My Ecliptic Challenge

[RaiseTheDead]

You're joking, right?

B --- for the win.

Momentum = mass x velocity --- God simply told momentum to 'stand down' --- ('take a hike').

I met momentum while hiking the Appalachian trail once. A slippery log was involved, but it would've been nice if God had told momentum to stop hiking before it met me!

 

[RaiseTheDead]

AV, Is there any other reference to the day actually being longer (or the sun/earth actually stop rotating)? Or is Joshua 10:13 the only one?

Couldn't the Joshua passage be interpreted in a figurative way that god simply helped Israel win the battle really fast which made it *seem* the day was lengthened because the enormous task was accomplished in such a short time?

- Ectezus

I bet it seemed like FOREVER to those on the losing side! In addition to all other hermeneutic concerns, the geography of this location is overwhelmingly significant. You would be blinded by the sun, magnified by Israel's shields. Imagine needing to look in that direction because your life truly depends on it; you would swear it stood still.

 

[TLK Valentine]

I am sure because that is what the Bible says. You seem to want to argue that God is not Just. Yet I am convinced that God is absolute perfect Justice. His scales are perfectly balanced. [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]
[/FONT]

The Amorites would disagree -- if He and Joshua hadn't killed them all.

It's an irritating little detail you're trying to pretend isn't there.

 

[TLK Valentine]

This is a Jewish story, correct? And how do the Jews teach this story? (Speaking of context)

It's the same God, isn't it?

 

[TLK Valentine]

Obviously, you are not familiar with the related accounts. I thought you linked me to this thread so I could see some atheists accounting for hermeneutics?

Actually, I wasn't addressing you. But as long as you're here...

You utterly disappoint. No historical context, no linguistic considerations, no cultural framework; no desire to know the truth of what the text conveys, apparently.

Enlighten me.

 

[RaiseTheDead]

Actually, I wasn't addressing you. But as long as you're here... Enlighten me.

Posting on open forum is an open address. I asked you if you knew how Jews teach this, considering it is a Jewish story. You seemed to poo-poo that idea.
If you have any inclination to understand, you must factor in the fact they teach it never happened, and wasn't inspired by God at all. Does that disappoint you?

Further, some large, mainstream sects of Christianity (Anglican /Episcopal and at least a couple others, Methodists and Presbyterians I think but don't quote me on those last 2 as I'm not sure) teach the same. I don't mean to rain on your parade, but facts do seem relevant.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Posting on open forum is an open address. I asked you if you knew how Jews teach this, considering it is a Jewish story. You seemed to poo-poo that idea.

If you have any inclination to understand, you must factor in the fact they teach it never happened, and wasn't inspired by God at all. Does that disappoint you?

Not at all -- I've got plenty of Christians who swear that it did.

But, Christians have been hijacking Jewish mythology for well over a millenia now, with little to no thought (or care) as to what they thought of it, so it's really nothing new under the Sun.

Further, some large, mainstream sects of Christianity (Anglican /Episcopal and at least a couple others, Methodists and Presbyterians I think but don't quote me on those last 2 as I'm not sure) teach the same. I don't mean to rain on your parade, but facts do seem relevant.

So some of mainstream Christianity is ready to admit that some sections of the Bible never happened. Well, ignoring the fact that in the case of the Caananites, at least, modern archaeology has rendered that conclusion more or less inevitable, I say bravo for them. (better late than never, after all).

Now, they just have to get the rest of Christianity up to speed. And then, perhaps, the truly miraculous task of shaking the OP free of his mistaken ideas on the matter...


... after all, can you believe that he's still trying to use this event to poo-poo* science?


*I like that phrase! Mind if I steal it?

 

[RaiseTheDead]

*I like that phrase! Mind if I steal it?

I hardly invented it, it's been in use for decades; but - hiking science can be poo poo'd?

 

[TLK Valentine]

I hardly invented it, it's been in use for decades; but - hiking science can be poo poo'd?

I know, but I just thought I'd give you credit.

Incidentally, I'm a little new to the notion that the Jews say Joshua wasn't inspired by God and didn't happen. I've heard the notion expressed on atheist sites, of course, to to get it from a religious source, especially a Jewish one... well, it seems my Google-fu is weak today. Can you point me in the right direction?

