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My Final Conclusion about Science and Religion

Kripost

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radorth said:
I'm not a Muslim. And of course if you are referring to the Catholics who never even had a New Testament to read, then we I wouldn't call them Christians. That would be unfair and irrational. Now if they read the NT regularly and did those things, then you have an argument. Unfortunately, the "slaughter" mysteriously stops when the NT is widely published.

<snipped>

Rad

The problem with your criteria for Christian is that it would imply Stephen arom acts cannot be a christian, since he would not have the New Testament to read.

Another error is in saying that Unfortunately, the "slaughter" mysteriously stops when the NT was widely published. Firstly, it was already well read in the byzantine empire, at least among the literate. If you are referring to the impact of Gutenberg's work, do remember there are persecutions and counter -persecutions in Catholic and various protestant faction, the thirty years war. The only ones who were not involved were the Eastern Orthodox.
 
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GodsSamus

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aeroz19 said:
Part I: The History, Process, and Education

I joined CF on May 17, 2004. It was then that I began my quest for knowledge and the truth that this knowledge would lead me to. Before that date arrived I was ready to burst with long-unanswered questions about science and religion. Doubts and deep fears penetrated my mind (and yes, soul as well) and demanded answers. I was curious--dying to get answers; nothing could stop me. CF was the place I could go to connect with others who might have the answers. I knew that no one I had access to in real life could or would be willing to help me. I was surrounded by YECists and biblical literalists who were satisfied by the simple answers they received in church about science and religion--including my folks.

But I wasn't satisfied. And that was the problem.

I started out as a bold, militant, in-your-face Biblical literalist and YECist and fundamentalist when I came here, though I was filled with doubts and fears that I could be totally wrong about everything (I'd been fearing that since I was 13, but kept the status quo due to lack of access to material from the "other" side). Those doubts were fully confronted here, in these forums. I asked every question, explored every weak point in my beliefs, and genuinely sought to understand the thinking and theories that opposed my beliefs...

And that's where the trouble began.

I started to realize that people and the world were not as I had been told they were. And then more trouble began. I began to wonder, if they weren't as I had been told they were, then what were the true nature and state of things? And as I kept probing and searching, I found that my beliefs about people, about my country, and about science and God and the Bible--indeed everything--could not stand up to reality, and so began to crumble.

(Damn, I am hearing all this narrated through the voice of Paul Harvey...)

When I made my way to the C&E forum, I thought I'd be able to show all the evolutionists wrong. I imagined I'd become a mighty voice for the YECist side of things, and I had fully expected to see the YECists crushing the evolutionists.

Oh, but how disappointed I was, when I saw the true state of things.

What I saw were weak arguments (at the time, while I was a YECist, I believed the arguments were weak) going up against counter-arguments that I had only caught slight glimpses of before; many I had simply never seen before. The only view I had of evolution was that presented to me from a YECist perspective in YECist writings and books. When I began to seriously and open-mindedly consider (which happened right away, but I didn't want anyone to know that) the arguments made by evolutionists, they made a lot of sense to me. In fact, they made more sense to me than anything I had been told before by YECists.

For example, throughout the years, as I was reading YECist literature, I would be slightly frustrated when I would read bold claims that would have no evidence to back them up. Just the claim. I had a decision to make: accept the claim, or doubt it and linger on the fence. I often accepted it because I was a YECist, but the acceptance caused intellectual discomfort, and emotional discomfort as well, because my curiosity was not adequately satisfied--and it angered me. This happened frequently, not just in the YECist literature that I read, but also in church during the service. Claims were constantly made--bold claims. I was frustratingly left the decision to accept them or reject them, and I often grudgingly accepted. Whenever I took the route of searching for evidence to back a claim, either in church or in YECist literature, I would be presented a tract, pamphlet, article, or website with YECist or fundamentalist appolagetic literature. I would feel a little better after reading the literature, but would still be left with questions and doubts that never went away.

And when I came here to CF, and read the arguments by evolutionists, I encountered online material and book suggestions that simply overwhelmed me. I had never before confronted so much material. Just one highly-focused topic alone would require much reading and deep thought, and I would find links that led to more links that led to more links and so forth. The material was all over the place, and I often encountered material that was written on or above the college-level. All summer was spent (working a job and) digging frantically into the material. It was overwhelming.

It wasn't long before it became apparent that I had absolutely no clue what evolution was.

