My Embedded Age Challenge

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Uphill Battle

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Actually, I go by faith in science that this earth is as old as they say it is. I'll gladly acquiesce though if shown otherwise.
Why, if you have such a problem with the scientific institution stating that the world was "big bang" formed, (to the point, void of a creator, doesn't matter what theory you want to forward) do you have such an easy time accepting what they say about the age of the earth itself? I'm a creationist myself, I just am puzzled by the double standard.
 
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AV1611VET

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Why, if you have such a problem with the scientific institution stating that the world was "big bang" formed, (to the point, void of a creator, doesn't matter what theory you want to forward) do you have such an easy time accepting what they say about the age of the earth itself? I'm a creationist myself, I just am puzzled by the double standard.
It's not a double standard, it's a paradox; one that's easily cleared up when one realizes that Big Bang contradicts a literal rendering of Genesis One, whereas the actual age of the earth does not.
 
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lawtonfogle

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The reason we're "having trouble" answering it is because it is incredibly vague.

Let me give you my own apple challenge. I have a piece of fruit on my desk. Demonstrate that it is an apple, why it is an apple, and don't be wrong.
The next three statements are true.
The previous statement is false.
There is a piece of fruit on you desk.
That piece of fruit is an apple.
QED
 
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Split Rock

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This is of course, you think the world looks millions of years old to begin with, right? :D

Hey Uphill Battle.. long time no see. :wave:

Even professional YECs admit that the Earth looks very old... they just claim the Bible says otherwise. Do you think the Earth looks young?
 
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Uphill Battle

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Hey Uphill Battle.. long time no see. :wave:

Even professional YECs admit that the Earth looks very old... they just claim the Bible says otherwise. Do you think the Earth looks young?
nah. 10,000 years is pretty old too... so it would look old to me either way. I'm not even up to a century yet. :D

good to see you too.

Subjective observation: I never, even previous to being a Christian, thought the earth looked millions of years old. I don't buy that anyone has genealogically figured out the EXACT age of the earth either.
 
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MoonLancer

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No, I haven't.

Since you guys are such "experts" on showing God to be a deceiver, and my Embedded Age explanation to be wrong, I thought this little challenge would be a snap for you to answer.

Apparently you guys aren't half the "experts" you think you are.

Anyone can simply say my Embedded Age is wrong because that would make God a deceiver; but proving it is something else though --- isn't it?

:)

In your analogy, God is not a deceiver, but in the real life example of the world and the bible, he is. This is because your analogy is not a good analogy. Its missing key components. Yet you knew this already.

People asked specific questions to clarify the analogy or the challenge but you refuse to answer because you KNOW that by giving a 1:1 analogy, GOD IS A DECEIVER. Winning by semantics and fallacy is intellectual death.
 
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MasterOfKrikkit

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No, I haven't.
Well perhaps there's your problem.

Since you guys are such "experts" on showing God to be a deceiver, and my Embedded Age explanation to be wrong, I thought this little challenge would be a snap for you to answer.

Apparently you guys aren't half the "experts" you think you are.

Anyone can simply say my Embedded Age is wrong because that would make God a deceiver; but proving it is something else though --- isn't it?

:)

No it's quite easy, here's the proof:

According to you the Earth came into being 6000 years ago and God provided documentation to that effect. However there is sufficient evidence that the Earth has much more than 6000 years' worth of age. Regardless of whether you claim that God created the Earth with the appearance of age or with "age embedded" (whatever that might mean), it doesn't escape the fact that the documentation doesn't agree with the physical evidence (being the creation itself). Even a being of limited intelligence, let alone an omniscient one, would realize the problem that this would cause. So what are the options? (1) God is stupid. (2) God is deceptive -- ie God knows that there is a contradiction but doesn't care. (3) The documentation (or at least the way you're interpreting it) is incorrect. (4) There really isn't a contradiction.

(1) and (2) also contradict the documentation; hence we can't accept them as a way out of our problem. You want (4) so that you can avoid (3) but your attempt at explaining (4) requires that an omniscient being, who obviously knew the potential confusion caused by contradictory documentation and evidence, didn't think to include the explanation in the documentation. This in turn implies that either God didn't think about it too much, bringing us back to (1) and thus contradicting omniscience, or deliberately left it out. Deliberately leaving out an explanation that is critical to people* avoiding making a terrible mistake... well, what would you call it? I'd call it deceptive, which again contradicts the documentation.

The only way out of the continual contradictions is (3).

BTW, that's actually the point. When people say that God is deceptive, they're trying to show the fallacy in your YEC/EAC beliefs, not that God is actually deceptive. It's called a reductio ad absurdum (or proof by contradiction): accepting proposition X leads to a contradiction or obviously false statement, ergo X is false. Please try to understand this. It's not that hard.


Now, all that said... if this challenge is somehow supposed to demonstrate a flaw in this reasoning, perhaps you could just answer my fairly reasonable request for clarification of your question (ie does "without being wrong" imply that you did not, in fact, have motive to deceive when you created the man?). It's your challenge, surely you know the premises involved.


*AFAICT, "people" means potentially anyone since the end of the 18th century, minus you and your pastor and, presumably, a handful of others at your church.
 
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MrGoodBytes

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Please respect the OP as I wrote it. If you can't show deception and intent to deceive, without being wrong, then please don't clutter up this thread with non sequitur responses --- thanks.
How is anything I wrote a non sequitur? There is no deception involved in the OP - do you want only people with the wrong answer to post?
 
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MrGoodBytes

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Please respect the OP as I wrote it. If you can't show deception and intent to deceive, without being wrong, then please don't clutter up this thread with non sequitur responses --- thanks.
Agreeing with your point, as irrelevant it may be, is a non sequitur?
 
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Freodin

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I speak this man into existence ex nihilo on 11 Jul 08 with a note in his pocket saying I spoke this man into existence ex nihilo on 11 Jul 08.

images


Show this to be an act of deception, and show the intent to deceive, without being wrong.

That´s easy.

There is no man. There is only a painting, which appears to depict an eldery, bearded human male, but also a horse and rider and other optical fancies.

You claimed to have created a man, but didn´t. Your claim is incorrect.

Now we are also to assume that you (God) is incapable of making mistakes - you (he) is infallible. That only leaves the option that the incorrectness of your claim is deliberate... you set out to deceive us.

q.e.d.
 
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MasterOfKrikkit

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I read this entire thread, but still don't know the correct answer.
Is there one?

Whatever AV has preordained the correct answer to be. Anyone who gives an actual answer (eg Freodin) or who asks for clarification of the OP (several people) will be dismissed, and AV will then -- in another thread -- claim to have "pwned" us all and QV everyone here.

Business as usual, IOW. Fun, huh?
 
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