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My Creationist Challenge

Hespera

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Challenge is for you to tell us if any of you ever agreed that you were wrong about anything when it came to an evo / creo discussion.

edited for clarity:

- brought up in such a discussion as a point for creation and against evolution / deep time.

- didnt involve just trading one creo idea for another.
 
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AV1611VET

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Challenge is for you to tell us if any of you ever agreed that you were wrong about anything when it came to an evo / creo discussion.
No -- I have never agreed that I was wrong about anything when it came to an evo / creo discussion -- (that I can remember, anyway).
 
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hollyda

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No -- I have never agreed that I was wrong about anything when it came to an evo / creo discussion -- (that I can remember, anyway).

How many creation stories are there in Genesis? (If more than one -- Which one is the right one? Why?)
 
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hollyda

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I take it you have rationalized the two accounts, then. I'd like to know how. [Source]

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The First Creation Story; Genesis 1:1 to 2:3: Historical Christianity taught that the entire Pentateuch -- the five books from Genesis to Deuteronomy -- was written by Moses. Most fundamentalist and other Evangelical Christians continue to follow this belief. Most liberal and mainline theologians and religious skeptics accept the Documentary Hypothesis: that the Pentateuch was written by a number of authors (or groups of authors). They followed four different traditions, and imported some material from nearby Pagan sources. The Hypothesis asserts that the author of the creation story seen in the first verses of the Bible was an anonymous 6th Century BCE writer or group of writers of the priestly tradition (often referred to as "P"). Creation is described in Genesis 1:1 to 2:3 as occurring in six "days":
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Day 1: God commanded the presence of light and its separation from darkness.
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Day 2: God separated the sky and oceans.
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Day 3: God separated land from the oceans; spreading of plants and grass and trees across the land.
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Day 4: God caused the sun, moon, and stars to be attached to the underside of the firmament -- a dome that covered the earth.
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Day 5: God ordered the sea to "teem with living creatures" and birds to fly in the air.
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Day 6: God ordered the land to produce land animals. God created humans, "someone like ourselves" (Living Bible).
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Day 7: God rested. Followers of the Documentary Hypothesis believe this to have been a later addition, 4 placed there to give theological justification for the Sabbath (Saturday as a day of rest) for humans. This sequence does contain some problems.
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Light was listed as appearing on day 1, but its source (the sun and stars) did not appear until day 4. Most creation scientists, who generally support the literal interpretation of this creation story, have a solution to this puzzle. Many say that light initially came from God, before he created the sun and stars.
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Birds were said to have appeared before other land animals. Paleontologists, who almost universally support the theory of evolution, point out that the fossil record shows the opposite order. Creation scientists discount this belief. Most regard the rock layers containing the fossil record as having been laid down during the flood of Noah; thus, the fossils do not represent the evolution of the species of animals and birds.
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The most controversial debate over this creation story relates to its time span. Genesis 1 and 2 explain how Creation of Earth's life forms, the Earth itself, and the rest of the universe took six days. Supporters of the theory of evolution find evidence for a universe that has been evolving for about 14 billion years.
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The Second Creation Story; Genesis 2:4 to 2:25: This is a different description of the creation of earth's life forms. Most mainline and liberal biblical researchers attribute this section to "J," a writer who lived in the 9th century BCE (some say 10th century; others say after the Babylonian exile). Again, religious conservatives trace the authorship to Moses, and generally believe that this is a simple restatement of the earlier creation story. The author of Genesis 2 writes that
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at first, there were no plants or grain present, because God had not yet sent rain.
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God made Adam out of earth; this is a belief common to many early Pagan religions in the Middle East.
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God created plants and herbs, Adam, the Garden of Eden, trees, birds and animals
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God performed the first surgical operation, removing a rib from Adam and transforming it into the first woman, Eve. For hundreds of years, medical students were taught that men had one fewer rib than women. Finally, someone checked.
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Conflicts between the creation stories: There are some apparent inconsistencies between the first and second creation accounts:
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There may be a conflict over the number of days over which creation happened.
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Genesis 1:3 and subsequent verses say that God created the universe in six days.
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In Genesis 2:4, some translations, including the King James Version, imply that it took one day. More details
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In the first account, fruit trees appeared before before Adam and Eve; in the second account, God created Adam, then the fruit trees appeared, then Eve.
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In the first account, God created animals before Adam and Eve; in the second account, God created Adam. then the animals, then Eve.
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Genesis 1:20 describes how God had "the waters bring forth ...fowl" ; in Genesis 2:19, God formed them "out of the ground".
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In the first account, God caused fish to appear on the 5th day; in the second account, the fish of the sea were not created at all.
 
