my experience so far, questions for TAW

[theend0218]

I will attempt to address several posts here briefly [I am rarely brief; all the posts here are excellent; thank you to one and all]. Please know that I know myself to be a sinner; I had/have many ups and downs. I do love Jesus. So, here goes:

I cannot remember not believing in God [I had wonderful parents and grandparents].

God became real to me in a new way at the age of 17.

I wanted nothing more than to live in and with Him at the age of 19/20.

My unfortunate experience was that all I knew of "Church" was that it tended to distort and dampen my experience of God [also, by nature I tend to be a bit rebellious; probably a bit arrogant about some things].

My most unfortunate experience was that due to a variety of things I was asked to share my experience in a formal way and found myself attempting to live out and help others live out an experience in an organization ill suited to it. I could never find a way to make this work for me, although others seemed to benefit from it for a time. I am ill suited for organizations - "formal Church structures."

My Protestantism was formed in the Baptist Tradition; my own understanding of Christianity was, as a young adult, formed from a combination of experiencing God, Puritan-Reformed theology [which, when filtered, is "union with Christ effected by, made read by, and lived out through the Holy Spirit"], and a wonderful little book "Practicing the Presence of God." [Catholic mysticism/spirituality?]

I eventually gave up on any organized group. This has been my journey so far.

Perhaps the closest I have come to finding any meaning in attending a "Church" has been the Episcopal - but the minister eventually attempted to draft me into an associate role and I fled. At the center of every organized group I have experienced so far has been political struggles [power and money always corrupt] or doctrinal word-fights.

I was open to the Episcopal due to a limited knowledge of the Eastern Orthodox Tradition.

After meeting a few of you here in these forums I became interested - obviously I do long for a way to make my own experience work within a group setting. I feel at times I simply need to submit to something.

My issues have been these:

1. I seem to be asked to accept that TAW is the Church of the Apostles.

2. That sacramentalism is the way to experience Christ.

3. That TAW believes only what was always believed and has not "developed" its own theology, liturgy and understanding of the Christian life and experience.

It seems to me that in order to fully participate in TAW one has to intellectually accept things that, for me, are difficult.

Yet, I find the idea of it wonderful. I have longed for such a thing for most of my adult life. The appeal is so strong that I am, once again, seeking to find a way to accept all of this. Hence, my reading, for now.

I know it cannot be found in a book, but, from my perspective what is asked of one seeking a "home" here requires a certain understanding and a faith that this understanding is true. I do not want to become Orthodox "doubting" that it is what Christ offers. Several of the books recommended here seem to address several of my "doubts."

Does this make any sense at all?

Please feel free to address my understanding of the three points listed above and to share anything you think might be helpful.

I find myself at times saying as so many others have undoubtedly said: Lord I believe; help my unbelief.

Again, thank you so much. And Peace to all. Feel free to PM if you want.

 

[Dust and Ashes]

This is probably not what you are wanting to hear but it is my own experience so I share it only as that and and do not say it is what you must do. I had several issues when I came to investigate Orthodoxy, though none of them alone were "deal-breakers" but it still made it difficult.

After struggling with them for a while, I finally asked myself, "Do I believe the Orthodox Church to be the Church that Christ founded?" When I answered yes to that question, I determined to accept whatever the Church taught and to put aside my own opinions and beliefs and be submissive and obedient to the Church.

To very poorly quote Robert Frost, "Two roads diverged in a wood and I--I took the one less traveled by and that has made all the difference."

I wish you peace on your journey and if you would give me a name, I'd love to pray for you.

 

[kamikat]

Converting to the Orthodox Church is a process. You aren't required to believe and accept everything the first time you attend a service. Everything takes time. What's important is having a willingness to learn and being open to truth.

 

[Iacobus]

Converting to the Orthodox Church is a process. You aren't required to believe and accept everything the first time you attend a service. Everything takes time. What's important is having a willingness to learn and being open to truth.

