just as Moses believed he had received the Ten Commandments from God, so he also believed that the earth was created in six days not so long ago. And if Moses was wrong about the age of the earth and its origins, maybe he was wrong about the Ten Commandments. Maybe the Ten Commandments were just from Moses' immagination, and not from God. Why would the Ten Commandments be from God, while the Genesis creation story was not?

But then Christians were trying to convince me that Genesis was never meant to be taken literally. To this day they have not thoroughly convinced me. (Sorry, Vance)

Once my firm belief in literalism was shaken and finally thrown off, so was my strict adherence to biblical moral codes. The two were directly linked together; what happened to one would, and did indeed, happen to the other.

And so, I began to create a new moral code for myself that included such things as self-determination, feminism, humanism, secularism, modernism, and a new form of patriotism. New scientific knowlege about embryology (new as in, I had just discovered it), coupled with my new moral code, caused me to change my position on abortion.

At this time I became a liberal. I was a seeker for about a year, though I still considered myself a Christian. I attended church, but soon dropped out altogether. I maintained a belief in God, though it wavered. I didn't know who or what I was anymore.

And now, the final conclusion...
 
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Matthew777

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Valkhorn

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Part III will include my final conclusions, and will be posted after this post. Please refrain from replying until I am finished with Parts II and III.

You are a humanist now? Well, have fun picnicking with Bertrand Russell. ;)

In all seriousness, Christianity is a reasonable faith.

The Bodily Resurrection of Jesus
Dr. William Lane Craig
http://www.leaderu.com/offices/bill...ocs/bodily.html

The Evidence For Jesus
Dr. William Lane Craig
http://www.leaderu.com/offices/bill...ediscover2.html

The Resurrection: Fact or Fiction?
Pat Zukeran
http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/resurrec.html

5. YEC's cannot follow directions.


http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/resurrec.html

 
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Matthew777

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Valkhorn said:



5. YEC's cannot follow directions.


I am not a young earth creationist. Furthermore, there is no reason to follow directions. I understand that the intellectual oppression of YEC can lead one to have a crisis of faith but allowing it to rob your faith entirely is highly unfortunate.
Christianity /=/ Denial of reality

As my anthropology instructor once said, "Christianity is on the decline, fundamentalism is on the rise". I guess this is just one more victim of American mega-churchianity.
 
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aeroz19

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May 17, 2004 - June 22, 2005. Just over a year.

As I have said before, I had been experiencing doubts and fears ever since my early adolescent years concerning my beliefs, and that included not only the fear that maybe my scientific beliefs were wrong, but also my beliefs about the existence of God. As I said, in church and in the scientific and apologetic literature I read, claims were stated and expected to be believed. Sometimes some reason was given for why a claim should be believed, such as an argument, some reasoning, or a sudden spurt of facts that were presented.

I often heard something stated to be a truth. The irony is that, when something was stated to be a truth, there was never any reasoning or evidence or logic given; when something was stated to be a "truth" it was simply expected to be believed.

Then I began to attend more liberal churches to experiment with different approaches to God and the Bible, my questions and probing was welcome--especially in the Episcopal Church. Of course, fewer bold and unsupported claims/statements were made, and they didn't just expect you to believe what was stated. However, they still provided no or weak reasons for belief--any belief. I received the impression that church was a buffet table from which you can pick and choose your beliefs as you like. At that point, there was simply no reason to attend anymore.

I also began probing for answers here on CF as to why people believe dogmas or even believe God exists. I was saved, for sure, though you might be doubting that if you're a Christian and reading this (whoa, that feels weird to say ). In my younger adolescent years I had believed in God because I had been told that it was absolutely true that He existed and that Christianity (specifically the brand that I used to subscribe to) was absolutely true. I had always 100% believed in this, but had thought that surely there must be some reason people believe this stuff, and that one day I would discover it. It had just been eluding me, that's all.

Well, time went on and years passed and I never did discover this "hidden reason" that surely all the rest of them have already discovered.

When I asked for objective proof for the existence of God, the answers I received said one of two things:
  1. There is objective proof: here it is.
  2. There is no objective proof; you must have faith.
Those who claimed #1 were usually YECists, so I disregarded their opinions. The non-YECists usually claimed observable miracle situations in real-time, which are actually hoaxes. Those who claimed #2 had some very interesting things to say, and some very subjective things also to say.

Subjective responses within #2: "The only proof is subjective, personal experiences such as answers to prayer or personal revelations or circumstances, but these experiences are enough for me. They satisfy me; they are all I need to believe and have faith."

Interesting responses within #2: First cause argument (which to me only proves pantheism) but seems to be the best one yet; "there is no objective proof for God's existance, but I believe anyway because I want to, basically."