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AV1611VET

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I take it you have rationalized the two accounts, then.
Whose thread is this, anyway?

I should stop right here and claim that I have answered Hespera's challenge; but since I'm a sucker for being accused of sidetracking threads, I'll see if I can find my reconciliation of the two accounts and qv you to it.
 
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hollyda

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Whose thread is this, anyway?

I should stop right here and claim that I have answered Hespera's challenge; but since I'm a sucker for being accused of sidetracking threads, I'll see if I can find my reconciliation of the two accounts and qv you to it.

Okey dokey. Just wondering. :thumbsup:
 
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Doveaman

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Challenge is for you to tell us if any of you ever agreed that you were wrong about anything when it came to an evo / creo discussion.
As a creo I don't recall being wrong about anything. But this is only because the evos haven't proven themselves right about anything.
 
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Lion Hearted Man

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Here we go -- right on cue -- :thumbsup:

The thought police are here.

You have been wrong so many times on evolution. I have tried so many times, for example, to demonstrate how you've been wrong about macro and microevolution. You simply don't listen though. Mental blocks keep you from admitting you are wrong about something.

Because your Boolean standards won't allow for you to be wrong. Ever.
 
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AV1611VET

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You have been wrong so many times on evolution.
Ya -- the first thing I learned when I came here five years ago, was that Abiogenesis and Evolution are two different things.

I'm assuming the OP means, do we admit we're wrong about the creation aspects.
 
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AV1611VET

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Because your Boolean standards won't allow for you to be wrong. Ever.
FYI, when science gets it wrong, so do I, because of my Boolean standards.

For the longest time, I thought Pluto was a planet and that the Coelacanth was extinct.

Now I realize that Pluto has been downgraded to 'dwarf planet', and the Coelacanth has been upgraded to 'alive'.

I can't be any more myopic and gullible as earth's best scientists, can I?
 
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Lion Hearted Man

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FYI, when science gets it wrong, so do I, because of my Boolean standards.

For the longest time, I thought Pluto was a planet and that the Coelacanth was extinct.

Now I realize that Pluto has been downgraded to 'dwarf planet', and the Coelacanth has been upgraded to 'alive'.

I can't be any more myopic and gullible as earth's best scientists, can I?

This is the problem though - you view being wrong as a detriment in science. Being wrong means you can learn something when you prove yourself wrong. That's the whole point of science - trying to prove yourself wrong. So where you see glaring faults in science with Coelocanths turning up, but it's a victory for science because we learn more.
 
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Doveaman

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This is the problem though - you view being wrong as a detriment in science. Being wrong means you can learn something when you prove yourself wrong.
The only thing we learn from being wrong is that we are wrong.
That's the whole point of science - trying to prove yourself wrong. So where you see glaring faults in science with Coelocanths turning up, but it's a victory for science because we learn more.
Only in science is being wrong a victory.

In Christianity faith is the victory.

In science wrong is the victory.

I think I'll stick with faith. You can stick with wrong.
 
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TheReasoner

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As a creo I don't recall being wrong about anything. But this is only because the evos haven't proven themselves right about anything.

...
Here:
Amazon.com: Biology, 7th Edition (Book & CD-ROM) (9780805371468): Neil A. Campbell, Jane B. Reece: Books
Amazon.com: Lehninger Principles of Biochemistry 5th Fifth Edition: David L. Nelson: Books
Amazon.com: Biotechnology for Beginners (9780123735812): Reinhard Renneberg, Arnold L. Demain: Books

The Renneberg book is a good starting point. It's easy to understand for leymen. The other two provide a decent fundamental understanding of some necessary things. I can recommend these books because both my wife and I use them. So we're familiar with them. Ask the other people here with relevant educations for more advanced literature.

THat said: Before you start saying that "the evos" have it wrong, perhaps you should learn what evolution is beyond the basics you learn at high school?
 
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