Absolutely true. I agree with forgivensinner001 that each of us had issues when we came to the Church. My advice: resolve to lay aside doubts for a period of time, and simply immerse yourself in the life of the Church. When, perhaps several months later, you revisit those doubts you will likely find that they have simply evaporated. The life of the Church has a way of quietly and simply answering our concerns.

 

[kamikat]

resolve to lay aside doubts for a period of time, and simply immerse yourself in the life of the Church. When, perhaps several months later, you revisit those doubts you will likely find that they have simply evaporated. The life of the Church has a way of quietly and simply answering our concerns.

So what happens if you decide to lay aside those doubts for a while, then they resurface?

 

[Iacobus]

So what happens if you decide to lay aside those doubts for a while, then they resurface?

I can only speak for myself in that regard, but my experience was this:

My strongest doubt or resistance was in the veneration of the Theotokos. That was foreign to my previous experience, and in fact for years I had taught in Sunday School and from the pulpit that she was just an ordinary girl, who later married Joseph and had a bunch of kids. I had a LOT of trouble with the Orthodox concept.

It was finally clear that I could not resolve this conflict intellectually. I could read all I wanted to, but that was not going to convince my heart of the truth about the Virgin. So I consciously resolved to lay it aside for several months. I promised myself that I would just as consciously revisit the issue several months later. In the meantime, I did no reading in particular about her, but just lived the life of the Church, and prayed the prayers.

What I found when I did come back was that there was no longer an issue. In the intervening period, I had unconsciously developed a great love for her.

That experience struck me very forcefully. Now when catechumens come to me with questions, I will discuss the issues with them, but if it appears we are at an impasse, I suggest laying it aside for a definite period of time. More often than not, my own experience is shared by the inquirer.

 

[nikolayalexandroff]

I think may be it will be interesting for you:
Conversion of Timothy Ware

 

[Paisley]

My issues have been these:

1. I seem to be asked to accept that TAW is the Church of the Apostles.

2. That sacramentalism is the way to experience Christ.

3. That TAW believes only what was always believed and has not "developed" its own theology, liturgy and understanding of the Christian life and experience.

1. This seems to be a question of how old is this church, and where are its roots? The Divine Liturgy has its roots in the OT, actually. The Divine Liturgy comes from the Jewish form of worship, and now has Christ as the center of worship.

2. Sacramentalism - It means attaching an importance to something. If the body and blood of Christ are not sacred, then what will it do for you? Nothing! The fact is, the Bible states that Jesus said, "This is my blood, this is my body." Matthew 26:26-28

3. Again, refer to #1.

 

[ClementofRome]

My experience was/is not unlike your own. Over time I rejected Sola Scriptura and when I did that a great burden was lifted. I began studying the Apostolic Fathers in particular and the later Church Fathers more broadly and found that the Church, as it existed for the first 1000 years was in fact that Church of the Apostles. The evolution of doctrine was not an evolution as it were, but more of a solidifying of the Doctrines that were being taught and the Councils were called to clarify Doctrine and head off heresy.

Additionally, I began to sicken of Protestant worship. The dog and pony show just did not do it. The jokes, the humor, the lack of reverence, the flippant nature of the 11 o'clock hour....or the sappy emotionalism found in some.... When I attended my first D/L I was blown away. With very little study discovered that a liturgical form of worship was the norm for the majority of the existence of the Church and knew that I had found the truth. Let's face it, the Liturgy of St. John Crysostom (even tough modifed from time to time throughout history) is basically the same Liturgy that has been served for 1600 years...amazing.

Additionally, I taught a 4-month Sunday School class on Holy Communion last year in the United Methodist Church that we had been attending. I was using a document that was prepared by the UMC that was encouraging Methodists to consider going to weekly Communion. During that study, I became completely convinced that the Eucharist was to be the pinnacle of worship. The last day of that Sunday School class was the last time I was in a Protestant church.

I know that this does not directly have a bearing on each of your issues, but I hope it helps.