After this somewhat embarrassing realization, I decided to find out immediately what it was. Thus the old thread: "Atheists and Agnostics, Now it's Your Turn." Still remember the title. And upon learning what it was, I thought that it seemed entirely possible for it to have happened or to happen now. I asked for proof from evolutionists, and they gave it to me, especially lucaspa. Upon finding out he was actually a Christian and an evolutionist, I marvelled. He cited a lot of cases--not just arguments that it could happen (as YECists often wrote in their literature "this or that could have happened, and therefore we know it did") but cases in which it was observed to have happened.

And that blew me away. Microevolution did happen. At least some forms of variation and modification did occur, and have been observed (recently!) to have happened. Most conservative Christians at least are open to microevolution, but I had not been. To my thinking, it should not have happened.

I was stunned by this new reality. Microevolution occurs. I immediately thought, "Well, if micro can happen, why not macro?" I then printed out some articles/papers on the natural limits of micro-evolution (the argument that macro cannot happen in nature because there are natural limits that prevent this). I also read material that argued that it could happen. All the evidence from paleontolgy was above my head and I had no framework with which to understand or investigate it, so I largely ignored it.

After educating myself on the topic of evolution, examining the arguments from both sides, and giving myself a period of time to mentally digest and process the new data, I decided that microevolution does in fact occur, and that it was entirely possible for macroevolution to occur, though not all evolutionist scientists today agree on exactly how macroevolution works. And this is what I think to this day.

In any conclusion there is a process of reason in which one must choose to accept or deny arguments, facts, or both. Sometimes the arguments or facts may be so persuasive that there is hardly a decision at all; the choice is obvious. And in other cases, the facts and arguments may seem to be nearly balanced, making one's decision in which one to believe more difficult. In my conclusions about evolution, I chose to reject the arguments used by YECists because there were problems with them. And here is a list of such problems I encountered, in order of frequency and magnitude:
  1. YECists misrepresented evolutionists' statements/quotes/arguments
  2. YECists ignored key facts, arguments, and logic
  3. YECists used incorrect data to support their positions
  4. YECists outright lied
While in the intellectual process of decision-making on evolution, I was shocked at discovering these problems, and I became offended, enraged, etc. At that time I was dealing with emotional stress, having discovered that all that time I had been deceived into believing in YECism. It became evident to me, increasingly, that the YECist literature I had been reading all those years was set up more as propoganda than educational material.

For a time I severely doubted God, and underwent some emotional/psychological/spiritual trauma, but such a state was shortlived and lasted less than a week (though the doubting God part lasted longer).

Please do not respond until I have completed parts II and III.

If macroevolution occurs, how come we NEVER see an ape produce a non-ape? So what makes you think it happened a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away?

Btw, how did you get your information? Did you just go to a public school to learn both sides? If so, you haven't been educated: you've been brainwashed.
 
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DrunkenWrestler

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GodsSamus said:
If macroevolution occurs, how come we NEVER see an ape produce a non-ape?
That's not a prediction made by macroevolution.

you've been brainwashed.
vader_irony.jpg
 
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mikeynov

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GodsSamus said:
If macroevolution occurs, how come we NEVER see an ape produce a non-ape? So what makes you think it happened a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away?

Btw, how did you get your information? Did you just go to a public school to learn both sides? If so, you haven't been educated: you've been brainwashed.

But we've observed macroevolution. Denying that is tantamount to lying.

And common descent predicts that daughter branches will always be subsets of their parent branch - so an ape will always beget modified subsets of apes.

Brainwashing is definitely a relevent factor. But you've failed to identify who's really doing it.
 
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Hungry Hungry Hippo

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I use to believe in the historical Jesus and think he was a marvelous teacher. I've read a few books, including Doherty's "The Jesus Puzzle", which have lead me to disbelieve in the biblical Jesus. From what I've studied, much of the new testament was reverse-engineered by writers who scoured the OT for prophetic texts.

Anyways, welcome to the dark size, Aeroz. People will have all sorts of misconceptions about your beliefs, just like when you were a Christian. :)

Your anti-testimony is somewhat similar to mine. I came from a more liberal church though.
 
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aeroz19

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GodsSamus said:
If macroevolution occurs, how come we NEVER see an ape produce a non-ape?

Oh, my gosh. It's a hovindite.

Btw, how did you get your information?

From the devil.

Did you just go to a public school to learn both sides?

Devil's High School, Satanic School of Lies and Deception, Massachusetts

If so, you haven't been educated: you've been brainwashed.

Nevah!
 
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Hungry Hungry Hippo

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GodsSamus said:
If macroevolution occurs, how come we NEVER see an ape produce a non-ape? So what makes you think it happened a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away?

Hopefully you're shrooming.
 
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aeroz19

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GodsSamus said:
Btw, how did you get your information? Did you just go to a public school to learn both sides?