So, based on my investigation into proof for the existence of God, I have concluded that there is no objective evidence. When I discovered that, I at first would not believe it. I'm very cautious about these things. So, I kept searching until I became satisfied. I concluded, finally, that there is no objective evidence for the existence of anything supernatural, much less a God or the Christian God. This does not logically lead to the conclusion that God does not exist, however.

However, I did come across a theory that says that if God exists, he/she/it cannot interfere in the material world because then he/she/it would no longer be supernatural, but natural, and no longer a God ---> therefore there can never be objective proof for God. That seems utterly ridiculous to me. If something supernatural exists, there is nothing hindering it from interfering in the natural realm; it would not lose its supernatural status. There is no "boundary" that separates the two. Such a boundary would negate god-status to begin with.

Moving on...

I have also been exploring other religions in the world, and I have found that they, like Christians, like to use science to make it prove that their religion is correct. In a health class I had a PE teacher, and she did yoga or something, and she liked to claim that Einstein's theories prove her beliefs about mystical forces that she can gather into her body by performing certain movements with her arms. Hindus like to say that modern science (long ages, big bang, etc) proves their religious beliefs.

Ok, wrapping it all up...

When I stopped attending church, I decided that I could never again sit under someone every week to listen to dogma. It didn't make any since to me at all. Why would someone want to go to a church to learn about God or religion, when every church believes something different? The best way to learn the truth about something is to do research about it yourself, and examine the facts, as well as different arguments, and decide which one is the most convincing--not listen to what one person thinks and believes and repeats to "sheep" in the congregation. That's just getting one perspective, and it is most certainly not going to be completely correct.

Church is not a classroom. You cannot raise your hand and ask a question. You must sit and listen and either accept what is said or reject or question it. However, in my fundamentalist church, it was believed that the messages the Pastor preached were from God, so he had to be pretty much right (if he was right with God). So, there was an expectation that you should agree with most of what the pastor said.

But all those preachers who are right with God say something different regardless (they get conflicting messages "from God"), so that shows me that they aren't getting their messages from God, unless God loves confusion and is a nutjob. Preachers say exactly what they believe, not what God is supposedly telling them.

These are some of the key points that led me to my final conclusion, which I will discuss below:
  • Microevolution has occurred and does occur.
  • Macroevolution has occurred, though exactly how is a debated topic. We know natural selection plays a crucial role.
  • The earth is old
  • The universe is old
  • The creation story in Genesis is a myth
  • Mostly everything I was taught in church was a lie
  • YECism is science falsely so called
  • There is no objective proof or evidence for the existence of God
  • Personal experience, circumstantial evidence, and need or desire do not consitute valid reasons for belief
  • There are many different beliefs that exist even within one denomination of one sect of one religion alone
  • There are many different religions that exist in the world
  • YECists, fundamentalists, and many conservative Christians who more strictly adhere to traditional moral values and also disbelieve science in favor of religious ideas about origins and morality use the four problem-areas mentioned somewhere above. I closely witnessed every aspect of this in the Terri Schiavo case, in which they simply denied or distorted anything they did not want to believe because it didn't match up with their religious beliefs. (this reinforced my desire to stay as far away from that thinking as possible, and helped to deconvert me; indeed, it drove the nails into the coffin)
Based on all that I have said, I renounced fundamentalism and literalism very early on in the game, later became a seeker, and now I remain uncertain on what the truth is, though I am certain it is not contained in any one church, or any one denomination, or any one sect of religion, or any single religion for that matter; therefore I have renounced Christianity. I am, to this day therefore, an agnostic and a seeker, and of course, a humanist.

I have concluded that relying on religious belief or faith will not lead one to the truth, whatever that is, because the search is confined to a belief system from which one cannot stray. It is an open mind, an honest attitude, and an objective search for answers that will lead one to the "truth." However, truth cannot be perfectly known.

Therefore, religion is most likely a mechanism that ancient peoples invented to help them explain why things that they could not understand were so, and to help them cope with the difficulties of life. Rather than divine revelation, religion is a human invention. And all the facts conclude this--the existence of so many different religions and religious ideas that contradict one another, the myths and inconsistencies and errors within all religions, and the idea that each one is the only correct one.

Yet, I am open to the idea that maybe all religions and myths point to one universal and unknown spiritual truth that may include the existence of something supernatural.

You may now respond.
 
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Knowledge3

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I learned to not mix my theological beliefs with science. You remind me of what I went through a couple years ago, but I went the darkest times of doubt..I never gave up my personal belief in Jesus. There might as well have been demons and all of kinds of stuff trying to convince me, but I remained a Christian.The stuff I believe is hard-core faith.


So what do you believe as a result of your research? Or what conclusion have you come to?

