My fear of Proverbs

[RobertZ]

I am sure not this passage in proverbs is talking about hardening themselves to the point of not caring , since these people are crying out for help,to no avail.
Yet Jesus says He will cast no one out that comes to Him and invites all to come and is longsuffering and merciful and says whosoever will may come.Therefore thoses pastors must be wrong about what they are saying.
So where is this place where weeping does no good?
Jesus says whosoever will, may come and drink freely from the water of life,therefore all who want salvation just come.
blessings
annrobert

Ann I hear what your saying and agree that those who sincerely come have nothing to worry about. However there are those who God deals with over and over again who choose to not listen to him and there will come a time in life where that person will wish they had listened and they will not be able to find him in their time of need.

Its dangerous to put off salvation and repentance not just because you could die without Christ but also because you may reach the point that he doesnt deal with you anymore.

I wouldnt say that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord does so out of Holy Spirit conviction.


"Not everyone who says unto me Lord Lord will enter the Kingdom of God".


Im sorry to be so negative but I feel I have reason to worry.

 

[SoldierOfSoul]

They cant, they would be crying out to God in vain, they would be crying out to God only because they were about to perish. This isnt true, sincere repentance that the Holy Spirit grants a person.

This is true, sincere repentance is coming to Christ as a worthless sinner, but knowing that He loves you so much as to die in your place and you are made willing by the Holy Spirit to receive this love through the pardoning power of the blood of Christ. You have the desire Robert all you must do accept this love that has been offered to you in Jesus. Like that scripture I gave you said, God is not slack concerning His promise but is longsuffering toward us, He doesn't want any to perish but for all to come to repentance! I don't see how you don't see these wonderful words of life Robert, open your heart and receive the love that has been offered to you.

 

[annrobert]

I think hell and weeping and wailing could also be described as fear and calamity.

 

[Jesuslovesme29]

Amen! That is the best way to learn what the scriptures mean Robert, by reading the bible yourself and letting the Holy Spirit reveal its meaning personaly to you.

.

I respect Dr. McGee, he has helped me a lot in my walk with Christ but that doesn't mean I must agree with everything he says. I have heard him speak many times and I know for a fact (like keryakos said) that he believes as long as you still desire salvation (which is implanted by the Holy Spirit) then there is still much hope for you to attain and receive it. Christ saves by love Robert, and He loves you with an everlasting love, He only wants you to acknowledge that love and accept Him at His word that He will save all who come to Him in repentance and faith.

Just so I make it clear I am not saying anything bad about Mcgee, while I do not agree with his out of context interpretation of proverbs, I am sure he means well

Thanks everyone for your positive replys, I appreciate it very much. I guess I just cant get some things out of my mind that seem to bother me about this particular passage in Proverbs.

Ann, I hear what your saying about the wailing and nashing of teeth in Hell but I dont believe that this is what this passage of Proverbs is speaking on in regards to fear and calamity.


I see it this way, wisdom is personafied as the spirit of the Lord in Proverbs and the spirit of the Lord is the Holy Spirit, I think we can all agree on that. While I think this passage on wisdom could fit many scenarios I dont think its impossible that it couldnt possibly be talking about salvation as well since the (Spirit of the Lord) Holy Spirit is what leads a person to salvation.


The Holy Spirit cries out to the sinner to turn, turn at his reproof but the hardened sinner doesnt listen and eventually the hardened sinner could reach a point in this life that the Holy Spirit stops dealing with that person. Later in life that same person could one day see a need for salvation (Plane crashing down or some calamity like that) and then not be able to obtain the salvation because the Holy Spirit has forsaken the arrogant hardened sinner.

Fear and calamity (which means trouble or danger) is what humans get when they think their wisdom is greater than God's. It is what happens when we refuse to seek the counsel of God.

You cannot put salvation in the middle of proverbs, it is not about salvation it is about wisdom and living right.

Things we need to take into consideration before going into scripture are things like, what is the story about, what was happening over 2000 years ago that caused this book to be made, who was this book even written to, and in light of all that information we take it to Him, this is a perfect example of seeking His wisdom in this case pertaining to scriptures)

If we fail to do that, calamity will arise, it can cause alot of problems.

BTW it isnt just vernon mcgee who see's this passage of Proverbs in this light, a lot of pastors agree that it has to do with the sinner hardening himself against the Spirit of the Lord.

Yes someone can harden themselves to the Lord, but this is not proverbs lol

 

[RobertZ]

I think hell and weeping and wailing could also be described as fear and calamity.

That may be true but this isnt what Solomon had in mind when he was writing this passage of scripture.