 

[eoe]

1. I seem to be asked to accept that TAW is the Church of the Apostles.

TAW is a forum on a website but I am going to assume that you are talking about the Eastern Orthodox Church.
The EOC is the church that was founded on pentecost in 33ad. Yes I realize that is a hugh claim.

2. That sacramentalism is the way to experience Christ.

The Holy Mysteries (sacraments) are a very direct and powerful way in which to experience GRACE. We do not place limits on Christ - he can and will do that which pleases him.

 

[theend0218]

TAW is a forum on a website but I am going to assume that you are talking about the Eastern Orthodox Church.
The EOC is the church that was founded on pentecost in 33ad. Yes I realize that is a hugh claim.


The Holy Mysteries (sacraments) are a very direct and powerful way in which to experience GRACE. We do not place limits on Christ - he can and will do that which pleases him.

Most excellent assumption! I apologize. I see TAW in the GT forum at times as though some use it to refer to the EO Church. But, yes, I do indeed mean the Eastern Orthodox Church.

Thanks for your response.

 

[Paisley]

TAW is a forum on a website but I am going to assume that you are talking about the Eastern Orthodox Church.

Actually, if I may ... the early Church was referred to in Testament times as "The Way"

 

[theend0218]

My experience was/is not unlike your own. Over time I rejected Sola Scriptura and when I did that a great burden was lifted. I began studying the Apostolic Fathers in particular and the later Church Fathers more broadly and found that the Church, as it existed for the first 1000 years was in fact that Church of the Apostles. The evolution of doctrine was not an evolution as it were, but more of a solidifying of the Doctrines that were being taught and the Councils were called to clarify Doctrine and head off heresy.

Additionally, I began to sicken of Protestant worship. The dog and pony show just did not do it. The jokes, the humor, the lack of reverence, the flippant nature of the 11 o'clock hour....or the sappy emotionalism found in some.... When I attended my first D/L I was blown away. With very little study discovered that a liturgical form of worship was the norm for the majority of the existence of the Church and knew that I had found the truth. Let's face it, the Liturgy of St. John Crysostom (even tough modifed from time to time throughout history) is basically the same Liturgy that has been served for 1600 years...amazing.

Additionally, I taught a 4-month Sunday School class on Holy Communion last year in the United Methodist Church that we had been attending. I was using a document that was prepared by the UMC that was encouraging Methodists to consider going to weekly Communion. During that study, I became completely convinced that the Eucharist was to be the pinnacle of worship. The last day of that Sunday School class was the last time I was in a Protestant church.

I know that this does not directly have a bearing on each of your issues, but I hope it helps.

I think I am not far away. I do not know that I could ever believe in Scripture alone, although it was a good fall back position when pushed. I do not think I had "felt" how Scripture and Tradition move together until this past weekend. I fear someone has been praying for me! If so, please continue.

I want to read a few more books that have been suggested. Your example is one I can follow here - I want to read more in the Early Church Fathers.

However, as so many have suggested, I think I need to lay some of my fears and concerns aside for a while and go see for myself.

I appreciate your help so much.

 

[theend0218]

1. This seems to be a question of how old is this church, and where are its roots? The Divine Liturgy has its roots in the OT, actually. The Divine Liturgy comes from the Jewish form of worship, and now has Christ as the center of worship.

2. Sacramentalism - It means attaching an importance to something. If the body and blood of Christ are not sacred, then what will it do for you? Nothing! The fact is, the Bible states that Jesus said, "This is my blood, this is my body." Matthew 26:26-28

3. Again, refer to #1.

Thank you. I am beginning to envision what I have only struggled with intellectually, and it is perhaps something of an emotional issue as well. That was confusing - perhaps it will communicate, though. I welcome all prayers and guidance.

 

[theend0218]

I think may be it will be interesting for you:
Conversion of Timothy Ware

Thank you. I have added it to my reading list. Peace.

 

[Paisley]

We appreciate your questions, theend0218! Peace.