And of course, you realize that not only AV1611VET, but a lot of other Christians, are going to be all over you for this one, since you're basically saying that Paul, who explicitly said that all Scripture is inspired by God, was wrong.

Just a heads up -- this could get nasty.

 

[RaiseTheDead]

You still haven't caught up yet. What i have said, is what Jews teach, and that some large segments of Christianity have also taken up that mantra. Nothing more, except that this is an important consideration for you, considering the subject matter you raised, which is complex.

 

[quatona]

Explain how an object moving along --- or stopped in --- its ecliptic path so violates science that a miracle-performing, omnipotent God cannot allow it to happen.

Use Joshua 10:13 as your example.

Sounds like you are attempting a refutation of the fine-tuning argument.

 

[Jamin4422]

This is a Jewish story, correct?

When you get an advanced education in Bible School they teach basic rules for understanding the Bible. First of course you look at the origional people the Bible was written for. Then you look at the message the Bible has for us today. There are some passages that are JUST written for us today, they have no application for the origional Jewish people. But for the most part the Bible has a message for them and a message for us today. In fact the Bible has a message for every generation that ever was and every generation that will ever be.

If people want to agree or disagree with the message then I guess that is their choice. But it seems to me for people to pretend they do not understand the meaning of the Bible is not a very good way to disagree. Why would people want to leave the impression that they do not understand the Bible or they do not know what the Bible says? People think it is wrong to disregard the so called experts in Science, yet they think it is alright to disregard the experts in the Bible. That is a double standard. When they have not studied the Bible and when they know nothing about the Bible, then they are not qualified to comment. Any more then someone could comment on a branch of Science they have never studied.

It's the same God, isn't it?

God is the same, He does not change. He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. I hear people say they are waiting on God. Actually it is God that is waiting on them. Nothing is going to change or be any different with Him.

 

[TLK Valentine]

When you get an advanced education in Bible School they teach basic rules for understanding the Bible. First of course you look at the origional people the Bible was written for. Then you look at the message the Bible has for us today. There are some passages that are JUST written for us today, they have no application for the origional Jewish people. But for the most part the Bible has a message for them and a message for us today. In fact the Bible has a message for every generation that ever was and every generation that will ever be.

That's an interesting idea -- The Jews wrote something , considered it inspired by God, and kept it a part of their sacred tradition for hundreds (if not thousands) of years, BUT it meant absolutely nothing to them -- it was a special message just for people who wouldn't exist until now... namely, you.

Tell me, does that "Bible School" offer refunds?

If people want to agree or disagree with the message then I guess that is their choice. But it seems to me for people to pretend they do not understand the meaning of the Bible is not a very good way to disagree.

Well, according to RaiseTheDead, there are parts of the Bible which weren't inspired by God and didn't happen -- at least that's what the original authors say.

I don't know if you agree with his conclusions, but you do seem to agree with his method of making assertion after assertion without a shred of evidence to back it up.

Why would people want to leave the impression that they do not understand the Bible or they do not know what the Bible says?

Better still, why would people want to pass themselves off as knowing what the Bible by making assertions that are easily contradicted by passages within it?

People think it is wrong to disregard the so called experts in Science, yet they think it is alright to disregard the experts in the Bible. That is a double standard.

True, but anyone who calls himself an expert, in either science or the Bible, had best be prepared to back up their comments -- and had best hope their comments aren't easily refuted.

When they have not studied the Bible and when they know nothing about the Bible, then they are not qualified to comment.

Agreed -- and when they do comment, and their comment is easily shown to be false, any explicit or implicit claims of being an "expert" are and should be called into question.

Any more then someone could comment on a branch of Science they have never studied.

Agreed -- there is only one standard -- "experts" should be put to the test, and if they should be found wanting...

God is the same, He does not change. He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

In other words, He is the same today as He was when He slaughtered the Amorites, and will never change.

I hear people say they are waiting on God. Actually it is God that is waiting on them. Nothing is going to change or be any different with Him.

And that's not a comforting thought for anyone in a personal relationship.

 

[Criada]

Mod Hat On

​

This thread has been cleaned.
Stick to the topic please, folks, and cut out the personal insults.