 

[RobertZ]

This is true, sincere repentance is coming to Christ as a worthless sinner, but knowing that He loves you so much as to die in your place and you are made willing by the Holy Spirit to receive this love through the pardoning power of the blood of Christ. You have the desire Robert all you must do accept this love that has been offered to you in Jesus. Like that scripture I gave you said, God is not slack concerning His promise but is longsuffering toward us, He doesn't want any to perish but for all to come to repentance! I don't see how you don't see these wonderful words of life Robert, open your heart and receive the love that has been offered to you.

But Soldier my problem is what I said earlier, I reached a point in my sins to where God stopped convicting me with his Holy Spirit.

I didnt cry out until I felt my whole world crashing down on me (my own personal plane crash) but like proverbs states at that point they will seek me diligently but will not find me.

Believe me, I am kicking myself for not listening to the Holy Spirit earlier in life while he was still striving with me.


I am covered in guilt and unforgiven sins, I cant find forgiveness and this is horrible. Just horrible.

 

[RobertZ]

Yes someone can harden themselves to the Lord, but this is not proverbs lol

But it is, the spirit of the Lord is wisdom himself.


"Because I called and you refused, I stretched out my hand and no one paid attention; And you neglected all my counsel And did not want my reproof; I will also laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your dread comes

 

[SoldierOfSoul]

But Soldier my problem is what I said earlier, I reached a point in my sins to where God stopped convicting me with his Holy Spirit.

I didnt cry out until I felt my whole world crashing down on me (my own personal plane crash) but like proverbs states at that point they will seek me diligently but will not find me.

Believe me, I am kicking myself for not listening to the Holy Spirit earlier in life while he was still striving with me.


I am covered in guilt and unforgiven sins, I cant find forgiveness and this is horrible. Just horrible.

Well it seems to me that you hate your sins and that your regret your decisions, that sounds like a repentant heart to me (and you would not have that heart if the Holy Spirit had left you). Are you so sure you know how the Holy Spirit works? What if all this is His working for you to finally come to the cross?

 

[SoldierOfSoul]

But it is, the spirit of the Lord is wisdom himself.


"Because I called and you refused, I stretched out my hand and no one paid attention; And you neglected all my counsel And did not want my reproof; I will also laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your dread comes

Possibly He is speaking of people who wait until death and then try to come to Christ? He does mention when their dread comes.

Whatever it means though, it does not void all the promises in the bible that speak of Gods longsuffering love, and His promise to save all who call upon Jesus from a sincere heart.

 

[RobertZ]

Well it seems to me that you hate your sins and that your regret your decisions, that sounds like a repentant heart to me (and you would not have that heart if the Holy Spirit had left you). Are you so sure you know how the Holy Spirit works? What if all this is His working for you to finally come to the cross?

But I have asked for forgiveness over and over and still have nothing but guilt lingering all over me. My conscience is eaten up with all my sins.

Everyone always says how great and forgiven they feel after getting saved, burden of guilt rolls away. I get none of that.

 

[annrobert]

Robert,
I used to be so scared that I thought none of the good verses applied to me for one reason or another,rather I thought all the negative ones did.But I was so wrong.If we fear we are coming for the wrong motive we simply ask Jesus to change our heart and make all things new.Jesus who wants none to perish and all to be saved and who died for us will love to answer that prayer.Since Jesus is the one who said behold I make all things new and I did not come to condmen but to save,and come to Me all ye that labour and are heavy laden and I will give you rest.I am sure hyprocrites do not come to Jesus saying I surrender and I am sorry and please give me a new heart like King David said.No the hyprocrites prayed like that pharisee who did not recognize he was a sinner and he prayed God I thank I pray and fast twice a week and I do this and that and I thankyou I am not like that sinner over there.The sinner comes to Jesus and says Lord forgive me a sinner ,please change me and save me.The hyprocrite Jesus is talking about thinks he is so good and does not ask for forgiveness and cleansing and changing,no he is self righteous.You Robert are admitting you are a sinner and wanting forgiveness and cleansing and changing.You are safe.trust Jesus who makes all things new and saves to the uttermost.
blessings
annrobert

 

[RobertZ]

Whatever it means though, it does not void all the promises in the bible that speak of Gods longsuffering love, and His promise to save all who call upon Jesus from a sincere heart.

I agree with that, but back in November I just worry about how sincere I was since I basically had no convictions over my sins.

Im worried that I had and still have wordly sorrow that leads to death instead of Godly sorrow that leads to repentance and salvation.

 

[SoldierOfSoul]

But I have asked for forgiveness over and over and still have nothing but guilt lingering all over me. My conscience is eaten up with all my sins.

