My Final Conclusion about Science and Religion

Something tells me my thread is going to get deleted...

I am logging out now, people. I hope my thread is still here tomorrow when I log back in...

mikeynov said:

Copout.

Click to expand...

It is not a copout. You are expecting me to undertake all the work I did for myself for you. If I had relied entirely on the posts of internet forums to find the meaning of life, I'd still be popping shrooms while writing a Buddhist interpretation of Star Wars.

Matthew777 said:

It is not a copout. You are expecting me to undertake all the work I did for myself for you. If I had relied entirely on the posts of internet forums to find the meaning of life, I'd still be popping shrooms while writing a Buddhist interpretation of Star Wars.

Click to expand...

I asked you one question, and that question was how you empirically test for Christ's supernatural resurrection within the social science of history.

You have repeatedly said something to the effect of "by the same standards that we establish other historical happenings," but you haven't even indicated what those standards are, and then shown how you could logically apply those standards to Christ's resurrection.

I'm not asking for a full book explanation - even a basic explanation for how you test for supernatural claims throughout history would do.

aeroz19 said:

Not sure what this insult-sounding remark was supposed to mean. To mean it sounds like, "well, it's soooooooooooo obvious that you should have gotten it." Which only proves his point...

Click to expand...

It was an invitation for a thorough investigation of the facts instead of relying on internet posters to give all the answers.

aeroz19 said:

You were a freethinking individual. Now, you are not.

Click to expand...

Did you know that the term "freethinker" originally applied to Christians who had faith but doubted the authority of the Church and instead decided to find out the reliability of Scripture on their own?


As for my membership in Orthodoxy, it took a great deal of thought and investigation before I realized that it is the most Bible-based and apostolically supported church. If one carefully studies history, it would be found that the Orthodox Church is the direct descendent of the original Christian communities. If it were all about emotions, I would have stayed at the non-denom church that I went to after converting from agnosticism.

aeroz19 said:

Something tells me my thread is going to get deleted...

I am logging out now, people. I hope my thread is still here tomorrow when I log back in...

Click to expand...

It better not get deleted, or even locked. Quite frankly, I'd rather erase all my posts than have that happen.

This was a very personal thread and, imho, an important one for other people going through what you are.

You gave into your spiritual/emotional needs. You comprimised your search and your methods to satisfy your needs. I have also heard that the Orthodox Church has awesome services and makes one feel enveloped in the presence of God and of truth and genuine experience of God. One is made instantly to feel in the presence of holiness. Most likely, you experienced this and were overtaken with it all. The experience, coupled with your spiritual/emotional needs (you mentioned drug use in your journal, for example; this indicates some kind of need for structure) and you latched onto it. It made you happy, and so you stick to it.

Click to expand...

Precisely! This is how we agnostics and atheists see it.

For us religion does not solve anything, and we have a right to think that way. But, more often than not, as it happened with me tonight, religious fanatics often take the argument like this:

Fanatic: I'm right!
Me: Well... what's your argument again?
Fanataic: God exists!
Me: Can you give me objective evidence?
Fanatic: I don't have to, you only need faith!
Me: I don't work on faith.
Fanatic: You just don't know God
Me: Once again, can you provide any objective evidence?
Fanatic: I'm right! You're wrong!
Me: What?
Fanatic: You'll burn in hell!

And yes that happened with me tonight.

Didn't christ teach to live and let live? Or was that Ghandi? Either way, it is no good to be closed-minded about other opinions.

I mean if anyone provided any actual evidence for a god, or against evolution, or against the big bang, or even naturalistic explainations, then I'd LOVE to hear it.

The whole world would like to know about it. In fact, you'd probably become world famous and get a Nobel prize if you could do any of those things.

But the hand is a dud, the holder is bluffing, and all that he has going for him is the chance to bluff everyone into a fold. And when someone calls him out and he can't back it up, thats it.

Yet with religion it's different. Often the holder is so dogmatic that he leaves the table and burns his cards lest anyone find out he was bluffing.

It better not get deleted, or even locked. Quite frankly, I'd rather erase all my posts than have that happen.

This was a very personal thread and, imho, an important one for other people going through what you are.

Click to expand...

And I've been there to some extent too.

The search for truth should never be an apologetic one.

Valkhorn said:

Fanatic: I'm right!
Me: Well... what's your argument again?
Fanataic: God exists!
Me: Can you give me objective evidence?
Fanatic: I don't have to, you only need faith!
Me: I don't work on faith.
Fanatic: You just don't know God
Me: Once again, can you provide any objective evidence?
Fanatic: I'm right! You're wrong!
Me: What?
Fanatic: You'll burn in hell!