Mod Hat Off​

 

[TLK Valentine]

You still haven't caught up yet. What i have said, is what Jews teach, and that some large segments of Christianity have also taken up that mantra. Nothing more, except that this is an important consideration for you, considering the subject matter you raised, which is complex.

Except there's absolutely nothing out there which indicates that what you have said is what the Jews teach. Whether or not large segments of Christianity have taken it up (and many have not) is based more on Archaeology and history than the Jews.

Would you kindly provide a link to any Jewish source that supports the assertion that you have made?

 

[miamited]

Explain how an object moving along --- or stopped in --- its ecliptic path so violates science that a miracle-performing, omnipotent God cannot allow it to happen.

Use Joshua 10:13 as your example.

Hi,

Well, I've read a few of the posts to kind of catch up, but here's my understanding of 'how' God caused the event to happen. However, I freely admit that it is based solely on man's knowledge of the solar system and not God's knowledge of all things.

What we do know by the account is that the sun stood in approximately the same place in the sky for about the length of a whole day. For this effect, from what we know of the operation of our solar system, the earth would have had to stop rotating. It is the earth's axular rotation that causes the phenomenon we see as the sun rising in the morning and traveling across the expanse of the sky to set on the opposite horizon in the evening. It is not the movement of the sun itself that creates this effect. Therefore, for the sun to appear in pretty much the same place in the sky above one particular place on the earth for several hours, the rotation of the earth would have to stop.

However, if it is true that if the earth did stop suddenly that there would be great catastrophe upon the earth, then there is another way that the same effect could have been achieved without the earth stopping. That would be for the sun to begin an orbit around the earth at roughly the same speed as the earth is rotating.

Either of these scenarios would achieve what the Scriptures account as happening on that day. I absolutley believe it did happen, but outside of the two possibilities given here I don't know how God does the things that He does. I just know that He does.

I don't know 'how' God created the heavens and the earth in 6 days, I just know that He did. Sadly, this is one of the weaknesses of man. We have a drive to try and understand the 'how' of everything and unfortunately, when God is involved, the 'how' of things is usually not explainable.

I don't know 'how' Jesus' death takes the place of my death, but God has told me that it has and so I believe it.

I don't know 'how' a peasant Jewish woman found herself pregnant one day and yet had never had sexual relations with a man, but God has told that He did it and so I believe it.

I don't know 'how' it could be possible to flood the whole earth to a depth of at least 20 feet on the highest mountaint, but God has told me that He did and so I believe it.

I don't know 'how' it could be even remotely possible that in one single night of history, among a nation of people, every first born human being and cattle could be found inexplicably dead the next morning, but God said that He did it and I believe it.

I don't know 'how' it could be at all possible that a shadow thrown by the sun across a set of stairs could go backwards one whole step except to admit that not only would the earth have had to stop, but actually go backwards. But because God has written to me that it did, I believe it!

Again, the unfortunate delimma of man is that he will not rest until he can 'prove' a suitable answer for miracles and I'm confident that if something happened that is a miracle, well, by definition there is no 'provable' answer for 'how' it happened, but we keep trying and in our frustration we turn away from believing God. Paul warned us of just such a problem.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[sandwiches]

Explain how an object moving along --- or stopped in --- its ecliptic path so violates science that a miracle-performing, omnipotent God cannot allow it to happen.

Use Joshua 10:13 as your example.

So, we have to explain how magic can break the laws we observe in nature?

Seems like that's your responsibility. Get to it, chief!

 

[bobsterInJapan]

Supposing we have a helical solar system, then, in theory, the sun might have done an 'eddy' or a loop centered about the earth for one day and carried on its way. Whose to say the sun travels in a straight line?

 

[The Engineer]

Supposing we have a helical solar system, then, in theory, the sun might have done an 'eddy' or a loop centered about the earth for one day and carried on its way. Whose to say the sun travels in a straight line?

Every scientist, ever?

There's no evidence that suggest the sun ever did something like that. We must assume it didn't.

 

[pgp_protector]

So, we have to explain how magic can break the laws we observe in nature?

Seems like that's your responsibility. Get to it, chief!

Last Activity: 24th July 2012