Everyone always says how great and forgiven they feel after getting saved, burden of guilt rolls away. I get none of that.

But thats because you are not taking Him at His word, you can't just accept His forgivness and then refuse to accept His love for you! You are refusing to believe that He actually wants you and that could not be farther from the truth.

 

[Jesuslovesme29]

But I have asked for forgiveness over and over and still have nothing but guilt lingering all over me. My conscience is eaten up with all my sins.

Everyone always says how great and forgiven they feel after getting saved, burden of guilt rolls away. I get none of that.

Of coarse you have guilt, you never forgave yourself and you still need to accept His forgiveness on everything by Faith. The enemy likes to put guilt toward us and make us feel condemned, that is when we remember scripture that says in

1John for if we confess our sins God is faithful and just to forgive us and to cleanse us of all our unrighteousness.

You are the only one who is holding onto your sins, let them go once and for all

But it is, the spirit of the Lord is wisdom himself.


"Because I called and you refused, I stretched out my hand and no one paid attention; And you neglected all my counsel And did not want my reproof; I will also laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your dread comes

Jesus is truth and wisdom comes from God.

This wisdom speaks of counsel. That is the context of wisdom in proverbs. Not salvation.

 

[SoldierOfSoul]

I agree with that, but back in November I just worry about how sincere I was since I basically had no convictions over my sins.

Im worried that I had and still have wordly sorrow that leads to death instead of Godly sorrow that leads to repentance and salvation.

Not everyone has earth shattering revelations when they come to Christ, it is a walk, but the bible has promised that all who call upon Jesus will be saved, that includes you, just believe that His love for you is genuine and that your decision to ask Jesus in your life was because the Holy Spirit had led you to make that decision, and you chose with your will to do so.

 

[annrobert]

Robert if you are worried that you do not have the right kind of repentance,you can just ask Jesus to give you the right kind and Jesus will be happy to do that.Jesus knows we can do noting of ourselves.He is merciful and gives good things to those who ask Him.Jesus is full of mercy and grace and says come to Me.
blessings
annrobert

 

[annrobert]

That may be true but this isnt what Solomon had in mind when he was writing this passage of scripture

How can we be sure? it sounds the same to me.

 

[RobertZ]

How can we be sure? it sounds the same to me.

Because no one will be searching diligently for God while they are in Hell. It would be useless and they would know it.

 

[SoldierOfSoul]

Because no one will be searching diligently for God while they are in Hell. It would be useless and they would know it.

He probably isn't talking about hell, but whatever he is talking about has to do with dread and calamity. It doesn't say anything about someone with a repentant heart coming to Christ for forgiveness and salvation and then being rejected. I think it has more to do with someone who has rejected God all his life and then maybe one of his family members or something gets sick, he may try to pray but God will not hear him.

Or it could have something to do with waiting until death, when you are in pain and then try to call on God, it could be too late then but I have no way of knowing, I mean the man on the cross beside Christ was about to die and Jesus heard him and gave him salvation, and he was mocking Jesus not to long before that.

But like I said whatever it means, it by no means makes all other verses that speak of Gods love, mercy and longsuffering nature void. The bible makes it clear that He wants all to come to repentance and faith in Christ, I believe the promise holds true for anyone with sincere repentance and who wants Jesus to be Lord of his life.

 

[SoldierOfSoul]

Robert,
I used to be so scared that I thought none of the good verses applied to me for one reason or another,rather I thought all the negative ones did.But I was so wrong.If we fear we are coming for the wrong motive we simply ask Jesus to change our heart and make all things new.Jesus who wants none to perish and all to be saved and who died for us will love to answer that prayer.Since Jesus is the one who said behold I make all things new and I did not come to condmen but to save,and come to Me all ye that labour and are heavy laden and I will give you rest.I am sure hyprocrites do not come to Jesus saying I surrender and I am sorry and please give me a new heart like King David said.No the hyprocrites prayed like that pharisee who did not recognize he was a sinner and he prayed God I thank I pray and fast twice a week and I do this and that and I thankyou I am not like that sinner over there.The sinner comes to Jesus and says Lord forgive me a sinner ,please change me and save me.The hyprocrite Jesus is talking about thinks he is so good and does not ask for forgiveness and cleansing and changing,no he is self righteous.You Robert are admitting you are a sinner and wanting forgiveness and cleansing and changing.You are safe.trust Jesus who makes all things new and saves to the uttermost.
blessings
annrobert

Robert, this is very good what annrobert wrote, it is the truth. True repentance only comes from the Holy Spirit, so if you have a repentant heart that only comes from Him, it is not something you have decided to do. It is the work of God on your behalf! To put it another way, you would not want Him, if He did not want you first.