Click to expand...

Yea, a person said to me that God could smite me off this Earth this second, and I still haven't figured out what he hoped to achieve by threatening me, conversion? Pfft

As someone stated before, welcome to the dark side aeroz. Thanks for your candor.

What is remarkable to me is that after reading your story, there will be some who still beleive that you deserve eternal suffering.

And Why?

Because you've come to disbeleive in the Christian god. It doesn't seem to matter to them (or their god for that matter) that you've reached your conclusion through what can only be described as honest and thorough inquiry.

This is a real shame.

Yea, a person said to me that God could smite me off this Earth this second, and I still haven't figured out what he hoped to achieve by threatening me, conversion? Pfft

Click to expand...

Because you've come to disbeleive in the Christian god. It doesn't seem to matter to them (or their god for that matter) that you've reached your conclusion through what can only be described as honest and thorough inquiry.

This is a real shame.

Click to expand...

Isn't there a commandment against that?

Dark_Lite said:

Hurrah for YECism annihilating another person's faith.....

Click to expand...

why do you blame this on YEC? I've seen this comment many times before trying to blame YEC for turning someone away from christianity when in almost every case the person who lefted usually points out their christianity was nothing but dead weight which now they are free from. I find that following Jesus blindly isn't what the scriptures teaches. John chapter 6 revealed this. At the beginning of this chapter Jesus feeded the five thousand men which continued to follow him. He finally turn to the people and preached v53 " Verily,verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat tha fresh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you." Then in v61 "When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Do this offend you?" v64"... 'But there are some of you that believe not.' Then in verse 66 "From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him."
So it seems Jesus himself didn't want people to follow him just because they were following the crowd. He often thin out the crowd with some kind of spiritual truth. While I agree that God didn't tell us much in Genesis and that he had godly men in the past to write down scriptures each with their own personalities yet Does this offend you? I also agree that a lot of preachers probably know little about hardcore science especially concerning evolution yet does this offend you that God often uses people who are not know-it-alls yet live more down to earth? the scriptures plainly claims that there isn't many wise called as for one reason knowledge builds up pride which God rejects. Of course there are some men saved who are very intelligent but majority will reject God in their life. does this offend you God chooses the foolish thing to confound the wise, and the weak to confound the strong?

I heard testimonies of those in my church who thought at one time they were christians (every one of them was raised in church) which later in life realize they weren't make this statement: " I had to see myself lost but I really saw my need to get saved."
Atleast now Aeros is now honest with herself to where she stands instead just following what she was taught as a child which hopefully will lead her to the Lord.Hopefully she will get to the point like Peter in verse 68 after Jeus asked if they were also going away :" Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the owrds of eternal life. and we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

aeroz19 said:

Why? I don't get it.

Click to expand...

I just can't believe some of the stuff I read in here. I mean I really just sit here and shake my head sometimes. How you peple can be so blahze` about God and whether or not He exists... You wanna know if He is real, I just spent 30 minutes speaking to Him, and Him to me. He is with me, now. I have this amazing relationship with Him. And then a few days ago I log onto the "Christian" website and all you people wanna do is debate. Yes, No, Maybe, Is He there, Is He not there, Is He real, do you know Him, creation, evolution, big bang, six days, WHATEVER!!

If most of the folks on this site would put as much energy into whatever their belief system is as they do trying to defend it, they could CHANGE THE WORLD!!!!!!!!

I wanted to talk with aeroz on YM before commenting on this thread, but this is just too salient.

Dark_Lite said:

Hurrah for YECism annihilating another person's faith.....

Click to expand...

Yep. That was my concern all along. Aeroz's faith was clearly important to her and I hopped her venture into serious consideration of the issues wouldn't call a loss of faith, but more a change in perception. Vance, gluadys, etc. are vindicated again, and this time before many of our eyes, not just with ex post facto posts by non-believers. I'm not dissappointed in aeroz's faith crisis per se, I'm disappointed in it resulting from something as insipid and false as YECism.

I really like my Cosmos quote sig line, but I think I might have to resurrect one I used for several months - "Warning! A literal interpretation of Genesis is dangerous to Christian faith."

sbhaden said:

And then a few days ago I log onto the "Christian" website and all you people wanna do is debate. Yes, No, Maybe, Is He there, Is He not there, Is He real, do you know Him, creation, evolution, big bang, six days, WHATEVER!!

Click to expand...

This is the debate section. There are evil heathens here. If you want some all-around back-slapping and praising, wander on over to Christians Only area.