This proves that you didn't read my posts at all; they clearly indicate where I got my info.

By the way, I was homeschooled until the 10th grade; after that I went to College. In College I received zero education on evolution because I took math, engineering, etc., (btw, just got an A.S. degree in Engineering too) no biology or any life sciences. In homeschool, I was told hovind-level lies in science.

Which gives me an idea. I will dig up all those old texts from 9th and 10th grade that I used in highschool, and I'll show you guys exactly what I was taught. We aught to have some fun with that one. We'll go through each point and refute them all.
 
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aeroz19

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Hungry Hungry Hippo said:
I use to believe in the historical Jesus and think he was a marvelous teacher. I've read a few books, including Doherty's "The Jesus Puzzle", which have lead me to disbelieve in the biblical Jesus. From what I've studied, much of the new testament was reverse-engineered by writers who scoured the OT for prophetic texts.

I'd like to discuss this with you sometime.

Anyways, welcome to the dark size, Aeroz.People will have all sorts of misconceptions about your beliefs, just like when you were a Christian. :)

Yeah, it has begun already.

Your anti-testimony is somewhat similar to mine. I came from a more liberal church though.

In some ways you were lucky, and in some ways not, then. ;) I immensely enjoy knowing exactly what, why, and when YECists and fundies are thinking and planning. I know their thought processes; I can almost read their minds.

I feel like an x-borg or something...
 
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Hungry Hungry Hippo

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Realizing that God is absent/currently irrelevant, for me, was liberating, eye opening, and scary. Do you experience these emotions as well?

You really do see everything through a different eye when you no longer believe in God though. For example, you never have to wonder "Why is God doing this to me?!"

Some things make more sense, and some new questions emerge. However, after thinking things through, I'd usually realize that those questions still apply to a theistic worldview. The biggest questions: Why this? Why that? Why God? Why the universe? Why am I here? What purpose do I serve?

Blah, I've had enough of this brain diarrhea session. Oh yeah, back on topic. Darn Pistons.
 
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Matthew777

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mikeynov said:
This is pointless. You won't and can't cough up an empirical test for Christ's resurrection 2000 years ago (because that's impossible),

It is highly possible and I have already presented it to you several times. Scrutinize the Gospels with the same standards that one would use to realize the reliability of any ancient historical document.
The resurrection of Christ is one of the most well evidenced facts of ancient history. Now, you could with an open mind, actually study the works of those who have already investigated the facts and then form an opinion or you can continue with your false intellectual silliness. In all honesty, you know next to nothing of what you are talking about and it shows. As I've said before, the least you could do is read an introductory book on the subject and perhaps compile some refutations.
 
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mikeynov

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Scrutinize the Gospels with the same standards that one would use to realize the reliability of any ancient historical document.

But the point is you won't elaborate on these standards, or the specific test at all, and how you would apply this standard to test for the supernatural within empirical science. You just lamely shove this issue onto somebody else (ie tell me to go take a hike and get my education from your apologetic sources) instead of defending it yourself. And you constantly do stuff like that.

The resurrection of Christ is one of the most well evidenced facts of ancient history. Now, you could with an open mind, actually study the works of those who have already investigated the facts and then form an opinion or you can continue with your false intellectual silliness. In all honesty, you know next to nothing of what you are talking about and it shows.

This is the exact attitude I was talking about in my post. When you jump on the next bandwagon and undoubtedly treat it with the same self-evident arrogance, I'll remind you of this, if I'm still around.

Note also I never claimed to be any expert in biblical historicity. My only point is that your claim of historicity of a supernatural event 2000 years ago is beyond the boundaries of scientific inquiry. I don't need to be an expert to realize that.
 
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Matthew777

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mikeynov said:
But the point is you won't elaborate on these standards, or the specific test at all, and how you would apply this standard to test for the supernatural within empirical science.

I could change your dipers for you but I believe that you at least have enough intelligence to find out on your own.


mikeynov said:
This is the exact attitude I was talking about in my post. When you jump on the next bandwagon and undoubtedly treat it with the same self-evident arrogance, I'll remind you of this, if I'm still around.

I am a freethinking individual. I spent a great deal of time, thought, and anguish in search for the universal. When studying the world religions and human ideologies, I always came back to the question of what can actually be proven. I do not say this in arrogance and I do not say this as the member of any bandwagon but the resurrection of Christ is one of the most well evidenced events of ancient history. However, unless we are able to also establish that we live in a theistic universe, the event itself is nothing more than an anomaly.
 
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aeroz19

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Hungry Hungry Hippo said:
Realizing that God is absent/currently irrelevant, for me, was liberating, eye opening, and scary. Do you experience these emotions as well?