In my younger adolescent years I had believed in God because I had been told that it was absolutely true that He existed and that Christianity (specifically the brand that I used to subscribe to) was absolutely true.

What are your new reasons for it not being true?
 
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Mechanical Bliss

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It's an interesting autobiographical account relevant to the topics on this forum. I think most of the regulars here remember your "bold, militant, in-your-face Biblical literalist and YECist and fundamentalist" stage. It's interesting that, in hindsight, you attributed this to a certain insecurity and doubt about the beliefs about which you were so militant, and that that insecurity and doubt caused you to seek knowledge and discard outdated concepts. I think that is the case for some other fundamentalist/creationists as well. Questioning and studying is often the enemy of outdated concepts that are held dogmatically and unreasonably. Congratulations on taking the time and courage to study and examine those claims. Stick around now that you're back.

P.S. For future use of your account, you might want to do a little minor editing including a spellcheck.
 
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aeroz19

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Matthew777 said:
You are a humanist now? Well, have fun picnicking with Bertrand Russell. ;)

In all seriousness, Christianity is a reasonable faith.

The Bodily Resurrection of Jesus
Dr. William Lane Craig
http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billcraig/docs/bodily.html

The Evidence For Jesus
Dr. William Lane Craig
http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billcraig/docs/rediscover2.html

The Resurrection: Fact or Fiction?
Pat Zukeran
http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/resurrec.html

Your disprespect for my simple request is not appreciated, and neither are your offensive attempts to recruit me back into the fold.
 
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Jetgirl

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aeroz19 said:
Your disprespect for my simple request is not appreciated, and neither are your offensive attempts to recruit me back into the fold.

Sorry about the post before your Part III, I felt he needed a metaphorical immediate slap upside the head.

I very much enjoyed reading your posts. I was lucky enough to go to church but still have parents that valued critical and independant thinking. I gave up on church, as you did, because I didn't like someone with some ambiguous sort of athority telling me what God said, when I could read the Bible myself, and look at the world He alledgedly created with my own eyes.
 
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Matthew777

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Jetgirl said:
The OP making a polite request is not a good reason?

The atoning blood of Christ is more important than anyone's reason for denial. I was an agnostic/Darwinist/humanist once. I read books by Russell, The Age of Reason, etc. and actually believed it. Looking back, that time of my life was really scary. I constantly thought of death and feared it at all times, believing that if it happened, it would be the end. But when I actually looked into the evidence instead of human opinions, I was glad to find that there really is universal truth and meaning to existence.
 
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Jetgirl

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Matthew777 said:
The atoning blood of Christ is more important than anyone's reason for denial.

Would you like your message to be heard or not?

If you're rude, everyone's ears slam shut like bunker doors, *regardless* of how important the message is.

You... were rude.
 
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Matthew777 said:
The atoning blood of Christ is more important than anyone's reason for denial. I was an agnostic/Darwinist/humanist once. I read books by Russell, The Age of Reason, etc. and actually believed it. Looking back, that time of my life was really scary. I constantly thought of death and feared it at all times, believing that if it happened, it would be the end. But when I actually looked into the evidence instead of human opinions, I was glad to find that there really is universal truth and meaning to existence.

Nice.

2 things.

You ignored a polite request: hardly likely to impact favourably on your attempt at poselytising. Satan would be proud.

Secondly, merely because you were scared of the possibility of a completely natural existence does not mean that there is a God. Of any description.
 
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DailyBlessings

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Your final conclusion? Odd choice of words, for someone who has given up on dogma. ;) Though in reading your conclusion, I realise that you have no intention of closing your eyes and ears. Keep searching, child of God. As with all great questions, the truth is found at neither end of the spectrum, but somewhere in between.
 
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DrunkenWrestler

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Matthew777 said:
The atoning blood of Christ is more important than anyone's reason for denial. I was an agnostic/Darwinist/humanist once. I read books by Russell, The Age of Reason, etc. and actually believed it. Looking back, that time of my life was really scary. I constantly thought of death and feared it at all times, believing that if it happened, it would be the end. But when I actually looked into the evidence instead of human opinions, I was glad to find that there really is universal truth and meaning to existence.
high_horse.jpg
 
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Matthew777

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Praxiteles said:
You ignored a polite request: hardly likely to impact favourably on your attempt at poselytising. Satan would be proud.

One cannot prostelytize to a person who's already known the truth.
If you think about it, what could be more impolite than the rejection of the Infinite?

Praxiteles said:
Secondly, merely because you were scared of the possibility of a completely natural existence does not mean that there is a God.

If my choice were merely motived by fear, I would not still have faith. It is the evidence, as I said before, that made me convinced. I dabbled in Buddhism, Islam, Rastafarianism, etc. etc. etc. but found only the Christian faith to be supported by historical fact.
 
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