Congratulations for your conversations with God. To me, they sound as likely as people conversing with aliens through the micro-chip in their head. Why should we view your claim differently?

aeroz19 said:

Which gives me an idea. I will dig up all those old texts from 9th and 10th grade that I used in highschool, and I'll show you guys exactly what I was taught. We aught to have some fun with that one. We'll go through each point and refute them all.

Click to expand...

Were the courses from Bob Jones?

You have a very good story, Aeroz. It can be very difficult when you lose your faith, internally and in your dealings with other people. You may find out that some of your friends will no longer be interested in associating with a godless heathen. Best of luck, and stay strong.

Matthew777 said:

I could change your dipers for you but I believe that you at least have enough intelligence to find out on your own.

Click to expand...

Man, I really miss being 19, and knowing that I knew everything about everything.

Somehow I lost that when I joined the real world though....

sbhaden said:

I just can't believe some of the stuff I read in here. I mean I really just sit here and shake my head sometimes. How you peple can be so blahze` about God and whether or not He exists... You wanna know if He is real, I just spent 30 minutes speaking to Him, and Him to me. He is with me, now. I have this amazing relationship with Him.

Click to expand...

Classic textbook fallacy of circular logic.

Great posts, aeroz19.

You know, your story is so very similar to mine and so many others I have seen on this site and others. I have read several hundred "deconversion" stories. Yes, most of them are about those who really weren't all that much in xstianity and they finally decided not to sit on the fence. But the stories of the "true believers" are far more interesting. They all reach a point where they decided to think about their religion rather than just accept it. And they came to their deconversion conclusion not because they wanted to reject god or authority, but because they saw that it really didn't make sense.

The Freedon from Religion Foundation has an award: the emperor has no clothes. So terribly apt for all religions. They have no clothes, and their adhearents just don't want to know about it.

Glad you came out of the darkness and into the real light. Too bad its so hard to get others to follow.

And-U-Say said:

Glad you came out of the darkness and into the real light. Too bad its so hard to get others to follow.

Click to expand...

As an atheist and evilutionist, I feel like I've done my job.

Do'h! I said too much.

sbhaden said:

I just can't believe some of the stuff I read in here. I mean I really just sit here and shake my head sometimes. How you peple can be so blahze` about God and whether or not He exists... You wanna know if He is real, I just spent 30 minutes speaking to Him, and Him to me.

Click to expand...

You know what, sbhaden?

...I used to do just that.

He is with me, now. I have this amazing relationship with Him.

Click to expand...

I have been there. I know what you are referring to; I have experienced it myself. Though you choose to deny this truth, I know it is true because I remember the experience. Indeed, it seems very real and powerful when one experiences it.

And then a few days ago I log onto the "Christian" website and all you people wanna do is debate. Yes, No, Maybe, Is He there, Is He not there, Is He real, do you know Him, creation, evolution, big bang, six days, WHATEVER!!

Click to expand...

Yeah, I know. It's crazy. But people who use reasoning, rather than just simple faith, do that stuff.

If most of the folks on this site would put as much energy into whatever their belief system is as they do trying to defend it, they could CHANGE THE WORLD!!!!!!!!

Click to expand...

So, if they just stopped thinking about what they believe and why they believed it, and just accepted it (stop thinking, just believe; be still and know that He is God), then it would all be ok, right?

Doubt it. We'd change the world alright. We'd go back to before the enlightenment era and be at war with one another because each and every one of us believes our faith to be supremely right, while thinking all the others to be of the devil and perverting the truth.

I know you think I am lost. I know exactly why you think so, and I know what you are thinking.

USincognito said:

I wanted to talk with aeroz on YM before commenting on this thread, but this is just too salient.

Yep. That was my concern all along. Aeroz's faith was clearly important to her and I hopped her venture into serious consideration of the issues wouldn't call a loss of faith, but more a change in perception. Vance, gluadys, etc. are vindicated again, and this time before many of our eyes, not just with ex post facto posts by non-believers. I'm not dissappointed in aeroz's faith crisis per se, I'm disappointed in it resulting from something as insipid and false as YECism.

I really like my Cosmos quote sig line, but I think I might have to resurrect one I used for several months - "Warning! A literal interpretation of Genesis is dangerous to Christian faith."

Click to expand...

Don't feel bad, US. The Christian faith is overrated anyway. Any confidence and peace of mind is gained by refraining from questioning and not thinking about your beliefs. Those who have the most confidence and peace of mind are those whom naturally, by their nature, do not question or ask or probe the unknown. I have seen this first-hand all my life.