Well, considering that I am a recent deconvert, I don't think all that has fully set in yet. But I can tell you that I can sense a new form of liberation, and a new mental and intellectual state that feels..."natural." If that makes any sense...

You really do see everything through a different eye when you no longer believe in God though. For example, you never have to wonder "Why is God doing this to me?!"

Actually, I never used to wonder about that anyway. I used to think that God was sorta distant and didn't control every aspect of my life.

Some things make more sense,

A LOT more things make sense. Nearly all my questions have been answered.

and some new questions emerge. However, after thinking things through, I'd usually realize that those questions still apply to a theistic worldview. The biggest questions: Why this? Why that? Why God? Why the universe? Why am I here? What purpose do I serve?

Yep, those are still there.

Blah, I've had enough of this brain diarrhea session. Oh yeah, back on topic. Darn Pistons.

Ok? lol
 
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aeroz19

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Matthew777 said:
I could change your dipers for you but I believe that you at least have enough intelligence to find out on your own.

Not sure what this insult-sounding remark was supposed to mean. To mean it sounds like, "well, it's soooooooooooo obvious that you should have gotten it." Which only proves his point...

I am a freethinking individual.

You were a freethinking individual. Now, you are not.

I spent a great deal of time, thought, and anguish in search for the universal. When studying the world religions and human ideologies, I always came back to the question of what can actually be proven.

You gave into your spiritual/emotional needs. You comprimised your search and your methods to satisfy your needs. I have also heard that the Orthodox Church has awesome services and makes one feel enveloped in the presence of God and of truth and genuine experience of God. One is made instantly to feel in the presence of holiness. Most likely, you experienced this and were overtaken with it all. The experience, coupled with your spiritual/emotional needs (you mentioned drug use in your journal, for example; this indicates some kind of need for structure) and you latched onto it. It made you happy, and so you stick to it.
 
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mikeynov

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I could change your dipers for you but I believe that you at least have enough intelligence to find out on your own.

Copout.

I am a freethinking individual. I spent a great deal of time, thought, and anguish in search for the universal. When studying the world religions and human ideologies, I always came back to the question of what can actually be proven. I do not say this in arrogance and I do not say this as the member of any bandwagon but the resurrection of Christ is one of the most well evidenced events of ancient history. However, unless we are able to also establish that we live in a theistic universe, the event itself is nothing more than an anomoly.

But it's more than this, Matthew.

Let's say for a second that we live in a "theistic" universe (which is a bit of an abstraction depending on how you define deities).

Now, for one, there's no particular reason any one religion has to have "the answer" in regards to that deity. So systematically disqualifying other religions, as you suggested, is blatantly fallacious, and doesn't strength the Christian position abstractly. Though you never elaborated why, say, Islam isn't as merited, or any of the other thousands of world religions or supernatural accounts documented throughout history.

But ignoring that for a second, let's say that you establish that people around Jesus' time all wrote an account of a guy named Jesus being resurrected.

How could you possibly verify that they were right? Because multiple people said something happened doesn't mean that it had to, particularly when there's good reason to doubt the nature of those claims, given the position of bias involved.

Think of it like this. Say we decided to make up a story like Jesus', base it on some modern day prophet (there's plenty of examples). Say one was killed, for whatever reason, and we all write a mutual account of this guy performing magic and coming back from the dead.

How could, say, future historians determine whether what we wrote now actually pertains to reality? Should they treat supernatural claims with the same nonchalant acceptance as they would, say, an account of who won tonight's basketball championship? In general, extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence - a convergence of people saying it's so, imho, doesn't qualify by a longshot. This is strengthened when most of your sources are religious followers of the individual in question.

The most you could ever conclude is that religious disciples around the time of Jesus said he was crucified and resurrected. That's the limit of empirical science right there. Because at that point, there's literally no way to test for the supernatural claim - the best we can do is that people at the right/place time said it did happen.

Now, I'm guessing Craig is a bit quick to the punch to dismiss other belief systems, and if we really wanted to look at the history of supernatural claims made, you'd have a lot of contenders. By your apparant standards, UFO abductions are a reality - we have more independent observers of UFOs and abduction, including mutual, shared reports, than we ever had for biblical miracles. Similarly, there are real accounts of people in tribal cultures agreeing that magical acts are performed by shamans, in front of everybody. Sometimes, these accounts are written down.

So when I ask for any real test to differentiate between claims of supernatural acts and the fact that people simply said it happens, all you've really done is blow me off. If you seriously think that supernatural claims should be treated the same as natural claims when looking at history, then I'm not honestly sure what to say.
 
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